The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 146

[regwec]

The script throughout TDKR was pretty weak, and Gordon got some rough treatment, but for me that highlights his achievement in continuing to sell the character very well.

 

[batfreakforever]

The script wasn't weak. Just not what the people that hate it wanted. It's right because it's what Chris Nolan and co wanted to tell their final film. It's their vision. Fans shouldn't dictate how the script should be because it's not their story in the end is it. It's the film-makers story of Bruce Wayne.

 

[BatLobster]

Nolan tends to consistently get good performances out of all his principles. Probably because they all respect the hell out of him and love the material.

 

[batfreakforever]

Yeah we can all not like a film and such but if you don't like it then you don't like it but to say things about the script or story direction is a personal view not a fault of the film-makers. To me everything that Nolan has presented to me in his vision/films of Batman has been correct in my eyes. 100%.

 

[shauner111]

It's about what the story calls for, not "it's Gordon, he did this and that in the previous films of the franchise so let's make sure he's just as confident doing all those crazy things again". This story called for the older, weathered man who was on his way out. Not giving him an active role all the time is what fit the arc they were telling. It's like following a person's career or real life, theres going to be ups and downs. Not every story in the trilogy called for a TDK-like active role from Gordon. He went all out in TDK, it was time to pull back for the next one.

The story needs to dictate the character's decisions, not "NEW MOVIE, K RIDDLER IS THE VILLAIN I GUESS!? CUZ HE'S THE NEXT POPULAR ONE! NOW LET'S WRITE A STORY AROUND HIM". Nolan does the opposite. With his characters, villains, all of them. Story comes first people. If you didn't like the story no problem but it's still the most important thing.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

The story needs to dictate the character's decisions, not "NEW MOVIE, K RIDDLER IS THE VILLAIN I GUESS!? CUZ HE'S THE NEXT POPULAR ONE! NOW LET'S WRITE A STORY AROUND HIM". Nolan does the opposite. With his characters, villains, all of them. Story comes first people. If you didn't like the story no problem but it's still the most important thing.

Nobody is implying that the story shouldn't come first... however, no matter how big or small, how significant or insignificant, Gordon's scenes should have been better writen within the context of the story.

I liked Gordon's role, it simply could have been executed better.

 

[Shikamaru]

The script wasn't weak. Just not what the people that hate it wanted. It's right because it's what Chris Nolan and co wanted to tell their final film. It's their vision. Fans shouldn't dictate how the script should be because it's not their story in the end is it. It's the film-makers story of Bruce Wayne.

I disagree. The script was weak. It is the weakest script of all of the films Nolan made IMO. I'm talking all the Nolan films and not just his Batman films.

There are a lot of great ideas in the film and great scenes if you take them out of context but the movie suffers as a whole when you put everything together.

Let me put it this way. Picture something great. Now picture something else that is great. You would (naturally) love to see both of those things in a film. However, when you sit down and think about it, the second great thing either contradicts the first great thing or makes it not make as much sense in the context of the film anymore.

 

[kvz5]

I think I'll miss Bale's Batman and Oldman's Gordon the most.

Batman/Gordon is the best pairing in the trilogy for me followed by Bruce/Alfred. Nolan's Batman might not have a constant love interest throughout the trilogy but his relationships with Gordon, Alfred, and Fox make up for it. There was great natural chemistry in these pairings.

 

[Shikamaru]

Batman/Gordon is the best pairing in the trilogy for me followed by Bruce/Alfred. Nolan's Batman might not have a constant love interest throughout the trilogy but his relationships with Gordon, Alfred, and Fox make up for it. There was great natural chemistry in these pairings.

I agree.

 

[Brain Damage]

The script wasn't weak. Just not what the people that hate it wanted. It's right because it's what Chris Nolan and co wanted to tell their final film. It's their vision. Fans shouldn't dictate how the script should be because it's not their story in the end is it. It's the film-makers story of Bruce Wayne.

Stop making excuses for people. A lot of us found the script to be weak, not because it wasn't what we wanted, but because... guess what... we thought it was weak. The Dark Knight wasn't what I wanted, but that's a very strong script right there. TDKR's script is filled with lazy dialogue ("No, I came back to stop you." "The Clean Slate? Where you blah blah blah, blah blah blah"), plot conveniences (Bruce finding a way into Gotham off screen, Bruce and Selina falling in love and running away together after barely a handful of interactions just because the story needs them to, all of the cops in Gotham going into the sewers at once) and some very uneven pacing.

Maybe to you these things are not problems, or you didn't find them to be weak. But plenty of us did, so please, do not make excuses that we didn't like it because it wasn't what we wanted.

 

[The Joker]

Stop making excuses for people. A lot of us found the script to be weak, not because it wasn't what we wanted, but because... guess what... we thought it was weak. The Dark Knight wasn't what I wanted, but that's a very strong script right there. TDKR's script is filled with lazy dialogue ("No, I came back to stop you." "The Clean Slate? Where you blah blah blah, blah blah blah"), plot conveniences (Bruce finding a way into Gotham off screen, Bruce and Selina falling in love and running away together after barely a handful of interactions just because the story needs them to, all of the cops in Gotham going into the sewers at once) and some very uneven pacing.

Maybe to you these things are not problems, or you didn't find them to be weak. But plenty of us did, so please, do not make excuses that we didn't like it because it wasn't what we wanted.

Hear hear

No offense, batfreakforever, but your kind of attitude is the reason Nolan fans have a bad rep and the term 'Nolanite' was invented.

 

[Snow Queen]

I feel Begins had the weakest script myself. Still a very strong script and one of the best in genre but I felt it's the weakest in this trilogy.

 

[BatLobster]

I think Rises had by far the hardest job in terms of all the screenplays in that it had to create a satisfying conclusion that solidified the three films as a unified piece of work and give resolution and closure for characters that we're used to seeing as infinite, ongoing archetypes. Third films are always the trickiest.

Compare that with Begins, which is a standard origin tale. It's executed wonderfully, but it's not without it's clunkiness, hamfisted-ness and bad one liners. Still my favorite superhero origin film by far, but I think overall it's working within a tried and proven formula with plenty of great examples throughout the genre.

There's also precedent for second films in trilogies to raise the stakes, go darker, make things tougher for the main characters. Second act of a play is always where everything goes to hell, and there's juicy dramatic material galore.

Third films in trilogies have always been shaky, and pulling them off in the superhero genre has proven to be even more challenging. There are a lot of reasons for this. I'll leave it at that for now, but it's the nature of the beast.

Then you have to take into consideration that outside factors (Ledger's death) put this movie in a potentially even more difficult position. THE thing that made the second film such a phenomenon was off the table.

In filmmaking, there is always so, so SO much that can go wrong. Especially when you're talking about films of this size and scale. I think of films like this as beasts a director must slay. And I think, while TDKR is my second favorite film of the trilogy, it was by FAR the biggest and scariest beast that Nolan had to face down. He didn't come out completely unscathed, but in the end I still feel like he (and the whole team) kicked its ass royally.

 

[redfirebird2008]

Hear hear

No offense, batfreakforever, but your kind of attitude is the reason Nolan fans have a bad rep and the term 'Nolanite' was invented.

I didn't see an "attitude" in the point he was making. It's a fair point. These forums lead to way too much plot speculation before a movie comes out. I repeatedly would skip over the long-winded fan fiction that people would post on here because I wanted to see what the filmmakers came up with. A lot of people on here invested way too much time speculating on the story instead of just waiting.

 

[ThePhantasm]

I disagree. The script was weak. It is the weakest script of all of the films Nolan made IMO. I'm talking all the Nolan films and not just his Batman films.

I completely agree. It was clear that the script came from a longer draft that got butchered down.

 

[ThePhantasm]

I didn't see an "attitude" in the point he was making. It's a fair point. These forums lead to way too much plot speculation before a movie comes out. I repeatedly would skip over the long-winded fan fiction that people would post on here because I wanted to see what the filmmakers came up with. A lot of people on here invested way too much time speculating on the story instead of just waiting.

He's undercutting our arguments by insinuating we were predisposed to dislike the film because we had a certain story in mind, etc. Its a way of poisoning the well, a logical fallacy. Oddly enough, what he's suggesting we are doing to TDKR he is also doing to our arguments.

Is it possible at all to critique a film and have your arguments taken seriously, without people second-guessing your motivations?

 

[redfirebird2008]

Is it possible at all to critique a film and have your arguments taken seriously, without people second-guessing your motivations?

Certainly.

 

[BatLobster]

Is it possible at all to critique a film and have your arguments taken seriously, without people second-guessing your motivations?

Of course it is. I take people's arguments at face value all the time when I've debated this film on this forum.

 

[ThePhantasm]

It's right because it's what Chris Nolan and co wanted to tell their final film. It's their vision.

It's right simply because it is? No. I don't have to accept it just because it is Chris Nolan's vision. I can critique Chris Nolan's vision. My opinions aren't founded on sheer phenomenology. Just because it is Chris Nolan's vision doesn't change the fact that

- There are massive story inconsistencies
- There are two-dimensional characters like John Blake who suck the life out of the story
- The story has a lack of thematic coherence and direction, largely because it is based on too many different ideas / themes (Dark Knight Returns, No Man's Land, Knightfall, Tale of Two Cities, + the Batman / Robin relationship, + the Batman / Catwoman relationship... its waaaaaay too much)

 

[ThePhantasm]

Of course it is. I take people's arguments at face value all the time when I've debated this film on this forum.

Yes, that comment wasn't directed at you. It was a rhetorical question, I'm not saying everyone here is fallacious or unpleasant to discuss things with.

 

[redfirebird2008]

It's right simply because it is? No. I don't have to accept it just because it is Chris Nolan's vision. I can critique Chris Nolan's vision. My opinions aren't founded on sheer phenomenology. Just because it is Chris Nolan's vision doesn't change the fact that

- There are massive story inconsistencies
- There are two-dimensional characters like John Blake who suck the life out of the story
- The story has a lack of thematic coherence and direction, largely because it is based on too many different ideas / themes (Dark Knight Returns, No Man's Land, Knightfall, Tale of Two Cities, + the Batman / Robin relationship, + the Batman / Catwoman relationship... its waaaaaay too much)

I don't believe any of that is worse than the same problems in The Dark Knight. It's amazing to me how much of a pass that film gets compared to TDKR.

 

[ThePhantasm]

The Dark Knight doesn't have the same issues. Its that simple.

TDK's issues are minor compared to TDKR's.

 

[BatLobster]

Yes, that comment wasn't directed at you. It was a rhetorical question, I'm not saying everyone here is fallacious or unpleasant to discuss things with.

Okay, good. I still feel there is plenty of room for open discussion here as I think there a lot of intelligent posters here but I feel we all too often get bogged down in this black/white game of contradicted one another and trying to force one opinion as an objective truth. This film has a lot worth discussing and delving into without even getting into opinions about quality.

 

[redfirebird2008]

The Dark Knight doesn't have the same issues. Its that simple.

TDK's issues are minor compared to TDKR's.

I disagree. All three of Nolan's Batman films have similar problems, but at the end of the day BB is still the best to me (at least partially because I'm a sucker for origin stories).

 

[The Joker]

He's undercutting our arguments by insinuating we were predisposed to dislike the film because we had a certain story in mind, etc. Its a way of poisoning the well, a logical fallacy. Oddly enough, what he's suggesting we are doing to TDKR he is also doing to our arguments.

Is it possible at all to critique a film and have your arguments taken seriously, without people second-guessing your motivations?

Exactly

It's right simply because it is? No. I don't have to accept it just because it is Chris Nolan's vision. I can critique Chris Nolan's vision. My opinions aren't founded on sheer phenomenology. Just because it is Chris Nolan's vision doesn't change the fact that

- There are massive story inconsistencies
- There are two-dimensional characters like John Blake who suck the life out of the story
- The story has a lack of thematic coherence and direction, largely because it is based on too many different ideas / themes (Dark Knight Returns, No Man's Land, Knightfall, Tale of Two Cities, + the Batman / Robin relationship, + the Batman / Catwoman relationship... its waaaaaay too much)

You're on a roll, Phantasm.