The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 149

[Shikamaru]

Well, here's the thing. I thought the majority of the movie was excellent, good story, fights, etc. It was like a part spy-thriller at times. Then the last 25 minutes or so was a huge letdown for me. The tone shifted, they played it safe and went back to the usual Marvel antics that i personally can't stand. So for most of the movie i was thinking "this is TDK of the Marvel universe if they just end it right"..and then they didnt. So now it's just a good/solid movie. Still the best Marvel movie hands down but yeah, because of the last bit, it fails to live up to the trilogy for me.

The story is good but not THAT good. Good for Marvel.

Also, i do agree that there should be that perfect balance between amazing fighting + a great story/characterization. Im only saying that it's usually not the case. You usually get a great story or you get amazing hand to hand combat. One or the other. Cap had that balance but a poor shift at the end.

I'll let you know my take on it after I see it tonight.

And then we'll argue for the next 2 years whether or not the ending fits.

 

[shauner111]

You guys may find that it fits because it's still a Marvel movie and it leads into Avengers and they have a certain formula. But i just find that they had the potential to be bold and stick with it but chose not to.

 

[DarthDorranceBane]

From the kind of movies you'd expect from Marvel Studios, The Winter Soldier is definitely their best and my favorite, even above The Avengers, for me. But in comparison to TDK, the good fight choreography is the only thing it has that one-ups Nolan's second Bat-film. I also have a problem now with some posters from TWS boards hailing it as "no comic book film has never been like this before."

 

[Shikamaru]

You guys may find that it fits because it's still a Marvel movie and it leads into Avengers and they have a certain formula. But i just find that they had the potential to be bold and stick with it but chose not to.

Having seen the film (which was awesome, btw t, what in particular are you talking about? The ending changed the entire status quo of the Marvel universe, [BLACKOUT]with SHIELD falling apart by the end and Nick Fury being gone[/BLACKOUT].

 

[Green Goblin]

You didn't like the ending? So I guess JGL doesn't become Cap at the end?

Yea, he just didn't feel it, in his bones and... stuff

Hardy har.

The last few minutes were fine as a follow up to what just happened in the final battle. But the actual final battle and a big thing that sets it up right before (which i wont go into because it's a spoiler)...that stuff was just a huge letdown. Safe as hell and just eyerolling from my end. Which is my usual reaction to their movies. But i was extremely impressed by most of it. Still think it's great.

I recommend it for sure.

What is your opinion on other MCU films like Iron Man or The Avengers.

 

[Ryan]

Great to others enjoyed Captain America. I haven't seen Winter Soldier yet, but I had wished they would have done MOS in a similar style.

 

[Tequilla]

I haven't seen it , but the Marvel movies tend to be highly stylized pictures , which help to compose action in completely different way than the approach they got for TDKT.

In the next Batman movie , Zack will surely present something along those lines.

 

[shauner111]

What is your opinion on other MCU films like Iron Man or The Avengers.

I dont like them. I like some parts from Avengers (some jokes) but it gets old fast now. I think it's incredibly cheesy and overrated. The first Thor was the same, i liked a couple of jokes but it wears off quick. The only Marvel movie i like is the first Iron Man.

I thought Winter Soldier was better than Man Of Steel.

Having seen the film (which was awesome, btw t, what in particular are you talking about? The ending changed the entire status quo of the Marvel universe, [BLACKOUT]with SHIELD falling apart by the end and Nick Fury being gone[/BLACKOUT].

Like i said to somebody else, i didnt mind the last 5 minutes or so. Once everything is done then they ended it fine.

Spoiler

My friend and i were totally dissapointed from the time they show Nick Fury being alive to the end. Itr was such a great and bold move to kill off Fury. Bringing him back felt like such a predictable thing (i kinda called it when the movie started but was hoping they had the balls to kill him). It was like Coulson or bringing Loki back at the end of Thor 2, which was just for fan service. If Fury was going to leave anyway, why not just kill him? He's probably going to have a small cameo here and there in the future, just because his contract says so, and cuz he's one of the good guys. It just shows a bad message. "We're always going to bring the heroes back alive, so no matter how dramatic a scene gets in a future movie, dont worry, theyre probably not dead".

Everytime they kill somebody big, they just bring them back. They shot themselves in the foot now.

The other thing that my friend agreed with, and some people on the Bats/Supes boards agreed as well. Was once that happens and we go into the final battle featuring Falcon, the explosions, etc. The tone slightly shifts and now it's the typical "Marvel heroes look like theyre having so much fun! Theyre gonna beat all the bad guys, save the world, and Falcon is having so much fun just like Spidey! He's belting out the one-liners and screaming WOOOOOO!!! while he's flying".

It just felt back to stupidity for the last 25 minutes or whatever it was. The first 3/4 was literally one of the greatest comic book movies of all time. And i liked the humor throughout it, was a perfect balance.

 

[Shikamaru]

Like i said to somebody else, i didnt mind the last 5 minutes or so. Once everything is done then they ended it fine.

Spoiler

My friend and i were totally dissapointed from the time they show Nick Fury being alive to the end. Itr was such a great and bold move to kill off Fury. Bringing him back felt like such a predictable thing (i kinda called it when the movie started but was hoping they had the balls to kill him). It was like Coulson or bringing Loki back at the end of Thor 2, which was just for fan service. If Fury was going to leave anyway, why not just kill him? He's probably going to have a small cameo here and there in the future, just because his contract says so, and cuz he's one of the good guys. It just shows a bad message. "We're always going to bring the heroes back alive, so no matter how dramatic a scene gets in a future movie, dont worry, theyre probably not dead".

Everytime they kill somebody big, they just bring them back. They shot themselves in the foot now.

The other thing that my friend agreed with, and some people on the Bats/Supes boards agreed as well. Was once that happens and we go into the final battle featuring Falcon, the explosions, etc. The tone slightly shifts and now it's the typical "Marvel heroes look like theyre having so much fun! Theyre gonna beat all the bad guys, save the world, and Falcon is having so much fun just like Spidey! He's belting out the one-liners and screaming WOOOOOO!!! while he's flying".

It just felt back to stupidity for the last 25 minutes or whatever it was. The first 3/4 was literally one of the greatest comic book movies of all time. And i liked the humor throughout it, was a perfect balance.

Spoiler

Was it really a surprise that Nick Fury wasn't dead? It was kinda obvious going in. There were scenes in the trailers with Fury that we didn't see yet, he's in Avengers 2 (no sure if you're keeping up with it though) and aside from that, they also wouldn't kill off a character as big as Nick Fury played by someone as big as SLJ in the first act of the film. If they would have done it, it would have been at the end of the film and would have been this huge deal. That would be the proper way to kill off a character like his, so I don't think they ever intended to give the impression Nick Fury was dead for good.

Second, your case about Marvel bringing everyone back really only applies to Coulson. Fury and Loki's deaths were intentionally done with a *wink wink* to the audience that they're still alive. I don't think it's fair to count those as "deaths" for that reason. You're essentially criticizing what was supposed to be a plot twist. By that logic, TDKR is guilty of the same thing. What you're describing is deciding to bring a character back after you decided to kill them off which, as I said, so far has only happened to Coulson.

Third, I kinda agree with you on the final battle, but I don't think the tone was the issue. I think it was the soundtrack. Most of the film's soundtrack comes off a bit "meh", especially during more intense scenes. It feels as if the film is really big in scale, knows it's that big in scale, but the soundtrack is almost unaware of it. It's as if it was made for "just another Marvel movie". That was about the only issue I took with the film, as well as Peggy and Bucky not having enough screentime/presence.

Fourth, this is kinda off topic but we seem to be in agreement on the direction the MCU should take. I kinda want some characters to die and age. I'd prefer if they keep the continuity going via real time as opposed to just recasting and pulling a Bond. Not that I mind the Bond route, but I think the former would be more interesting to see and would fit this universe better. Especially with how far all the MCU films have gone to establish the month and year they take place in ("I was born in 1984", "I'm technically 95 years old, the official timelines Marvel releases with actual dates, Tony's dad in WWII, etc.).

 

[shauner111]

Spoiler

Was it really a surprise that Nick Fury wasn't dead? It was kinda obvious going in. There were scenes in the trailers with Fury that we didn't see yet, he's in Avengers 2 (no sure if you're keeping up with it though) and aside from that, they also wouldn't kill off a character as big as Nick Fury played by someone as big as SLJ in the first act of the film. If they would have done it, it would have been at the end of the film and would have been this huge deal. That would be the proper way to kill off a character like his, so I don't think they ever intended to give the impression Nick Fury was dead for good.

Second, your case about Marvel bringing everyone back really only applies to Coulson. Fury and Loki's deaths were intentionally done with a *wink wink* to the audience that they're still alive. I don't think it's fair to count those as "deaths" for that reason. You're essentially criticizing what was supposed to be a plot twist. By that logic, TDKR is guilty of the same thing. What you're describing is deciding to bring a character back after you decided to kill them off which, as I said, so far has only happened to Coulson.

Third, I kinda agree with you on the final battle, but I don't think the tone was the issue. I think it was the soundtrack. Most of the film's soundtrack comes off a bit "meh", especially during more intense scenes. It feels as if the film is really big in scale, knows it's that big in scale, but the soundtrack is almost unaware of it. It's as if it was made for "just another Marvel movie". That was about the only issue I took with the film, as well as Peggy and Bucky not having enough screentime/presence.

Fourth, this is kinda off topic but we seem to be in agreement on the direction the MCU should take. I kinda want some characters to die and age. I'd prefer if they keep the continuity going via real time as opposed to just recasting and pulling a Bond. Not that I mind the Bond route, but I think the former would be more interesting to see and would fit this universe better. Especially with how far all the MCU films have gone to establish the month and year they take place in ("I was born in 1984", "I'm technically 95 years old, the official timelines Marvel releases with actual dates, Tony's dad in WWII, etc.).

Spoiler

I didnt see most of the trailers. I figured it would happen going into it because they always handle it that way where they try to fool you by the end. But when it happened it was pretty brutal and shocking. I was surprised that they announced him dead so i started to get more excited at the idea of him staying dead because it's pretty bold and fresh for Marvel. When it happened i heard some people in my row go "oh come on!" and i went "i told you!". The more i thought about it, the more annoyed i was with it. Im sure ill be OK with it now when i see it a second time but i was just disappointed in them that's all. It was the same safe move they've been playing in the last few movies.

I think it would have been cool to end the movie on a darker note that leads right into the Avengers, bringing Nick Fury back then instead of the end. But it's not just that. Once Fury had returned and i was used to it, they had some scenes with Black Widow disguised as the old lady + the Falcon stuff that just felt cheesy to me. Which was weird since most of WS was more serious.

But dont get me wrong, they ended the film nicely after that huge battle. I really liked how Rogers was carried out of the water, the music was fitting in that scene. I agree with you about the rest of the soundtrack though, they could have put more effort into it. They made up for it with Marvin Gaye though

Yeah they need to age the characters, kill some off. I think they should kill off Tony unless they get one hell of a replacement. I have a feeling Hawkeye will be killed in Avengers 2 though. Just a feeling i have. I hope im right because i dont want to always sit in a Marvel movie thinking "well who cares about the stakes because they wont let anybody die for good anyhow.."

That will just feel like a soap opera to me.

I dont want Thor to be recast or Captain America. Something about that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It would be like recasting Cavill while continuing the Justice League universe down the road. OK if they're rebooting as a solo franchise but i want a clear continuity for the shared universe. If they ever get Spidey in Avengers (i can dream!)..they should send Thor back to Asgard for good and replace him with Peter.

 

[The Endless]

Spoiler

Nick Fury faking his death is what he does. I can't even begin to count the amount of times he's done it in the comics.

But it actually made sense to the story. Even those closest to him, like Cap and Widow, had to truly believe he was dead.

Made more sense to the story than Gordon faking his death in TDK.

 

[Wild]

The ending of TWS tried to do something very similar to the ending of TDK.

 

[Travesty]

Ok, enough with the goddamn spoilers or alluding to things that happened in Cap. Not everybody has seen it yet.

 

[The Endless]

Damn... my apologies.

 

[DarthDorranceBane]

Great to others enjoyed Captain America. I haven't seen Winter Soldier yet, but I had wished they would have done MOS in a similar style.

Yeah, the character of Superman shouldn't be grim, as what was done in MOS.

http://badassdigest.com/2014/04/04/captain-america-he-changes-the-world-he-isnt-changed-by-it/

 

[Ryan]

Yeah, the character of Superman shouldn't be grim, as what was done in MOS.

http://badassdigest.com/2014/04/04/captain-america-he-changes-the-world-he-isnt-changed-by-it/

Exactly. I thought Marvel was able to put forth a "Boy Scout" type character and do it well, without having to "get with the times" sort of nonsense. I enjoyed Mos more than Superman returns, but most of it had to do with having great actors in perfect positions (ala the tdk trilogy). However despite the heavy cgi, I still think the best Superman action scene was in Superman Returns when he saved the airplane.

 

[DA_Champion]

I really enjoyed the fighting scenes in TDKT.

I see a lot of complaining that they don't like beautifully choreographed like the fight scenes in the Matrix, but I don't think that would fit with the tone of the movie. The fighting wasn't meant to look elegant, it was meant to look scary and effective. Personally I wouldn't want to see fight scenes like those from the Matrix in TDKT.

The fight scenes in TDKT also benefit from the amazing theme song, Zimmer's score is like the best score for fight scenes since the 1990s Mortal Kombat movie.

I wonder how many reviews critiqued the fight scenes for lacking elegance?

 

[shauner111]

I liked them too. They're only not fantastic when you put them up against other movies that go crazy with that kind of stuff. Usually, in those movies, it's either slick/smooth/exaggerated and there's nothing to it. Or they strike a great balance between brutality and slick maneuvers. But movie fighting will always be so smooth and unrealistic. The delivery, execution. I love it when it's done well. But the trilogy just offered a different vibe. It's just super straight forward, short, brutal hits. There's a lot of weight to the punches and kicks, just watch the first fight with Bane/Batman which is still the harshest and most real fight ive seen in a massive budget action movie. No score backing it which helps.

It's not choreographed in such a nice, artistic way like the Winter Soldier fights which are just mindblowing for the genre. But it does the job it needed to do and it stands out. Even from the upcoming Batman movies, which im sure will be the usual choreography that we're used to seeing in fantasy, ninja & recent comic book movies. Doesnt mean it's good, or you have to like it. But i do. It's not my favorite way of seeing Batman fight but for the world they established, it was very fitting and harsh.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

The fighting wasn't meant to look elegant, it was meant to look scary and effective.

If it was meant to be the latter, then it failed more hilariously then if is was supposed to be the former. And people have been comparing the fights to The Winter Soldier, which is absolutely nothing like the balletic and beautiful combat of the Matrix. The fights in Cap 2 are truly "scary" and "effective". The Winter Soldier is brutality personified.

 

[The Endless]

Again no one is talking about the style of the fights or the martial arts. But the choreography and the way they are shot.

You can visibly see the blows are not landing. You can visibly see guys standing around waiting to be punched. You can visibly see people falling over without being touched.

Nothing to do with style.

The fights in TWS weren't overly stylistic either. But you felt the blows. The fights were simply executed much, much better.

 

[Shikamaru]

Again no one is talking about the style of the fights or the martial arts. But the choreography and the way they are shot.

You can visibly see the blows are not landing. You can visibly see guys standing around waiting to be punched. You can visibly see people falling over without being touched.

Nothing to do with style.

The fights in TWS weren't overly stylistic either. But you felt the blows. The fights were simply executed much, much better.

This.

I don't get why it's hard for people to understand this.

As much as I like Nolan's films, it seems like every criticism is taken as a slant against his vision. You don't think the ending to his trilogy fits in the context of the story? You just don't understand Nolan's vision. You think the plot he came up with is lame and/or has plot holes? You just wanted TDK 2.0 and can't accept it's a new story. You think the fights are poorly choreographed? You just don't get the stylistic choice he was going for.

 

[shauner111]

I see the blows landing. If you're going to pause a frame or whatever, then as far as im concerned that doesnt count because who the hell does that anyway besides like 1 percent of the people who see the movie? If you're gonna do that, then im sure every action movie has spots where punches don't land. Newsflash: the punches DONT land, because it's not real lol.

The fights WERE executed much better in Cap, but it's due to the different fighting style. Not just the different martial art chosen, but the actual difference between full blown movie fighting, and Nolan's which uses only a bit of that while trying to step away from the usual slick stuff.

 

[The Endless]

Maybe that's because you're blinding yourself to them. I don't pause the film or put it in slow motion. I noticed goons standing there with guns just waiting for Batman to clock them the first time i watched it. I noticed Bane's silly spinning jumping punch thing not being anywhere near Batman's face the first time i watched it. Again why did he do that silly spinning jumping punch? That was more stylized or "hollywood" than anything Cap did in his film.

Of course the punches don't land. But in TWS it FEELS like they do. When Cap boots some guy in the face, you understand he is knocked out. When Batman punches someone in the shoulder and they stay down it's like... really? None of his strikes seem incapacitating. Not just because of the choice of martial art, but because the stunt actors are terrible and the way they are filmed.

The fighting style used by Cap isn't stylistic. He's still just punching and kicking. But it feels brutal because of the way it's filmed and edited.

 

[craigdbfan]

I love, love, love Nolan's stuff but it's no secret that he has a very, very, very hard time directing a good hand on hand combat scenes. He's had his moments but you can tell it's nowhere near his forte.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

He's as bad at shootouts as he is at CQC. I mean, the shootout after the Swat finds Selina and the other dude at the bar was completely confusing. Just poor distribution of visual information. Not to mention he puts no weight in impact of a bullet, as demonstrated by a rain of bullets flying around in Inception with 99.99% of them not hitting our heroes.