The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 149

[shauner111]

Oh i know it is. Just never found that Family Guy quote to be funny.

 

[Travesty]

So could you say, you don't feel the reference in your bones and stuff?


Boom! Nailed it!

 

[JackWhite]

Even though I would have been fine with Bruce kicking the bucket; having him sacrifice himself isn't redemption by any means. At least not how it would have been presented in the film.

Redemption would have been him purging his demons as Batman and continuing a life in Gotham and rebuilding the city as Bruce Wayne. Now that's redemption.

 

[Travesty]

Nah, I think redemption is when you fake your death, and let the city rebuild all the destruction that you helped cause.

 

[shauner111]

Yes. It's about time they step up and fend for themselves. Do good for their city without Batman's help. It's not his problem anymore. Bruce finding happiness is his redemption. Read my long ass post from yesterday.

 

[Panthro]

Found a good post/blog on the movie/trilogy. Most here won't agree with it but i do. In every way.

I believe the third movie completed Bruce's arc in the best way possible. It felt like a perfect conclusion. Everything tied up nicely like a bow.

The greatest films all have flaws. But some of the flaws that i do acknowledge don't bother me because im watching a comic book movie. Things don't have to be realistic 24/7, there needs to be a disconnect every once in a while, which is why i loved Winter Soldier. Balance is a good thing. Heck, even Breaking Bad and True Detective tend to have a couple of rare instances where it disconnects from the grounded reality that they have set up hours & hours prior.

Moments like the back break or the microwave emitter. ETC.

Overall though? I mainly concentrate on themes and character development for this trilogy. Since that was always the priority from the opening seconds of Batman Begins. Not in a way of comparing it to what the character has been about before, you know..how his journey would normally move forward in a comic book. But as the films have set it up, as if comic books never existed before. To just focus on the story im watching. I believe when you go into a film you should throw away the source material out of your brain. That goes for Walking Dead, Hunger Games, Harry Potter or Lord Of The Rings. Batman and Superman, whoever. If the basics are intact (name: Bruce Wayne, parents murdered, dark vigilante in bat-suit) then everything else is open to interpretation. Ill go into it without thinking of the past films, tv shows or graphic novels. They just dont matter beyond those basics. For some that's not true but im not about that mentality.

What's presented in front of me is all that matters at that point. Nolan's story. It'll be the same with Affleck.

And so, i see Bruce's arc as being full, complete, a progression. It's a story about starting life with a bright light surrounding you...to falling into the depths of darkness, deeper and deeper until you can't see the light anymore. Even though it shines bright. But you can't see it because you've fallen so far into the black. Then rising from the darkness until you can move on completely. So your entire future is bright again, until you can no longer see the darkness at the bottom anymore. This is what happens to Christian Bale's Bruce Wayne. Not Kevin Conroy's, Michael Keaton's, Denny O'Neil's, Frank Miller's or Paul Dini's. Just another version tossed into the bat-hat. Another decade, another interpretation. None less valid than the next.

The lesson is...

Bruce was too young. And inside he never grew up. So he had no damn idea that there could be a light at the end of the tunnel. As far as his ignorance was concerned, it went away when Joe Chill showed up that night. The lesson is that he's now experienced hell. He knows where it lurks (his parents will always be dead and so will Rachel). But now he knows how to stay away from it. He's got the tools. It's almost a story about addiction. What makes people dive headfirst into that stuff, what makes them get through to the other side and how possible it is for them to keep moving forward without looking in the rearview mirror.

Think of it like all the other versions are about a man (Bats) who falls to his addiction. Think of all of the casualties. And then Nolan's Batman is the one type who gets through it by fighting tooth and nail.

Awesome post shauner, thanks for sharing. I do find it a little funny that Bruce didn't learn his lesson about brute force not always working with the Joker, but I guess that's just his self-destructive stubbornness at play. Admittedly the scene where Alfred is trying to warn Bruce not to underestimate Bane and Bruce dismisses Bane as nothing more than a mercenary would have been a good spot for Alfred to say something like "And the Joker was just another criminal, you remember how that turned out?"

Also, the film never states that Bane is younger than Bruce (even though Tom Hardy is younger than Christian Bale) as that blog post states, the film merely makes it clear that he's in better shape and he has "the power of belief" on his side. Bane believes in himself and his cause, and that gives him the will to power his way through, something Bruce is lacking at the start of the story, which he only regains in the Pit.

 

[Travesty]

Bane younger than Bruce? He's actually much older.

 

[JackWhite]

Did anyone miss that little melancholy piano piece from BB in TDKR? They played it very frequently in both of the previous films. I know the scene where Bruce and Alfred part ways has so much weight without music, but every now and then I wonder how that scene would played out with the piano motif from "Corynorhinus" playing in the background.

[YT]YUOHRIGWxTQ[/YT]

 

[shauner111]

I soooooo missed that, i thought i was the only one!

 

[shauner111]

Awesome post shauner, thanks for sharing. I do find it a little funny that Bruce didn't learn his lesson about brute force not always working with the Joker, but I guess that's just his self-destructive stubbornness at play. Admittedly the scene where Alfred is trying to warn Bruce not to underestimate Bane and Bruce dismisses Bane as nothing more than a mercenary would have been a good spot for Alfred to say something like "And the Joker was just another criminal, you remember how that turned out?"

Also, the film never states that Bane is younger than Bruce (even though Tom Hardy is younger than Christian Bale) as that blog post states, the film merely makes it clear that he's in better shape and he has "the power of belief" on his side. Bane believes in himself and his cause, and that gives him the will to power his way through, something Bruce is lacking at the start of the story, which he only regains in the Pit.

Yeah i would have loved some dialogue like that about Joker.

Bane younger than Bruce? He's actually much older.

Exactly. Well, i wouldnt say much older but id say he's a few years older.

 

[Travesty]

I would say he's about 12 years older.

 

[JackWhite]

I soooooo missed that, i thought i was the only one!

No way man, me too!

I always play that scene with the music over top of it and it really works, IMO. I'm grateful they played it during the first scene in the bat-cave, but it should have been played at least once more.

 

[Kane52630]

Oh i know it is. Just never found that Family Guy quote to be funny.

Don't be That Guy, people don't like That Guy.

 

[Marvolo]

I still don't really get why Bruce would feel the need to fake his death. He could have done everything he did at the end without committing a federal crime.

Consider the fact that Alfred told him to help Gotham as Bruce that Gotham needed his resources not his body. A more logical ending would have been him sacrificing Batman to save the city, and him moving on and learning to help Gotham as Bruce Wayne. That's an ending. Not him committing a federal crime in a convoluted ridiculous way and leaving a breadcrumb trail so his possibly senile butler can find him at a random cafe in Europe where he likes to order his favorite booze.

I rewatched the film recently, and I've come to the conclusion that Bruce really did die in that nuclear explosion and Alfred was just drunk and/or hallucinating there at the end. Bruce fixed the auto pilot and bat signal to troll Fox and Gordon. And Robin was beaten to death in a back alley by some thugs.

 

[Victarion]

I still don't really get why Bruce would feel the need to fake his death. He could have done everything he did at the end without committing a federal crime.

Consider the fact that Alfred told him to help Gotham as Bruce that Gotham needed his resources not his body. A more logical ending would have been him sacrificing Batman to save the city, and him moving on and learning to help Gotham as Bruce Wayne. That's an ending. Not him committing a federal crime in a convoluted ridiculous way and leaving a breadcrumb trail so his possibly senile butler can find him at a random cafe in Europe where he likes to order his favorite booze.

I rewatched the film recently, and I've come to the conclusion that Bruce really did die in that nuclear explosion and Alfred was just drunk and/or hallucinating there at the end. Bruce fixed the auto pilot and bat signal to troll Fox and Gordon. And Robin was beaten to death in a back alley by some thugs.

For shame, Marvolo. You forgot how everyone in Gotham's watching their loved ones die a slow death from fallout due to the bomb.

 

[shauner111]

I still don't really get why Bruce would feel the need to fake his death. He could have done everything he did at the end without committing a federal crime.

Consider the fact that Alfred told him to help Gotham as Bruce that Gotham needed his resources not his body. A more logical ending would have been him sacrificing Batman to save the city, and him moving on and learning to help Gotham as Bruce Wayne. That's an ending. Not him committing a federal crime in a convoluted ridiculous way and leaving a breadcrumb trail so his possibly senile butler can find him at a random cafe in Europe where he likes to order his favorite booze.

I rewatched the film recently, and I've come to the conclusion that Bruce really did die in that nuclear explosion and Alfred was just drunk and/or hallucinating there at the end. Bruce fixed the auto pilot and bat signal to troll Fox and Gordon. And Robin was beaten to death in a back alley by some thugs.

To start completely fresh. No more Bruce Wayne, no more connections to Wayne Enterprises, fame, Batman, Gotham, everything.

He did try helping Gotham. Actually in that exact scene when Alfred tells him to use his resources, in the script Bruce answers back with how he tried that and failed during the 8 years. We know this in the movie anyway since he was out in the public as Bruce, not a recluse. Developing a clean energy project for 5 years. When that failed he went into hiding. He stopped being Batman due to the Dent Act, became a recluse when his attempt to aid the city went south.

He barely has any money to his name, how is he going to help Gotham? Wayne Enterprises may regain their fortunes in the months/years but Gotham needs to fend for themselves now.

 

[Marvolo]

For shame, Marvolo. You forgot how everyone in Gotham's watching their loved ones die a slow death from fallout due to the bomb.

Crap I knew I was forgetting some major detail.

To start completely fresh. No more Bruce Wayne, no more connections to Wayne Enterprises, fame, Batman, Gotham, everything.

He did try helping Gotham. Actually in that exact scene when Alfred tells him to use his resources, in the script Bruce answers back with how he tried that and failed during the 8 years. We know this in the movie anyway since he was out in the public as Bruce, not a recluse. Developing a clean energy project for 5 years. When that failed he went into hiding. He stopped being Batman due to the Dent Act, became a recluse when his attempt to aid the city went south.

He barely has any money to his name, how is he going to help Gotham? Wayne Enterprises may regain their fortunes in the months/years but Gotham needs to fend for themselves now.

Well let's look at how he became broke. Illegal trades forged by a man wearing a drive thru speaker on his face during a hostage situation...those trades would not stand up in any part of this country. Therefore Bruce shouldn't be broke. It just goes back to how convoluted, lazy, and ******ed the whole plot is when you start thinking about it.

 

[Travesty]

Now I'm imagining Bane working the drive thru window at a fast food place, and nobody being able to understand him.

 

[Marvolo]

Now I'm imagining Bane working the drive thru window at a fast food place, and nobody being able to understand him.

Poor Bane just wants to let you have it your way.

 

[shauner111]

Crap I knew I was forgetting some major detail.



Well let's look at how he became broke. Illegal trades forged by a man wearing a drive thru speaker on his face during a hostage situation...those trades would not stand up in any part of this country. Therefore Bruce shouldn't be broke. It just goes back to how convoluted, lazy, and ******ed the whole plot is when you start thinking about it.

Umm hate to break it to you but Gotham isn't a real city in our world. This whole "everything is realistic" stuff is getting annoying now. It's not black or white. It's meant to be more grounded in reality and "serious" than other comic book movies, to be a little more similar to other genres of film. But it's not our world. Not everything will work the same way. That's why certain things should get a pass like the microwave emitter, clean slate, government laws, medicine, whatever those details may be. To be like "well in our world those trades wouldnt stand up in any part of this country!" is a little bit of a ridiculous nitpick.

There's plenty of stuff in Winter Soldier that goes against what could really happen, but those details don't matter in that universe. It's not the point. It's trying to make it more relatable for the audience, it's not trying to convince you that it's 100 percent real.

The fact of the movie is, Wayne Enterprises started falling down financially and Bruce doesn't have the money he used to have.

 

[Marvolo]

Umm hate to break it to you but Gotham isn't a real city in our world. This whole "everything is realistic" stuff is getting annoying now. It's not black or white. It's meant to be more grounded in reality and "serious" than other comic book movies, to be a little more similar to other genres of film. But it's not our world. Not everything will work the same way. That's why certain things should get a pass like the microwave emitter, clean slate, government laws, medicine, whatever those details may be. To be like "well in our world those trades wouldnt stand up in any part of this country!" is a little bit of a ridiculous nitpick.

There's plenty of stuff in Winter Soldier that goes against what could really happen, but those details don't matter in that universe. It's not the point. It's trying to make it more relatable for the audience, it's not trying to convince you that it's 100 percent real.

The fact of the movie is, Wayne Enterprises started falling down financially and Bruce doesn't have the money he used to have.

Don't be a smartass I know Gotham isn't real. But in no way shape or form do those trades go through even in a fictional city. To even try to pass that off in a fictional movie is stupid. It's just stupid as hell to try to say that a major stock exchange like the Gotham stock exchange wouldn't insulate itself against tampering like that. It's the most basic security and regulation any functioning stock exchange would have.

If there were no laws in Gotham or America in that universe against that type of fraud then someone would have tried that before Bane. Meaning a law or regulation preventing it would have made so we are back to the fact that even in a fictional universe their would be laws preventing it. You see stock laws are public record, and anyone looking to get rich or mess things up up would take advantage of holes in the law. It's a major hole that allows Bane to do the **** he did. No functioning stock exchange and it's players are that careless with their money. Not to mention the fact this particular stock exchange plays in the world economy and wouldn't be that stupid. Sorry but the BS don't fly. Fictional universe or not. It makes Bruce look stupid. It makes the stock exchange look incompetent. I don't buy that.

This isn't a problem with realism so much as it's an issue with the movie and it's characters and the world they occupy lacking any common ****ing sense.

 

[Shikamaru]

It seems my hardcore TDKR debating days are over. At this point, I'm far too invested in a number of other topics to devote some energy to that, even with this thread still going strong. It's been fun for the 2 years that it lasted, but I think it might be the time to call it day. At least for me.

So I'll leave you off with this...

Shauner, I will never like this movie. I think it's an insult to everything Batman stands for and I will never understand how you could actually like it. But just because I can't see how doesn't mean I can't understand why.

When I see this movie, I see Nolan retiring Batman solely due to a lack of understanding of the character and for the sake of making his franchise untouchable by WB. But that's not what you see. You see one of your favorite superheroes being tested, and put through a greater challenge than ever before: having to overcome all the pain and misery bestowed upon him since he was a child. And by going through so much intensity, with Bane breaking him physically and his city being left to ruins, it makes his challenge to escape his demons far more greater and, at least to you, far more interesting. For you, and probably for a lot of other people that like this film, you're seeing The Dark Knight go up against the greatest struggle he's ever had to face and go up against. Because of how long he's a recluse. So when he rises up and retires, you can feel all-the-more-proud of what he has indeed overcome.

It's not about that he quit. It's about how you see him fight against those demons that do keep him from quitting. And not just through him in therapy sessions, but by conquering and standing up to what he feels is weighing him down.

I don't see the same thing, but at the very least, I know that's what you see. So as long as you're viewing it because you want to see our favorite hero rise up against the greatest darkness he's ever faced and been forced to, all I can say is...good ahead and enjoy it, man.

-Inspired by the Nostalgia Critic's words to Angry Joe on MOS.

 

[shauner111]

Don't be a smartass I know Gotham isn't real. But in no way shape or form do those trades go through even in a fictional city. To even try to pass that off in a fictional movie is stupid. It's just stupid as hell to try to say that a major stock exchange like the Gotham stock exchange wouldn't insulate itself against tampering like that. It's the most basic security and regulation any functioning stock exchange would have.

If there were no laws in Gotham or America in that universe against that type of fraud then someone would have tried that before Bane. Meaning a law or regulation preventing it would have made so we are back to the fact that even in a fictional universe their would be laws preventing it. You see stock laws are public record, and anyone looking to get rich or mess things up up would take advantage of holes in the law. It's a major hole that allows Bane to do the **** he did. No functioning stock exchange and it's players are that careless with their money. Not to mention the fact this particular stock exchange plays in the world economy and wouldn't be that stupid. Sorry but the BS don't fly. Fictional universe or not. It makes Bruce look stupid. It makes the stock exchange look incompetent. I don't buy that.

This isn't a problem with realism so much as it's an issue with the movie and it's characters and the world they occupy lacking any common ****ing sense.

Im not being a smartass, that's Travesty's job. "But in no way shape or form do those trades go through even in a fictional city" are you serious? lol

You're literally the only person to ever criticize that point. But of course, in 24 hours, we'll see the band follow suit. Im sure the band knows who they are.

Maybe i dont pay attention to money that much, or stock exchange b.s, so it goes right over my head. Maybe i simply don't care about those details enough. But it doesn't bother me and i see what they're trying to do. To me Bruce doesn't have money at that point and Wayne Enterprises will soon be able to prove fraud. That's all i care about. Im going by what they tell me in the movie and just stating where Bruce is by the end of the film.

It seems my hardcore TDKR debating days are over. At this point, I'm far too invested in a number of other topics to devote some energy to that, even with this thread still going strong. It's been fun for the 2 years that it lasted, but I think it might be the time to call it day. At least for me.

So I'll leave you off with this...

Shauner, I will never like this movie. I think it's an insult to everything Batman stands for and I will never understand how you could actually like it. But just because I can't see how doesn't mean I can't understand why.

When I see this movie, I see Nolan retiring Batman solely due to a lack of understanding of the character and for the sake of making his franchise untouchable by WB. But that's not what you see. You see one of your favorite superheroes being tested, and put through a greater challenge than ever before: having to overcome all the pain and misery bestowed upon him since he was a child. And by going through so much intensity, with Bane breaking him physically and his city being left to ruins, it makes his challenge to escape his demons far more greater and, at least to you, far more interesting. For you, and probably for a lot of other people that like this film, you're seeing The Dark Knight go up against the greatest struggle he's ever had to face and go up against. Because of how long he's a recluse. So when he rises up and retires, you can feel all-the-more-proud of what he has indeed overcome.

It's not about that he quit. It's about how you see him fight against those demons that do keep him from quitting. And not just through him in therapy sessions, but by conquering and standing up to what he feels is weighing him down.

I don't see the same thing, but at the very least, I know that's what you see. So as long as you're viewing it because you want to see our favorite hero rise up against the greatest darkness he's ever faced and been forced to, all I can say is...good ahead and enjoy it, man.

-Inspired by the Nostalgia Critic's words to Angry Joe on MOS.

No problem dude.

I respect your opinion.

See, my issue has always been with how you word it though. When you say that it's a lack of understanding of the character, which is why he retires the way he does. That's when i scratch my head, because i dont feel like that goes against the character in any way. And quite frankly at the end of the day, i dont think the filmmaker really needs to understand everything. Because it's not the source material as ive argued so many times in the past. It's another interpretaton. I dont believe there are rules. And if there are, i dont see the rules that you see. My rules are very simple: dark vigilante in bat-suit, parents died, name is Bruce Wayne. When it goes camp then i say it's against the character and some will disagree with me on that even.

But i do thank you for saying that you understand why i like it. And i get why you dont, because it's all about the never-ending quest. Happiness isn't in the cards for Bruce.

I see it as two ways of doing it though. Affleck's will most likely end in your favor even though you're not very excited for the new universe. While Bale's ended in my favor. But i like both interpretations. Im down with the whole "he's batman forever" concept. I really am. I just prefer the happy ending for him because quite frankly im sick of the same damn thing all the time and i also think the nightmarish end to his story is usually force-fed by the majority of writers in order to keep the universe going. Making that buck.

I described it this way, in one of my recent posts. It's like a drug addict. One way is he dies as an addict, falls to it, or even in this case he lives as the forever obsessed addict that he has been for years. All of which came into play because of the trauma he suffered. The other way (Nolan) is that he overcomes his addiction. So i hope you see why i think it's an inspiring way to end his journey.

 

[Travesty]

Im not being a smartass, that's Travesty's job. ".

 

[AnneFan]

Now I'm imagining Bane working the drive thru window at a fast food place, and nobody being able to understand him.

I can picture it too. Batman and Catwoman both drive away from the window in frustration, but return 10 minutes later to try again.

Catwoman: You could have gone anywhere, but you came back.
Batman: So did you.
Catwoman: Well then I guess we're both suckers.