The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 146

[BatLobster]

I think it should be assumed that any talk of B&R tarnishing Batman's reputation is referencing Batman as a movie character, not the overall DC property. I've tried to make that distinction clear when discussing this. And it's important to realize that most of the people who saw the 90s Batman movies were not hardcore fans of the character.

Nolan saved Batman from WB's ineptitude and lack of confidence on how to proceed with the character. People shouldn't be so insecure that they think it's some sort of veiled way of saying Nolan saved Batman from some sort of inherent unworthiness when people say "Nolan saved Batman". Not at all. It's just an expression. The point is, Batman may not have been cinematically doomed after B&R, but WB reacted that way. They had no idea where to go from there, so they brought the franchise to a stall. Someone had to come in and get the job done, and basically save WB from themselves.

Batman's pop culture image simply began to fade after B&R because it wasn't really a huge part of pop culture for that time period. There was always a fanbase- we had TAS and then Batman Beyond, but overall 98-05 was Batman's time away from the spotlight. There were a lot of people who were probably indifferent towards ever seeing another Batman movie again after B&R. In fact I know this, because I have several friends who were huge BTAS fans, who weren't excited for Batman Begins because they'd simply given up on the idea of a good Batman movie.

 

[georgec]

I think it should be assumed that any talk of B&R tarnishing Batman's reputation is referencing Batman as a movie character, not the overall DC property. I've tried to make that distinction clear when discussing this. And it's important to realize that most of the people who saw the 90s Batman movies were not hardcore fans of the character.

BatLobsterRises gets it. Sometimes people can't separate Batman the movie property from Batman the comic property.

Nolan saved Batman from WB's ineptitude and lack of confidence on how to proceed with the character. People shouldn't be so insecure that they think it's some sort of veiled way of saying Nolan saved Batman from some sort of inherent unworthiness when people say "Nolan saved Batman". Not at all. It's just an expression.

That's how people always interpret it, though. A knee-jerk reaction borne out of certain people's disappointment with TDKR. An interesting contrast with the unlimited Nolan knob slobbering after TDK.

The point is, Batman may not have been cinematically doomed after B&R, but WB reacted that way. They had no idea where to go from there, so they brought the franchise to a stall. Someone had to come in and get the job done, and basically save WB from themselves.

Once again, well put. They waited 6 years, after all, to finally move forward (although there had been talks in the late 90s with doing a film based on Miller's work or otherwise returning Batman to his darker comic roots).

Batman's pop culture image simply began to fade after B&R because it wasn't really a huge part of pop culture for that time period. There was always a fanbase- we had TAS and then Batman Beyond, but overall 98-05 was Batman's time away from the spotlight. There were a lot of people who were probably indifferent towards ever seeing another Batman movie again after B&R. In fact I know this, because I have several friends who were huge BTAS fans, who weren't excited for Batman Begins because they'd simply given up on the idea of a good Batman movie.

Exactly. B&R left some people with a very bad impression of Batman (the film property). And for people who don't care about the comics, BTAS, or Beyond, Batman the film property is the only Batman they know. These people outnumber those who care or know more about Batman from sources other than the films.

It's not really a difficult concept to grasp.

 

[regwec]

Oh, I 'grasp' it (and there is no need to effect such a condescending tone): I simply don't need my comic book habit to be validated by the superficial and temporary approval of a broader audience who will move on to the next Michael Bay turd within weeks anyway.

 

[Kane52630]

and yet being condescending to the broader audience. amazing.

 

[BatLobster]

Oh, I 'grasp' it (and there is no need to effect such a condescending tone): I simply don't need my comic book habit to be validated by the superficial and temporary approval of a broader audience who will move on to the next Michael Bay turd within weeks anyway.

Personal question if you don't mind regwec...do you have friends that you'd consider to be part of the "broader audience"? Are all of your friends comic book readers?

 

[The Joker]

Every single one of you will be sent to da coola.

Your avatar and custom title are genius

 

[georgec]

Oh, I 'grasp' it (and there is no need to effect such a condescending tone): I simply don't need my comic book habit to be validated by the superficial and temporary approval of a broader audience who will move on to the next Michael Bay turd within weeks anyway.

Who's talking about validating comic book habits? The discussion is about Batman films.

and yet being condescending to the broader audience. amazing.

 

[regwec]

Personal question if you don't mind regwec...do you have friends that you'd consider to be part of the "broader audience"? Are all of your friends comic book readers?

No, just a couple. My girlfriend quite likes a select few. Why do you ask?

 

[regwec]

and yet being condescending to the broader audience. amazing.

No, I am simply sceptical about the veneration with which some voices here seem to think the last three Batman movies are held by this 'general audience'. I remember TDK making a bit of a splash, but that's it.

 

[BatLobster]

No, just a couple. My girlfriend quite likes a select few. Why do you ask?

What I was getting at was that while I don't necessarily care what the general public "at large" thinks, the trilogy was a real source of bonding for me and quiet a few of my friends (including my girlfriend and I). Mind you, it's not like these are "Joe Six Pack" type folks, they each have their own nerdy obsessions. But they all became bigger Batman fans as a result of all the exposure of the past 8 years.

Dunno, was just curious if you experienced anything similar. You might see where I'm coming from more if so- it's not about seeking validation so much as it is about just enjoying that others are getting passionate about something you were always passionate about. I think it adds to the fun of it all.

 

[regwec]

I can see what you mean, but don't feel that merits the claims that the character was somehow 'redeemed'.

 

[georgec]

No, I am simply sceptical about the veneration with which some voices here seem to think the last three Batman movies are held by this 'general audience'. I remember TDK making a bit of a splash, but that's it.

People liking Nolan's trilogy and having even a slightly greater interest in Batman after watching Nolan's films =/= veneration.

Also, LOL at the understatement of TDK making 'a bit of a splash'. That movie had massive broad appeal as an action film, a city crime drama, and a superhero film. Plus, before TDK came out BB had continued to gain new fans on DVD after the theatrical run.

You complain about condescension yet that's the backbone of your posts - misrepresenting what others (haven't) said to then tout your opinions as facts.

 

[BatLobster]

I can see what you mean, but don't feel that merits the claims that the character was somehow 'redeemed'.

And I don't think the character itself was redeemed. I do think the movies won the character a lot of new fans though. That's what I've observed in my experience.

 

[JackWhite]

I always thought people's undying appreciation for Nolan's Batman was for Batman-on-film? The comics, the source material has always, and will always remain untouched in it's greatness. But for the cinematic Batman - Nolan truly achieved a great and untouchable feat. At least for the time being.

 

[regwec]

You complain about condescension yet that's the backbone of your posts - misrepresenting what others (haven't) said to then tout your opinions as facts.

Er, no. That's just hackneyed message-board playground-speak.

'Tout', indeed...

 

[Kane52630]

Your avatar and custom title are genius

 

[batfreakforever]

I love it when some fans cry, kick and scream about a movie when a movie doesn't tell the story THEY were day-dreaming about, and write it off as a bad movie, and the creative team as hacks.
But then argue and say but it doesn't flow with the previous films which is bull anyway. No it just doesn't flow with THEIR views of the previous films.

 

[ThePhantasm]

I love it when some fans cry, kick and scream about a movie when a movie doesn't tell the story THEY were day-dreaming about, and write it off as a bad movie, and the creative team as hacks.
But then argue and say but it doesn't flow with the previous films which is bull anyway. No it just doesn't flow with THEIR views of the previous films.

 

[Travesty]

This last page here is so goddamn confusing, I don't know where to begin.

 

[batfreakforever]

When the Joker says all these things about "change and destined forever " in TDK. And then fans complain that it didn't pay off in TDKR it just means that the Joker was WRONG. What I find amusing to me is that I see fans say "well did anybody really think Batman would not be around for 8 years after the events of TDK because we didn't see that coming so it must be wrong". Same goes for other comments in the previous films. It just means those characters comments were wrong. Bruce was right.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Your username and title tells me everything I need to know about you.

 

[regwec]

The fact s/he has written one of those ubiquitous whiney posts that accuse others of 'crying' while claiming to 'love' and 'find amusing' everything that so clearly frustrates them, probably tells us everything else.

 

[georgec]

Er, no. That's just hackneyed message-board playground-speak.

'Tout', indeed...

Not really. You got defensive when it was suggested that general audiences view Batman differently than comic Batman fans. Then you tried downplaying the popularity of TDK as 'a bit of a splash' to cope with the preceding notion. Admirable but mistaken.

Not to mention you cut out the parts of my most recent post which corrected your falsehoods.

Also interesting that you never responded to this post.

 

[regwec]

George, don't be offended just because I have no inclination to address every repeatedly rehearsed sentence in any of your numerous, long and windy posts. I have heard it all before, and this discussion is probably a lot less fresh to me than to you. Looking back over your links- the provision of which is a bit obsessive- I don't find your arguments particularly cogent or persuasive. Now, bear in mind that no one is under an obligation to read or respond to anything that they find uninteresting. I would rather skip parts your posts than mount a detailed rebuttal that I would have typed out several times over the years, and which wouldn't interest you anyway.

 

[georgec]

Haha I'm not offended. But it's clear that in that prior discussion you didn't really have an answer for the question I posed. Same thing here - your misrepresentations were debunked and you conveniently ignored it. Now you've derailed into another deflection laced with not so passive aggression to avoid sticking to the discussion at hand.

You say the linked argument isn't cogent or persuasive yet can't provide reasons why. But the discussion was interesting enough to you before that to warrant a multiple posts by you (contradiction). Trying to discredit someone because their posts are "long" is another weak tactic. The length of those posts is necessitated to counter the arguments they address. But of course it's easy to ignore them when they don't agree with your opinions.