The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 149

[BatLobster]

John Campea saw the original cut of TDKR? You sure shauner? I figured only WB execs saw that.

 

[milost]

Ah, John Campea. I remember he tore Talia, Bane (especially their plan) and Blake a new one. I don't think he saw something different though.

 

[shauner111]

Somebody told me the other day (in the batman vs superman section) that Campea had claimed back in the summer of 2012, that he attended the very first screening of TDKR. And that nobody could understand what Bane was saying throughout the movie (like the prologue complaints) so when he saw the theatrical release, he said that they changed most of it.

I asked the dude a few times if he was sure it wasn't the 2011 prologue he was talking about and he said nope, Campea saw the screening. So im too lazy lol but if you want to hunt it down Batlobster (or i can tomorrow) that would be cool. If it's true, ill be going crazy the rest of my life trying to see that thing!

 

[BatLobster]

Hmm, depends on the poster if I'd believe that or not. I wouldn't necessarily trust some of the folks on those BvS boards when it comes to having reliable info lol.

If you can hunt it down at some point that'd be cool, a quick bit of googling on my part just yielded nothing so I dunno. That'd be interesting if true, that would make him pretty much the only critic/entertainment reporter to have seen that cut (which screened in like April '12 or so). Just seems a bit out there to me, but I suppose it's possible if he has some sort of contact/connection at WB.

 

[shauner111]

Unless he didn't see it but heard from somebody that did, that Bane's voice was different. Either way, im sure there's a secret cut of the film with his original voice intact. We'll probably never see it and that's a damn shame. It should be with the movie as an audio option or something.

 

[DACrowe]

How was Joker's defeat played that way? He laughed when Batman threw him off the building, then he was ecstatic that Batman couldn't let him go and they were destined to do this forever, then he gloated about what he did to Dent, and was last seen laughing gloriously at his victory while Batman ran off to see what he'd done to Dent.

Don't even compare Joker's final scene to Bane's. Joker went out on a high. Bane went out with a humiliating comical whimper.

Joker was better, but if we wind the clocks back to 2008, I cannot tell you how many people complained that Joker was not the final fight of TDK. I talked to so, so many people who were frustrated that it did not end in a big climax between Batman and Joker, but instead in a moment of complete defeat with Two-Face and Gordon. Granted, I know Joker orchestrated such a moral quagmire for the heroes, and I love the ending because I think the tragedy of Harvey Dent is one of the best aspects of the Bat-mythos and the ending of TDK put it front and center in a way that no one short of Jeph Loeb and Tim Sale had done.

However, for people who were not watching it as an allegory for how civilization responds in the face of senseless violence and terror or as a great tragedy about a guy who dresses as a bat, many wanted it to end "battle for Gotham's soul in a fist fight."

Batman not only killing Joker but rather easily defeating him (throwing him off the building and stringing him up) and leaving him for SWAT while he went to deal with Two-Face was a slap in the face of those who wanted a big climactic showdown a la Batman (1989). Many fans still complain that it ends with "Joker hanging there."

But there is of course a more symbolic beauty of it in that Joker is a psychic scar on Batman and Gotham that can never be fully put away and laughs even in the face of defeat. But for people who want the hero to stop the villain it is intentionally anti-climactic.

But because he was not killed by a woman, a bunch of fanboys did not overreact with a feeling of emasculation for their favorite hero.

Those things were a homage to his Evil Dead style. No question. Raimi says it on the movie commentary and all in case anyone might have had doubts. But that doesn't make them comedic or campy because it was executed more darker and seriously.

There was nothing funny about a guy pinned to a wall trying to desperately escape with a medical chainsaw. Or a woman being dragged across the floor to her death with her fingernails scraping the floor. Or the P.O.V. shots of the arms zeroing in on their victims.



The Noooooo part is the only part that feels corny. But like Vader's one I doubt it was done for comedy purpose. It was meant to show the horror and anguish Otto felt when he saw what the arms had done. It was supposed to be a serious emotional moment for the character, but it was executed campy.

It was not executed any darker than the Evil Dead movies. I would definitely say it goes down much lighter than at least the first ED and most of the second. Art is subjective and all that, but for any fan of Raimi, there is nothing but giggles at seeing the chainsaw and the reach. Sam even had them mix in some goofy sound effects with the quick edits and snap zooms when the bone saw comes into view.

You see, the Vader "Nooo," is not meant to be funny, George Lucas is just a poor storyteller in his old age (arguably always). In Spider-Man 2, it is intentionally funny, not oblivious. It is not corny, it is gallows humor, and honestly quite lighter than a lot of Sam's darkest stuff. And even that all has a comedic bent. Go watch Drag Me to Hell. It ends with the likable protagonist who overcame an eating disorder being dragged kicking and screaming to Hell by demons burning her flesh off as her boyfriend watches with an engagement ring in hand and a tear in his eye.

And Sam means for that movie to be very funny throughout.

I think Sam is a great guy, but he has a very warped sense of humor. The hospital scene was a restrained use of it.

 

[JackWhite]

Bane's voice during the scene in the sewers with Gordon and when he kills Daggett sounds completely different to the prologue and his blackgate speech. I wouldn't doubt it that Bane's voice sounded exactly like the original prologue throughout the film in a first cut and then after complaints they fixed certain scenes.

But here we go again with talks of a possible extended cut of TDKR, lol.

 

[DACrowe]

We're just posting pictures of the films right? Sorry, I had to remove your pics as the Hype only allows 10 iimages per post apparently...Anyways. ASM (BTW, I love how you included the "predatory" shot in your post, LOL).

Huh? What's that? You compared these images to the ones you posted and realized that both films have light and dark elements to them, and are not simply reduced to being too dark too serious or silly fluff?? Quick, we gotta tell everyone!

So to refrain: You do not think that TASM is heavily influenced by Nolan's approach, at least on a studio mandated level, hence Spidey almost killing people, being seen for 90% of his costume time at night, and being marketed as Spdiey "Begins?"

And you also don't think that TASM2 now focusing on bright shiny daylight CGI with a super comic book-y faithful costume with a multitude of villains meant to set up TWO SEQUELS AND TWO SPIN-OFFS WITH VILLAIN TEAM-UPS is not influenced by the Avengers?

 

[The Joker]

Joker was better, but if we wind the clocks back to 2008, I cannot tell you how many people complained that Joker was not the final fight of TDK.

I can tell you because I was here in 2008, and the answer is barely any, if any at all.

I talked to so, so many people who were frustrated that it did not end in a big climax between Batman and Joker, but instead in a moment of complete defeat with Two-Face and Gordon. Granted, I know Joker orchestrated such a moral quagmire for the heroes, and I love the ending because I think the tragedy of Harvey Dent is one of the best aspects of the Bat-mythos and the ending of TDK put it front and center in a way that no one short of Jeph Loeb and Tim Sale had done.

You must be have been having these discussions in obscure threads or something. If you can dig some of these complaints up, even from another source, it doesn't have to be from here, to show that it was a typical complaint back then, I'd appreciate it.

Because I don't believe that was a real source of any noticeable outrage from fans at all.

Batman not only killing Joker but rather easily defeating him (throwing him off the building and stringing him up) and leaving him for SWAT while he went to deal with Two-Face was a slap in the face of those who wanted a big climactic showdown a la Batman (1989). Many fans still complain that it ends with "Joker hanging there."

Where? I don't believe that for a minute. Show me examples of this if as you claim many people are complaining about that. Let me see some examples. Should be easy to find plenty if so many are complaining about it even today.

But because he was not killed by a woman, a bunch of fanboys did not overreact with a feeling of emasculation for their favorite hero.

The fact that Bane got killed by a woman is not the problem at all. If someone has a cool death, it doesn't matter if it's a man or a woman who killed him. Especially if he was blown away by a big cannon gun. It's not exactly a wussy weapon to die from. It's the quick nonchalant way he was just disposed of, followed by a quippy line, and then forgotten about for the remainder of the movie. In short it was a pathetic exit for a supposedly great villain.

It was not executed any darker than the Evil Dead movies.

Yes it was, because it was missing the camp touch and humor that went with those movies.

I would definitely say it goes down much lighter than at least the first ED and most of the second.

I wouldn't. Your definition of light leaves a lot to be desired.

Art is subjective and all that, but for any fan of Raimi, there is nothing but giggles at seeing the chainsaw and the reach.

It's got nothing to do with being a fan of Raimi. People in the audience who don't know Raimi for Evil Dead wouldn't even get that homage and just see it as it's played out. Dark and serious.

The only thing that could make someone legitimately smile in that scene is picking up the fact there is Evil Dead homages in it. That's all. Anyone actually finding the content of that scene funny or amusing has a warped sense of humor.

Sam even had them mix in some goofy sound effects with the quick edits and snap zooms when the bone saw comes into view.

There is no goofy sound effects. What effect do the quick edits and zooms on the saw have on the tone of it? Nothing.

You see, the Vader "Nooo," is not meant to be funny

Neither is Ock's. If you think Raimi was trying to put a campy comedy touch on the scene where the villain realizes the horror his own creation has done, then you give him less credit as a film maker than I do.

And Sam means for that movie to be very funny throughout.

Does he really? So were you laughing when MJ rejected Peter at the party? In the Uncle Ben dream scene? When Aunt May broke down in tears giving Peter the 20 bucks on his birthday? When Peter threw his Spider-Man costume away? When Harry got drunk and hit Peter in public? When Peter confessed to Aunt May about his role in Uncle Ben's death? When Ock sacrificed himself? When the train passengers saved Peter? When Harry saw Norman in the mirror? When Harry unmasked Spider-Man? And so on and so on?

Don't kid yourself. Spider-Man 2 had plenty of it's serious scenes and moments to balance out the more lighter comedy ones, the Ock hospital massacre scene included. It's why it's seen as the best most well balanced of the Spider-Man movies.

 

[BatLobster]

Bane's voice during the scene in the sewers with Gordon and when he kills Daggett sounds completely different to the prologue and his blackgate speech. I wouldn't doubt it that Bane's voice sounded exactly like the original prologue throughout the film in a first cut and then after complaints they fixed certain scenes.

But here we go again with talks of a possible extended cut of TDKR, lol.

Yupppp hahaha, I was thinking the same thing JackWhite. It's the next link in the infinite loop that is TDKR discussion. Gotta break the cycle eventually or it's discussing the same stuff every few months...

Spoiler

 

[JackWhite]

Yupppp hahaha, I was thinking the same thing JackWhite. It's the next link in the infinite loop that is TDKR discussion. Gotta break the cycle eventually or it's discussing the same stuff every few months...

Spoiler

lol, all this TDKR talk is really making me want to watch the trilogy again, especially Rises. Dat IMAX!

 

[DACrowe]

I was talking about Drag Me to Hell, not SM2. Albeit, DMH has much worse things happen to characters than SM2 does, and I would consider DMH to be the more thorough comedy (at least save for two or three genuinely creepy scenes).

More in a second on what you want.

And again, I think Joker's exit, while less sudden, was intentionally deflating with the way the music cuts out and he is just hanging there. As is Bane's. As was Scarecrow's in BB. The only time Nolan seemed to give a villain an "epic" end in the way fans like was Ra's Al Ghul or maybe Two-Face.

At least Bane did not get smashed five hundred times by Hulk and called puny? Except that is one of my favorite scenes in Avengers, so what do I know...

 

[The Joker]

I was talking about Drag Me to Hell, not SM2. Albeit, DMH has much worse things happen to characters than SM2 does, and I would consider DMH to be the more thorough comedy (at least save for two or three genuinely creepy scenes).

Then it's not a proper horror movie is it? It's a horror-comedy.

More in a second on what you want.

Look forward to it.

And again, I think Joker's exit, while less sudden, was intentionally deflating with the way the music cuts out and he is just hanging there. As is Bane's. As was Scarecrow's in BB. The only time Nolan seemed to give a villain an "epic" end in the way fans like was Ra's Al Ghul or maybe Two-Face.

You think. You're a very small minority. And furthermore Joker was not just left hanging there. You see the SWAT team arrive to find him. He wasn't just left there on his todd by Batman to swing by himself laughing. You got closure there that he was found by the Cops and obviously taken into custody and locked up. It didn't leave you wondering if anyone found him.

At least Bane did not get smashed five hundred times by Hulk and called puny? Except that is one of my favorite scenes in Avengers, so what do I know...

If that scene had been Loki's last stand it would have been ridiculed to the max. But he lived, and he also went on to be in Thor 2.

 

[DACrowe]

Eh, I don't feel like thread diving right now. I may in the future, but if it makes you feel better I still have two friends (not superhero or comics folks) who dislike that ending because they were disappointed it was not Batman v. Joker. I will go thread diving tomorrow to see if I can find the hardcore complaining, but I remember those complaints in 2008 very well.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I definitely remember lots of complaints about Joker's defeat being anti-climatic too. But I would have no idea where to go and look to find it as the movie came out six years ago. I'm not about to spend hours wading through six years of posts about arguably the most talked about comic book film ever. I can't exactly go to mainstream sources as the response to the film was overwhelmingly positive outside of comic book fans.

But on here, a lot of people hated the ending and third act in general. There was also a lot of people in denial that Two-Face was actually dead.

 

[BatLobster]

Ohhh man all the "Two-Face is still alive and locked up in secret in Arkham!" denial. It annoyed the crap out of me at the time, but I'm oddly nostalgic for it now.

 

[Schlosser85]

Didn't someone say you could see Ra's jump from the train right before it crashed?

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

The Doc Ock scene...maybe if I wasn't such a huge Evil Dead fan I wouldn't see it that way, but since I am, I can't help but see Raimi blatantly homaging his old school, over the top horror style in that scene. The snap zooms to the chainsaw and the guy reaching for it even make it an overt homage. Even the cheesy "NOOooooOooo!!!" from Ock at the end just feels so B-movie horror.

That's not a criticism of the scene btw, that makes me like it more.

Well, I'm not a big Evil Dead fan (although I saw the trilogy and enjoyed them, haven't seen the remake) and I noticed the same thing you did.

It is one of my favorite scenes in the film, but it is clearly meant to be a homage to cheesy B-horror films. Classic Raimi.

 

[The Joker]

Eh, I don't feel like thread diving right now. I may in the future, but if it makes you feel better I still have two friends (not superhero or comics folks) who dislike that ending because they were disappointed it was not Batman v. Joker. I will go thread diving tomorrow to see if I can find the hardcore complaining, but I remember those complaints in 2008 very well.

Take your time. I'm not going anywhere.

I definitely remember lots of complaints about Joker's defeat being anti-climatic too. But I would have no idea where to go and look to find it as the movie came out six years ago. I'm not about to spend hours wading through six years of posts about arguably the most talked about comic book film ever. I can't exactly go to mainstream sources as the response to the film was overwhelmingly positive outside of comic book fans.

But on here, a lot of people hated the ending and third act in general. There was also a lot of people in denial that Two-Face was actually dead.

You don't need to go wading through six years of posts. If it was a common complaint like you and DaCrowe are claiming, then it would be easy to find with a mere Google search, like the Two Face is still being alive one. That's a legit one, and easy to find a hundred sources for that with a quick Google search. Took me a minute just to find these ones;

http://ie.ign.com/articles/2008/08/13/two-face-dead-or-alive

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080721211638AAfKSll

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_I6JYMjelpI

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-541142-will-harvey-dent-be-back.html

http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/33300/t1215943-two-face-dead-alive/

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/4997619/1/Is-Harvey-Dent-really-dead

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/archive/index.php/t-232621.html

http://soulpancake.com/conversation...t-actually-die-at-the-end-of-dark-knight.html

http://www.batman-on-film.com/opinion_WILL_TWOFACE-RETURN_MarkHughes_1-28-10.html

http://them0vieblog.com/2009/09/03/should-harvey-dent-return-in-batman-3/


Similarly I don't need to go rooting through the SHH archives to find proof loads of people hated Bane's death;

http://www.sparknotes.com/mindhut/2012/10/17/5-villains-with-dumb-deaths

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120816094411AAWEqs1

http://whatculture.com/film/10-most-criminally-anti-climactic-deaths-in-film-history.php/5

http://bestrooftalkever.com/post/28133654244/my-review-of-the-dark-knight-rises-as-a-series-of

http://screenrant.com/sr-geek-picks-alternate-death-scene-bane-dark-knight-rises/

http://ourbrainhurtsalot.wordpress.com/2012/07/30/nolans-bane-how-to-not-make-a-villain/

http://screen-watch.com/2013/10/12/5-most-disappointing-movie-deaths/

Now lets see lots of links for the complaints about the Joker's defeat. Because if you can't then you're blowing out of proportion what I can only logically assume was a small vocal minority that you may have encountered back in '08.

It is one of my favorite scenes in the film, but it is clearly meant to be a homage to cheesy B-horror films. Classic Raimi.

Really;

There's a very violent and graphic sequence in a hospital

http://www.darkhorizons.com/reviews/724/spider-man-2

There is also a particularly disturbing scene in a hospital. Several doctors are trying to treat an unconscious ‘Doc Ock’, when the robotic ‘limbs’ fused to his spine violently come to life, killing everyone. The characters are killed by being thrown through glass, into walls, electrocution and, in the case of one female doctor, being dragged out of shot into the darkness with her fingernails scraping along the floor. While there is no blood, the brutality of the fast and aggressive limbs which act with intelligent malice throughout is somewhat disturbing.

http://isthismoviesuitable.com/2013/02/13/spider-man-2/

scary hospital scene where mechanical arms go berserk attacking and killing doctors and nurses

http://www.movieguide.org/reviews/SpiderMan-2.html

Should I keep posting more?

 

[BLobo]

small vocal minority that you may have encountered back in '08.

Like the small vocal minority who thinks TDKR is a weak movie.

 

[I Am The Knight]

So to refrain: You do not think that TASM is heavily influenced by Nolan's approach, at least on a studio mandated level,

The studio might have had that in mind, but the final product is a different beast, so it becomes irrelevant at the end of the day.

hence Spidey almost killing people,

Wrong....

being seen for 90% of his costume time at night,

It was closer to 65%, seeing as how the sewer scene actually takes place in the afternoon, but there ain't much sunshine down there.

and being marketed as Spdiey "Begins?"

Just like MOS looked like a Terrence Malick flick starring Superman, but was actually something much different.

And you also don't think that TASM2 now focusing on bright shiny daylight CGI with a super comic book-y faithful costume with a multitude of villains meant to set up TWO SEQUELS AND TWO SPIN-OFFS WITH VILLAIN TEAM-UPS is not influenced by the Avengers?

Not much more bright CGI than what has been previousy seen in ASM. I already explained the costume. This is also not the first time Spidey has fought many villains in one of his movies, as surely you remember Spider-Man 3, a movie that predates The Avengers by a good 5 years (not that I'm comparing ASM 2 to SM3 ) Of course the studio would want in on that Avengers money, every other big studio is trying to do that, but as far as I can see, here it is being done as a natural progression of what has already been stablished in ASM. Oscorp being the root of all evil that would make possible the rise of these villains was an idea already floating around in 2012 thanks to the little nods that Webb added to the movie. We'll have to just wait and see the movie to determine wheter Webb actually did a 180 with ASM 2 or not.

 

[I Am The Knight]

Didn't someone say you could see Ra's jump from the train right before it crashed?

Yeah, they posted a screencap to prove it

 

[DACrowe]

I definitely remember lots of complaints about Joker's defeat being anti-climatic too. But I would have no idea where to go and look to find it as the movie came out six years ago. I'm not about to spend hours wading through six years of posts about arguably the most talked about comic book film ever. I can't exactly go to mainstream sources as the response to the film was overwhelmingly positive outside of comic book fans.

But on here, a lot of people hated the ending and third act in general. There was also a lot of people in denial that Two-Face was actually dead.

Yes. Remember all the complaints that Batman didn't throw a Batarang at Two-Face and instead lunged him? They were furious about that too.

 

[DACrowe]

Hey look a whole thread devoted to how a vocal minority hated the way TDK wrapped up the Joker ending and/or Batman killing Dent.

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=315309

That discussion apparently only went on months. Amateurs.

 

[The Joker]

Like the small vocal minority who thinks TDKR is a weak movie.

Who here said the majority hates TDKR?

Hey look a whole thread devoted to how a vocal minority hated the way TDK wrapped up the Joker ending and/or Batman killing Dent.

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=315309

That discussion apparently only went on months. Amateurs.

I'm reading through this thread, and I see the majority of the posters defending it, including yourself. But most important of all, I don't see posts of people complaining about the Joker's defeat like you originally claimed happened a lot back then, and still does.