The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 149

[The Joker]

The woman on the floor, yeah that's always been over the top, and that's why ive always laughed at that. It's Raimi. It's not meant to be taken too seriously.

Did you laugh at Norman Osborn's death? If being killed by robotic tentacles is OTT then so being impaled by a flying Goblin glider.

According to you it's Raimi. So that automatically makes it null and void as a serious death.

I haven't seen the first two Spidey movies in theaters so i wouldnt know, but i do know my reaction and the people i know. And ive seen the clip on youtube in the past and i remember people saying it was a fun, funny yet dark Raimi type scene.

Really some Youtube comments? That's it? How many people on Youtube and around the net have you seen call Bane's voice awfully comical, cheesy, and comedic?

 

[shauner111]

It's not the act of being killed by robotic tentacles. Jeez. It's the reactions, the editing, the saw, that's the funny part. Goblin being impaled was pretty straightforward. It's not even the same ballpark.

Ill rephrase, i dont mean everything should be taken as a joke. Like i said, there are scenes in those movies that are serious. Uncle Ben, some scenes with peter and MJ. Absolutely.

They can call Bane's voice funny if they want. Hardy said it was campy english villain at times, mixed with a serious sinister voice. That's the point, it's a balance. You can enjoy that, laugh at it and be horrified. Like Evil Dead back in the 80s. Even the new Evil dead, as brutal as it is. You can laugh at the brutality too.

Why do you guys take everything like it's black OR white. It cant be grey or what?

 

[milost]

You beat me there Joker. That was the same card I was going to play about Bane and user comments.

I just looked at the comments for the scene on youtube and I see a lot of, "man, that's scary", "man, can't believe that was PG-13". Nothing about it being the three "c's". Now Bane? Other than hardcore TDKR fans, who doesn't think Bane is complete lolz? How many times has THAT hilarity been brought up? Only difference? We KNOW Nolan wanted audiences to buy that character as being completely serious, especially with his reluctance and quotes about the voice. Nolan didn't want laughs for Bane and yet, it's happened.

This is literally the first time I've seen anyone say that surgeon scene is cheese, comedy or humorous. Is there an intended horror vibe to it? Yeah. Is Raimi referencing Evil Dead with the surgeon's saw? Yup. But that scene doesn't strike me as cheese or comedy. It doesn't play out as a cartoon and I don't find myself smirking or any thing like that. Is it completely gut wrenching and making me want to puke or cry, "my god, this horrific scene of dismembered surgeons is the most desensitizing thing I've ever seen!" No. But it's played completely straight. It's foreboding and those surgeons are being killed off one by one as Octavius sleeps.

 

[The Joker]

It's not the act of being killed by robotic tentacles. Jeez. It's the reactions, the editing, the saw, that's the funny part. Goblin being impaled was pretty straightforward. It's not even the same ballpark.

It's exactly the same ballpark. What was so funny about the reactions of the doctors and nurses? What was so funny about the editing?

Ill rephrase, i dont mean everything should be taken as a joke. Like i said, there are scenes in those movies that are serious. Uncle Ben, some scenes with peter and MJ. Absolutely.

And the murder of a room full of innocent people, with no music score, all dark lighting, and graphic violence. The fact he left out music in that scene in particular emphasizes how dark it was supposed to be. It was like Joker's torture video of Brian Douglas. One of the darkest most intense Joker scenes in the movie.

They can call Bane's voice funny if they want. Hardy said it was campy english villain at times, mixed with a serious sinister voice. That's the point, it's a balance. You can enjoy that, laugh at it and be horrified. Like Evil Dead back in the 80s. Even the new Evil dead, as brutal as it is. You can laugh at the brutality too.

The difference is Evil Dead is supposed to be a campy comedy horror. It's intentional. Bane was supposed to be a dark fearsome foe. People shouldn't be laughing when they hear him talk.

Same with Batman. Nolan cocked up with their voices.

 

[BatLobster]

There's a difference between fun and funny. Bane's voice is just fun to impersonate, there's just a cool rhythm to the way he spoke. But I don't remember people actually laughing during the movie at his voice any of the 4 times I saw it in theaters.

Also, the Doc Ock hospital scene has nothing on the Brian Douglas torture scene in terms of being disturbing. Raimi just has a cartoony style that underpins a lot of his work. There's a difference between straight horror and camp horror, Raimi's work tends to unabashedly embrace the latter. But that's what I love about Raimi. I watched Evil Dead 2 the other night with a few of my friends (and some drinks) and we just had a ball, nonstop laughter all the way through.

 

[shauner111]

Milost, you're in denial if you think that Doc Ock scene is "played straight". And Joker is too if you think it was as dark and intense as the Joker scene. That's insanely laughable.

Not once have i heard somebody laugh at Bane in the theater. It did its job. Maybe the Doc Ock scene did too back in 2004. But now i laugh at it, as people have fun with Bane's voice. There. I find it funny, you dont. You find Bane's voice ridiculous, i find it entertaining. Can we stop this now?

 

[The Joker]

There's a difference between fun and funny. Bane's voice is just fun to impersonate, there's just a cool rhythm to the way he spoke. But I don't remember people actually laughing during the movie at his voice any of the 4 times I saw it in theaters.

You are in denial, Batlobster, if you don't think Bane's voice is a huge source of comedy to many people. Like the Batman voice, but to a lesser extent, it is a huge target of ridicule for it's comically bad and cheesy sound.

Even you are not too much of a TDKR fanboy to deny that one.

Also, the Doc Ock hospital scene has nothing on the Brian Douglas torture scene in terms of being disturbing.

Why not?

Raimi just has a cartoony style that underpins a lot of his work.

And for the umpteenth time what was so cartoony about that scene? Asked this several times and the only answer we've gotten is one about fingernails scraping on the floor (which is one of the most disturbing parts) and some BS about the editing.

Milost, you're in denial if you think that Doc Ock scene is "played straight". And Joker is too if you think it was as dark and intense as the Joker scene. That's insanely laughable.

Yeah so you keep saying, but it wasn't convincing the first four times you said it either.

Not once have i heard somebody laugh at Bane in the theater. It did its job. Maybe the Doc Ock scene did too back in 2004. But now i laugh at it, as people have fun with Bane's voice. There. I find it funny, you dont. You find Bane's voice ridiculous, i find it entertaining. Can we stop this now?

The difference is you can find endless sources of parodies and mocking of Bane's voice. You can't of the hospital massacre because nobody took it as comical at all.

 

[shauner111]

And your argument isn't very convincing either. You think Bane's voice is cheesy, i realize it's that way for a lot of people, i dont agree though. You take the spidey scene serious when i find a ton of humor in it (i like it btw). So we're even.

...

Can we move on now?

..

 

[DACrowe]

Did you laugh at Norman Osborn's death? If being killed by robotic tentacles is OTT then so being impaled by a flying Goblin glider.

According to you it's Raimi. So that automatically makes it null and void as a serious death.

It is kind of both. That is why Raimi adds the intentionally funny, "Oh," intercut with the actual footage of Norman getting impaled. It is even cut in a way to draw attention to the fact that there is no way in reality that Norman would have time to merit that reaction before being impaled. It practically breaks the fourth wall for the humor.

It then cuts to him rather grisly dying and talking about Harry. The mention of Harry, as well as Norman's apparent shame, immediately grounds the moment back into characters and audience sympathy.

But it is perfect Raimi. A nasty death that plays for audience tears, but still sneaks in, very overtly, a little bit of a gag in there too.

 

[shauner111]

I actually forgot about Normans death scene. The "oh" part is definitely a little funny bit thrown in there. Raimi knew the tone of Spider-Man and did it well. He was the kind of director that could incorporate a lot of humor in odd parts, it worked so well for Spider-Man.

 

[The Joker]

It is kind of both. That is why Raimi adds the intentionally funny, "Oh," intercut with the actual footage of Norman getting impaled. It is even cut in a way to draw attention to the fact that there is no way in reality that Norman would have time to merit that reaction before being impaled. It practically breaks the fourth wall for the humor.

It then cuts to him rather grisly dying and talking about Harry. The mention of Harry, as well as Norman's apparent shame, immediately grounds the moment back into characters and audience sympathy.

The "oh" part is the irony that he realized that he got impaled by something he just tried to impale Spider-Man with. Delicious irony. Not comedy.

Comedy is Bane being blown away out of the blue and Catwoman quipping about no guns rule.

You are entirely correct about the rest. The whole scene is played straight up emotionally. Like Doc Ock's death in Spider-Man 2 when he sacrifices himself.

 

[DACrowe]

Milost, you're in denial if you think that Doc Ock scene is "played straight". And Joker is too if you think it was as dark and intense as the Joker scene. That's insanely laughable.

Not once have i heard somebody laugh at Bane in the theater. It did its job. Maybe the Doc Ock scene did too back in 2004. But now i laugh at it, as people have fun with Bane's voice. There. I find it funny, you dont. You find Bane's voice ridiculous, i find it entertaining. Can we stop this now?

I think what they are missing, and honestly would play into their hating Rises argument, is that with the Doc Ock scene it is INTENTIONALLY meant to be funny on a certain, macabre, gallows humor subversive level.

In the opinion of many haters of Rises, Bane's voice is UNINTENTIONALLY comical and giggle inducing.

Personally, I think Hardy overdid it in one particular scene, and otherwise was on point. I think most people really respond well to Bane because over a year later there are still pop culture references and he is mentioned often as a good Batman villain. And--not to open this can of worms again--people were happy to see Bane done right in Arkham Origins, when many gamers probably did not know who Bane was until 2012. Whether you believe Origins is influenced by Rises or not, Bane's status in pop culture rose in a positive manner.

But yes, there is a vocal group that hate the voice. But that is because it is not meant to be funny. Raimi did go for funny in his own subversive way with the Ock scene in question, so finding it funny is not an insult.

 

[DACrowe]

The "oh" part is the irony that he realized that he got impaled by something he just tried to impale Spider-Man with. Delicious irony. Not comedy.

Comedy is Bane being blown away out of the blue and Catwoman quipping about no guns rule.

You are entirely correct about the rest. The whole scene is played straight up emotionally. Like Doc Ock's death in Spider-Man 2 when he sacrifices himself.

Ock has a very emotional and terrific death scene. Not a hint of irony or comedy. I would agree that Bane's death is played up as an intentional bit of deflation (as was Joker's defeat in TDK). I would call that more irony though and not as on-the-nose comical as "Oh."

Ock had the best of them though. Well him or Two-Face if we're comparing both franchises. Harry had a nice send off as well.

 

[BatLobster]

You are in denial, Batlobster, if you don't think Bane's voice is a huge source of comedy to many people. Like the Batman voice, but to a lesser extent, it is a huge target of ridicule for it's comically bad and cheesy sound.

Even you are not too much of a TDKR fanboy to deny that one.

I'm not denying that, but I don't care for milost's assertion that it's only some sort of fringe group of TDKR "hardcore fanboys" that enjoy the voice/character. And he's totally discounting the fact that some people can find some amusement in the voice AND like it at the same time. Thus they enjoy doing the impersonation. Kevin Smith is a perfect example of this.

The Doc Ock scene...maybe if I wasn't such a huge Evil Dead fan I wouldn't see it that way, but since I am, I can't help but see Raimi blatantly homaging his old school, over the top horror style in that scene. The snap zooms to the chainsaw and the guy reaching for it even make it an overt homage. Even the cheesy "NOOooooOooo!!!" from Ock at the end just feels so B-movie horror.

That's not a criticism of the scene btw, that makes me like it more.

But yes, there is a vocal group that hate the voice. But that is because it is not meant to be funny. Raimi did go for funny in his own subversive way with the Ock scene in question, so finding it funny is not an insult.

Exactly.

 

[The Joker]

Ock has a very emotional and terrific death scene. Not a hint of irony or comedy.

Irony does not always equate to comedy though.

I would agree that Bane's death is played up as an intentional bit of deflation (as was Joker's defeat in TDK).

How was Joker's defeat played that way? He laughed when Batman threw him off the building, then he was ecstatic that Batman couldn't let him go and they were destined to do this forever, then he gloated about what he did to Dent, and was last seen laughing gloriously at his victory while Batman ran off to see what he'd done to Dent.

Don't even compare Joker's final scene to Bane's. Joker went out on a high. Bane went out with a humiliating comical whimper.

I'm not denying that, but I don't care for milost's assertion that it's only some sort of fringe group of TDKR "hardcore fanboys" that enjoy the voice/character. And he's totally discounting the fact that some people can find some amusement in the voice AND like it at the same time. Thus they enjoy doing the impersonation. Kevin Smith is a perfect example of this.

I'm not talking about what milost said. I'm talking about Bane's voice, and how it is a huge source of comedy and ridicule. Almost as much as the Batman voice.

The fact that it wasn't intentional to be seen as that silly or cheesy only makes it ten times worse. We were supposed to be taking it seriously as a commanding voice from a serious intimidating villain.

The Doc Ock scene...maybe if I wasn't such a huge Evil Dead fan I wouldn't see it that way, but since I am, I can't help but see Raimi blatantly homaging his old school, over the top horror style in that scene. The snap zooms to the chainsaw and the guy reaching for it even make it an overt homage.

Those things were a homage to his Evil Dead style. No question. Raimi says it on the movie commentary and all in case anyone might have had doubts. But that doesn't make them comedic or campy because it was executed more darker and seriously.

There was nothing funny about a guy pinned to a wall trying to desperately escape with a medical chainsaw. Or a woman being dragged across the floor to her death with her fingernails scraping the floor. Or the P.O.V. shots of the arms zeroing in on their victims.

Even the cheesy "NOOooooOooo!!!" from Ock at the end just feels so B-movie horror.

The Noooooo part is the only part that feels corny. But like Vader's one I doubt it was done for comedy purpose. It was meant to show the horror and anguish Otto felt when he saw what the arms had done. It was supposed to be a serious emotional moment for the character, but it was executed campy.

 

[shauner111]

The "oh" part is the irony that he realized that he got impaled by something he just tried to impale Spider-Man with. Delicious irony. Not comedy.

 

[GremlinZilla89]

Am I wrong in think irony can/and is used for comedy...? The "oh" is definately meant to be comedic.

 

[The Joker]

Am I wrong in think irony can/and is used for comedy...?

Of course it can. Almost anything can be used for comedy. Someone being murdered can be used for comedy. That doesn't mean they always are. Same with irony.

That goes for the GG death scene. It wasn't played for comedy in the original story it was based off either.

 

[tommygun999]

[YT]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJtRnsJWoQU[/YT]

 

[I Am The Knight]

I have seen it twice. I get Webb's approach the character--a mishmash of committee decisions. Otherwise, the two films he directed wouldn't be so radically different in their interpretation of the character. Ahem.

(DACrowe posts images that show that ASM is too teh dark)

And the sequel:

(DACrowe posts images that show ASM 2 is a neon fluff happy movie).

If you cannot see the literal night-and-day difference (heh) between the visual and tonal styles of these approaches, then you choose not to. Yes, even the night scenes have a nice, shiny neon glow now in TASM2.

Why did TASM take place mostly at night with an almost grungy, industrial grime to it? Because the studio wanted to ape Nolan as that was the flavor of the month pre-Avengers. Now, they are influenced by Avengers and going back to many of the same flourishes as Raimi. That is not an interpretation, that is a committee mandate.

We're just posting pictures of the films right? Sorry, I had to remove your pics as the Hype only allows 10 iimages per post apparently...Anyways. ASM (BTW, I love how you included the "predatory" shot in your post, LOL).

And the sequel:

There's neon in ASM 2 because there is a scene set in....Wait for it...Times Square. BTW, there was plenty of "neon" in ASM, and even the night scenes in the third act had color in them, something that is apparent even in these crappy low res images, and is blatant when watching the ASM Blu-Ray.

Huh? What's that? You compared these images to the ones you posted and realized that both films have light and dark elements to them, and are not simply reduced to being too dark too serious or silly fluff?? Quick, we gotta tell everyone!

 

[milost]

But, wait for it . . . ASM2 totally ripped off of Forever Edward Nygma/Riddler!

 

[shauner111]

It certainly feels like Nygma all over again. I was listening to the Shmoesknow podcast a few months back and they were saying the same thing. Even if it's based off of something in the spidey comics (i havent followed anything spidey-ish in the 2000s), it still happened already in comic book movies. It happened with Batman Forever, pretty much the same characterization, obsession, nerdiness, all that...so why do it? Where the hell is the originality? Oh that's right, they gots to make da' monaaaayyyy!

 

[milost]

 

[BatLobster]

Lol, Dillon is totally Nygma. It's impossible for me to unsee it.

The fact that it wasn't intentional to be seen as that silly or cheesy only makes it ten times worse. We were supposed to be taking it seriously as a commanding voice from a serious intimidating villain.

Fair enough, that's an opinion I can respect. For me, while I enjoy the peculiarity of the accent, I can still take it seriously. Moments like the sewer scene ("Search him...then I will kill you"), the Stock exchange scene ("Time to go mobile"), Daggett's death scene, the sewer fight/breaking scene, the pit scene with Bruce, the scene with Captain Jones are all some examples where I felt Bane sounded really cool and menacing. But to me it's the combination of Hardy's eyes, body language and the voice that make the performance. They all work hand in hand to create the sum total of that characterization.

Those things were a homage to his Evil Dead style. No question. Raimi says it on the movie commentary and all in case anyone might have had doubts. But that doesn't make them comedic or campy because it was executed more darker and seriously.

There was nothing funny about a guy pinned to a wall trying to desperately escape with a medical chainsaw. Or a woman being dragged across the floor to her death with her fingernails scraping the floor. Or the P.O.V. shots of the arms zeroing in on their victims.

The Noooooo part is the only part that feels corny. But like Vader's one I doubt it was done for comedy purpose. It was meant to show the horror and anguish Otto felt when he saw what the arms had done. It was supposed to be a serious emotional moment for the character, but it was executed campy.

Well to be fair, I don't think the scene is "ha ha" funny like some of the more outrageous stuff in Evil Dead. There's some disturbing stuff in there, but as is often the case with Raimi, it's presented in a highly stylized way. I just think Raimi loves and embraces camp so much that he's one of the few directors who can pull off camp in a way where it's mixed in seamlessly with serious stuff. Edgar Wright has that quality too, and he's a huge Raimi fan who started off basically by trying to emulate Raimi's style.

This has probably veered way off what the discussion was even about in the first place, but oh well. Since I just watched Evil Dead 2 recently I guess I was in the mood to talk about Raimi's style. t:

 

[shauner111]

There are scenes when Hardy sounds really scary as Bane. Really menacing. All of those scenes happened to be the ones where he doesn't do ADR. This is why ill be dying to see the original cut of this movie that people like John Campea have seen. Guaranteed, it would wipe out all the criticisms of Bane's voice especially now that everyone has seen the movie and pretty much know all his lines, so they may not have understood it back in 2012 when they originally screened it but ppl wouldn't be bothered anymore if they released it now.

Cmon Nolan.