The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 146

[The Joker]

The Reeve/RDJ thing is also partially because Supes and Iron Man have weak villain rosters compared to Batman.

This is very true. Out of all the Superman and Iron Man movies, there is only two villains I would in any way call decent and memorable, and that's Obadiah Stane and General Zod (both versions).

 

[Green Goblin]

Mister Fantastic, Tony Stark and Banner are the MU geniuses. Peter Parker is a genius just not on par with those 3, first two for sure anyway...

 

[Green Goblin]

The only SM villain that was memorable is Doc Ock in SM2, I hope Electro can match it.

 

[Shikamaru]

Mister Fantastic, Tony Stark and Banner are the MU geniuses. Peter Parker is a genius just not on par with those 3, first two for sure anyway...

It's been stated that Peter is just as smart as Reed Richards was when Reed was Peter's age. Peter would be on par with him if it wasn't for him being younger and for spending time as Spider-Man instead of studying more.

 

[regwec]

Not going to respond to the last few pages in detail, but some are confusing the difference between script and story. We're not criticising TDKR's story when we say the script was weak, we're criticising the leaden and hackneyed dialogue. Claiming that those dissatisfied with the script were disappointed with the story is irrelevant.

 

[redfirebird2008]

Not going to respond to the last few pages in detail, but some are confusing the difference between script and story. We're not criticising TDKR's story when we say the script was weak, we're criticising the leaden and hackneyed dialogue. Claiming that those dissatisfied with the script were disappointed with the story is irrelevant.

How can you speak for others on that? The script is both story and dialogue. Vast majority of the complaints I've seen about the movie are related to the story.

 

[regwec]

Well, on a quick inspection of this particular conversation, the thing under attack seems to be the script rather than the story. I'm sure a lot of people would also take issue with the stuttering storyline, but that doesn't appear to be the issue in immediate contention.

 

[BatLobster]

I actually don't see where people attacking the script/dialogue of TDKR has much to do with what's been discussed over the past few pages. Maybe regwec was criticizing that initially, but I don't see where others picked up the torch.

 

[redfirebird2008]

Well, on a quick inspection of this particular conversation, the thing under attack seems to be the script rather than the story. I'm sure a lot of people would also take issue with the stuttering storyline, but that doesn't appear to be the issue in immediate contention.

Actually, one of the guys griping about the "script" was complaining that the movie felt like it had been chopped down. That is the very definition of a story complaint, not a dialogue complaint.

When people gripe about the script, it could be many things related to either the story or dialogue. Not sure why you're insisting that "script" only means dialogue.

 

[BatLobster]

Yeah, I mean honestly...based on every debate I've had on this movie, I'm convinced that if most of TDKR's critics here were presented with a beat sheet or outline for the film before the script was even written, they'd still roughly have the same problems with it. 8 year gap/Batman retiring, Blake's role, Talia's role/LOS returning, etc.

Fundamental story decisions are at the heart of 99% of TDKR debates here. If someone criticizes the "script", it's a natural assumption at this point to think that's a comment leveled at the story. When people are saying an entire character's existence in a film is inherently bad, what else can you assume?

 

[regwec]

Sure, but that doesn't mean that criticisms of the dialogue/characterization etc can be rebutted by a defence of the storyline.

 

[BatLobster]

Well, I can't speak for everyone but I wouldn't attempt to make such arguments. I'm only speaking to why your initial comment was probably misinterpreted.

 

[Green Goblin]

I felt that Rises had the best story out of any CBM but I felt it never really utilized it. I was expecting something like TDK Returns but Batman spent most of the movie getting his back broken. I never really notice plot holes but this was only film that I did. I lol'ed when Gordon said "send every cop into the sewers"

 

[shauner111]

The only SM villain that was memorable is Doc Ock in SM2, I hope Electro can match it.

I agree.

Jeff Bridges is the only one to play a memorable villain in the Marvel Studios-solo films.

For me, Stamp/Shannon a/k/a General Zod are the only memorable Superman villains ive seen on film. Even though there's a lot of potential with Lex, Brainiac and Doomsday. Or with Spider-Man there's so much potential with rogues like Venom, Carnage, Green/HobGoblin and Kraven. But NONE of that is on the level of Batman's rogues gallery. So it's easier for RDJ, Christopher Reeve to be the one main memorable thing to come out of their movie. It's also down to bad writing in the case of past Superman or Spider-Man movies, where the villain have potential
but they slack off and just put the focus on Peter Parker.

 

[Green Goblin]

I agree.

Jeff Bridges is the only one to play a memorable villain in the Marvel Studios-solo films.

For me, Stamp/Shannon a/k/a General Zod are the only memorable Superman villains ive seen on film. Even though there's a lot of potential with Lex, Brainiac and Doomsday. Or with Spider-Man there's so much potential with rogues like Venom, Carnage, Green/HobGoblin and Kraven. But NONE of that is on the level of Batman's rogues gallery. So it's easier for RDJ, Christopher Reeve to be the one main memorable thing to come out of their movie. It's also down to bad writing in the case of past Superman or Spider-Man movies, where the villain have potential
but they slack off and just put the focus on Peter Parker.

I'd say other than Batman, SM has the best villains. Green Goblin is a great villain on par with Batman's best. I hope the TASM's series does him right. An Evil man with an abusive childhood and is obsessed with Medieval stuff (not evil from a serum) They should do his costume right too. His one in SM1 was ridiculous...

 

[Brain Damage]

Not going to respond to the last few pages in detail, but some are confusing the difference between script and story. We're not criticising TDKR's story when we say the script was weak, we're criticising the leaden and hackneyed dialogue. Claiming that those dissatisfied with the script were disappointed with the story is irrelevant.

This.
My biggest problems with TDKR lie in the execution, not the concept. Retired Batman? Not necessarily my thing, but I'm game. Bruce trapped in a pit while Gotham is on its own? That's bold, let's see what you can do with it. Bruce passing on the mantle? Eh, I can't see him doing that, but convince me otherwise. Etc.

There's nothing particularly bad in the core story of TDKR - it's the sloppy and lazy way that story is told that earns my gripes.

 

[regwec]

Spider-Man suffers from a glut of animal themed depressives.

After Batman's rogues gallery, the nearest contender is probably The Flash's. But that's a long way behind. The Joker and Two Face and The Riddler and Catwoman and The Scarecrow and The Penguin and Mr Freeze and Ra's all Ghul? Whoa.

Even tertiary villains like Poison Ivy or The Ventriloquist are better than most other top-tier comic book antagonists. It's almost greedy.

 

[redfirebird2008]

X-Men has some pretty good villains.

 

[Green Goblin]

GG,Doc Ock, Lizard, Mysterio and Kraven are great villains. It's funny, they share similaritys to BM villains.
GG-Joker
Riddler-Doc Ock
Scarecrow- Mysterio
Bane-Kraven
Killer Croc- Lizard

 

[regwec]

Yes, I don't think it's a coincidence.

 

[Green Goblin]

Yes, I don't think it's a coincidence.

Your not the first to say that. I'd argue that Spider-Man has always been Superman and Batman mashed together... To AN EXTENT.

 

[Green Goblin]

Though Kraven came first...

 

[The Joker]

I love Spider-Man, but the problem with his rogues gallery is you can slot nearly all of them into one of two categories. They're either scientists gone bad (Doc Ock, Green Goblin, Lizard, Jackal etc) or they're thugs with powers (Sandman, Rhino, Shocker, Electro etc)

Batman's villains are such a diverse bunch coming from all walks of life and all with very different obsessions and psychologies.

 

[Green Goblin]

I love Spider-Man, but the problem with his rogues gallery is you can slot nearly all of them into one of two categories. They're either scientists gone bad (Doc Ock, Green Goblin, Lizard, Jackal etc) or they're thugs with powers (Sandman, Rhino, Shocker, Electro etc)

Batman's villains are such a diverse bunch coming from all walks of life and all with very different obsessions and psychologies.

You just summed it up. Though in Ultimate Spider-Man they gave some variety. In TASM2 while Electro is a scientist gone bad he wil be portrayed as kinda a mad man. Like in Ultimate comics he is rumoured to get help from Oscorp like his tech to make him stronger so he won't just be an accedent...

 

[shauner111]

The Flash has some seriously hokey villains. I think Superman and Spider-Man are right behind Batman.

I agree that Spidey has too many animal themed villains. I mean Rhino, Lizard, Vulture, Doctor Octopus, Black Cat, Scorpion. It's like they said back in the 60s "make a list of animals and we'll write a character who transforms into one!".