The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 149

[Visceral]

there was a collage professor from the university of chicago who analyzed inception and said "all of Nolan's characters are men who have obessions an live in the here and now, probelm is they accompleish their goals, their wish is granted and they still feel like it hasnt been."

What if batman's obsession was accomplished, could he still fight crime if there was no crime? maybe he shousd arrest innocent people.

Miller wrote DTKR with the mind set that his anger could never be satisified because batman was trying to accomplish a fools errand athat couldnt be accoplished.

Also comtemplate this.

Its thurs dya

Im drubnlk

 

[Shikamaru]

We could also say that Nolan didn't have the "balls" to kill off Batman/Bruce Wayne or that he simply couldn't if he wanted to.

True. If anything, that would have been much more of a "ballsy" move. Heck, it would have been completely new fresh territory, since the idea's never been done in any other medium before while Bruce quitting has (though not in the same way as TDKR).

 

[milost]

True. If anything, that would have been much more of a "ballsy" move. Heck, it would have been completely new fresh territory, since the idea's never been done in any other medium before while Bruce quitting has (though not in the same way as TDKR).

Batman dying for his city would have been hardcore and obsession/dedication to the max. Like a hero of old epics, myths and tales.

Instead he tricks and lies to the city (again) with his "no autopilot" shenanigans. Some hero.

 

[The Joker]

True. If anything, that would have been much more of a "ballsy" move. Heck, it would have been completely new fresh territory, since the idea's never been done in any other medium before while Bruce quitting has (though not in the same way as TDKR).

And more bittersweet and in line with the character, because we could all imagine Bruce dying while being Batman. Dying on the job. His obsession bringing about his end.

That's more hard hitting and emotional than the quitting happy ever after he had. More heroic, too. Dying saving the city, instead of pretending he did and letting the city erect a statue for him and believe he gave his life for them.

 

[shauner111]

Maybe we're all wrong and he's just moved on from Gotham. Left it to Blake. And is still using his obsession to become Batman in another part of the world that needs help with their criminals. Slowly taking the bat symbol out to the world, and multiplying it as time goes on.

 

[milost]

So Nolan didn't really give us an ending. What a twist!

 

[Shikamaru]

Maybe we're all wrong and he's just moved on from Gotham. Left it to Blake. And is still using his obsession to become Batman in another part of the world that needs help with their criminals. Slowly taking the bat symbol out to the world, and multiplying it as time goes on.

That's reeeeeeeeally stretching, dude. It's not in the movie. Nolan would have made that clear.

And more bittersweet and in line with the character, because we could all imagine Bruce dying while being Batman. Dying on the job. His obsession bringing about his end.

That's more hard hitting and emotional than the quitting happy ever after he had. More heroic, too. Dying saving the city, instead of pretending he did and letting the city erect a statue for him and believe he gave his life for them.

And more than that, it would be ambiguous too (in a good way). It would please everyone; both those pro-quitting and against it. You could argue that Bruce's dedication to Batman is what made him a true legend by dying for Gotham, but you could also see it as a tragedy due to his obsession bringing his demise.

 

[shauner111]

Anything is possible. It's an ending for me but there's different ways to look at Bruce's future. I said this during the Justice League rumors. Bruce returning to Gotham to replace Blake and be batman again or the billionaire Bruce Wayne, would **** all over Rises. But maybe as long as he's out of Gotham, finds inner peace for a while. For the first time since he was 8. Then gets back into it in a different country who needs help, spreading the symbol..while Blake does the same on his end. Hey, i can live with that idea.

Its not in the movie Shika, i know, but that's the point of being the audience, we can use our imagination to see what happens after. Nolan likes to end his movies so we all have something to think about. Lots of filmmakers or actors (McConaughey talked about this recently) like for themselves and the fans to think of where the characters are going to go after the movie is done.

 

[Shikamaru]

That would be a retcon though. Nolan was clearly going TDKR being the final chapter to his Batman altogether, especially with the whole "Epic end to the epic three-act trilogy" marketing.

 

[shauner111]

Nope that's not a retcon to me. Even Jonah Nolan talked about how he could be dead at the end even if Chris says no to that. Chris never answered Jonah when he asked him about that actually.

I agree that it's the end of everything for Bruce as Batman. But my second option that wouldnt retcon it, would be of him doing what Alfred said...leaving Gotham, leaving that damn cave, and for the first time, finding some peace, maybe even fall in love. All of those things can be checked off. Then if he returns to be Batman somewhere else, sure he still has those demons like you guys suggest. But it's more to help others and spread the symbol in other places that aren't Gotham.

 

[milost]

"that damn cave"


Do you even like Batman Shauner?

 

[Shikamaru]

Nope that's not a retcon to me. Even Jonah Nolan talked about how he could be dead at the end even if Chris says no to that. Chris never answered Jonah when he asked him about that actually.

I agree that it's the end of everything for Bruce as Batman. But my second option that wouldnt retcon it, would be of him doing what Alfred said...leaving Gotham, leaving that damn cave, and for the first time, finding some peace, maybe even fall in love. All of those things can be checked off. Then if he returns to be Batman somewhere else, sure he still has those demons like you guys suggest. But it's more to help others and spread the symbol in other places that aren't Gotham.

You just described Morrison's Batman Inc.

But technically, wouldn't that have been a bad idea since the comics have already done it?

 

[shauner111]

"that damn cave"


Do you even like Batman Shauner?

I was saying it in the way that Alfred was talking about the cave to Bruce. Paraphrasing of course.

You just described Morrison's Batman Inc.

But technically speaking, wouldn't that have been a bad idea since the comics have already done it?

Haha true dat! That batman inc concept was something me and Rodrigo were going on and on about if you remember back in the JLA days. Those were fun!

 

[DarthDorranceBane]

So a writer's interpretation of Batman whose characteristics are build up along a span of time and by multiple writers is invalid when it's telling a story of how he got over his obsession of being Batman and is the most terrible of the interpretation and doesn't deserved to be recognized as a Batman story along with a multitude of other Batman stories existing out there so TDKR sucks. Okay I got it.

 

[Travesty]

That's one long sentence.

 

[milost]

Try reading that aloud, 2xs fast, without pause. It'll make you pass out.

 

[gugumugats]

No, Adam West was an excellent Batman. He never gave up the mantle to live a normal life. In fact he generally shunned the idea of romance or any semblance of something that would bring regular normality to Bruce Wayne's life because it wouldn't fit into his life as Batman.

The only time he showed a genuine interest in a woman was Miss Kitka in the spin off movie, and she turned out to be Catwoman messing with him.



That's not the same as visiting their graves before he leaves. That's just making sure Gotham remembers their names and his. Like leaving a legacy.



"Those pearls do look better on you than they did in my safe"

I think it was more case of since he and Selina were now an item instead of her being a thief who stole from him, and he knew she liked them "She likes them too much", he let her have them.



There is no parallel there. Talia was seeking revenge against the man who she thinks killed her father. Bruce was seeking justice by fighting crime. "I seek the means to fight injustice. To turn fear against those who prey on the fearful".



He didn't have to talk to them. Just visit them.

I still think there's a parallel between Talia and Bruce. She wasn't just committing revenge against Bruce but she was also obsessed with fulfilling her father's legacy of destroying Gotham. This isn't about revenge vs. justice the parallel is the obsession in fulfilling a promise to their parents.


I also don't think that it's all that important to show a scene of him visiting his parents' grave in the movie. IMO that feels like a waste of screentime given that he's still acknowledging their legacy.

If you haven't got the knowledge, training and know how to do that to Batman level standard, then your will and altruism isn't worth jack.


Most of the Cops survived Bane's siege. Slipping a note down on a string through a sewer grate hardly makes him Batman material. And the deduction of Batman's identity was one of the stupidest written scenes ever.

Blake's actions in this movie don't equate to someone who shows he's a possible capable Batman. He didn't save Gordon in the hospital. Gordon saved himself. He didn't save the Cops underground. Batman did, and he saved Blake's life, too, after he got caught in his clumsy attempt to save them by himself. He killed two suspects at the construction site, and he looked like he didn't even realize shooting them would kill them.

Terry initially stole the suit, which was a high tech suit with all kinds of advanced gadgetry in it. After Terry showed promise in the suit by foiling the criminals at W.E. Bruce accepted him. Not to mention Terry was CONSTANTLY under Bruce's guidance and supervision.

Ok, Blake is incompetent. However, I still think he's pretty resourceful and clever (at least from what we're shown).

I brought up Terry in regards to the Pilot episode when Bruce finally returned control of the suit and not after the fact that he was being supervised by Bruce.

No. How is any of this out of character? Batman makes mistakes. He's not infallible. But he learns from them. Like in TDK when Joker tricked him into saving Dent instead of Rachel. Batman learned from that. Later in the movie he sees through Joker's Prewitt Building set up.

"It's not that simple. With the Joker it never is".

As for marrying Catwoman, he married a good girl version of the character. One who had reformed and changed her ways. Like Selina at the end of Rises who came back, saved his life, and helped him save the city.

That's one criticism people made against the end of Rises that I don't agree with. Selina had proven herself when she did that. She could have left Gotham and saved herself. But she came back and did the right thing.

I think we both agree here. I wasn't that bothered that he ended up pursuing something with Selina the way most people were given her previous betrayal. I was responding to somebody saying that Bruce being with Selina is totally against his character (of which I think is the opposite).

Obsession. He will never give up Batman indefinitely. He is just not psychologically wired that way.

I think one of the themes of the movie was overcoming that obsession. That was the also the contrast against Bane/Talia (hence Bane saying he never escaped the pit) in that they ended up being totally consumed by their obsessions and needlessly giving their lives for it.

I think Batman being able to give it up is open to interpretation and doesn't necessarily go against the grain of the character.

I will say though that Batman Beyond and TDKReturns are also amongst my favorite "endings" for the Batman legend, so I have nothing against the forever obsessed Bruce, but TDKRises is by far my favorite (i'm a sucker for happy endings).

 

[The Joker]

I still think there's a parallel between Talia and Bruce. She wasn't just committing revenge against Bruce but she was also obsessed with fulfilling her father's legacy of destroying Gotham. This isn't about revenge vs. justice the parallel is the obsession in fulfilling a promise to their parents.

But Talia never made any promise to her parents. She didn't even like her father for what he did, and was not even forgiving of Ra's until he died. Then she takes it upon herself to finish something he died doing, and getting revenge on Batman, too.

That's not at all similar to Bruce and how he dealt with the death of his parents.

I also don't think that it's all that important to show a scene of him visiting his parents' grave in the movie. IMO that feels like a waste of screentime given that he's still acknowledging their legacy.

I do. Bruce was leaving his home presumably for good. His parents home. Where they were laid to rest. A final goodbye before he walks away from this forever was not a waste.

It was more of a waste to see Alfred blubbering over Bruce's grave when he finds out he's still alive 5 minutes later.

Ok, Blake is incompetent. However, I still think he's pretty resourceful and clever (at least from what we're shown).

Sure he was a good Cop but that doesn't make him the top candidate to be Batman. I can't fathom what made Bruce think beyond a doubt he was the guy for the job.

At least in Begins Ra's tested Bruce before he accepted him for training. Bruce tested Dent before he decided he was a better hero than Batman could be for Gotham.

Blake got no test from Bruce. Bruce didn't see anything from him that could impress him beyond a doubt that he was the guy to inherit the Batman mantle.

I brought up Terry in regards to the Pilot episode when Bruce finally returned control of the suit and not after the fact that he was being supervised by Bruce.

Ok, but you see the big difference there. Terry was never left alone while Bruce went off abroad. He was there all the time training, monitoring, and supervising Terry. Even helping him in the field on occasion.

I think we both agree here. I wasn't that bothered that he ended up pursuing something with Selina the way most people were given her previous betrayal. I was responding to somebody saying that Bruce being with Selina is totally against his character (of which I think is the opposite).

Ok cool.

I think one of the themes of the movie was overcoming that obsession. That was the also the contrast against Bane/Talia (hence Bane saying he never escaped the pit) in that they ended up being totally consumed by their obsessions and needlessly giving their lives for it.

The pit had nothing to do with obsession. It was about fear. Finding his fear again. He was in a state of mind that he didn't care if he died.

Bane and Talia were not obsessed. Not like Bruce. Going by their back story they didn't care until Ra's died. Bane had been kicked out of the LOS, and Talia had cut herself off from her dad. So it was not like a life long obsession. It was just something they took upon themselves to do after Ra's died. Heck Bane was a grown ass man when he first met Talia lol.

I think Batman being able to give it up is open to interpretation and doesn't necessarily go against the grain of the character.

I'm afraid it does since he has never given it up indefinitely in any medium. Even in Beyond he is living it through Terry.

I will say though that Batman Beyond and TDKReturns are also amongst my favorite "endings" for the Batman legend, so I have nothing against the forever obsessed Bruce, but TDKRises is by far my favorite (i'm a sucker for happy endings).

That's fair enough. That's your preference.

 

[gugumugats]

But Talia never made any promise to her parents. She didn't even like her father for what he did, and was not even forgiving of Ra's until he died. Then she takes it upon herself to finish something he died doing, and getting revenge on Batman, too.

That's not at all similar to Bruce and how he dealt with the death of his parents.

ok, promise was a poor choice of words. But Bruce did take it upon himself to finish something his parents died doing: trying to save Gotham.

I still think that Nolan intended a parallel between Talia and Bruce and how each one has taken upon a mission in the name of their parents.

I also think that Talia and Bane were obsessed. If dying for a cause is not a sign of obsession, then I guess they're just something else.

I do. Bruce was leaving his home presumably for good. His parents home. Where they were laid to rest. A final goodbye before he walks away from this forever was not a waste.

It was more of a waste to see Alfred blubbering over Bruce's grave when he finds out he's still alive 5 minutes later.

Good points. I did hate seeing Alfred blubber.

Sure he was a good Cop but that doesn't make him the top candidate to be Batman. I can't fathom what made Bruce think beyond a doubt he was the guy for the job.

At least in Begins Ra's tested Bruce before he accepted him for training. Bruce tested Dent before he decided he was a better hero than Batman could be for Gotham.

Blake got no test from Bruce. Bruce didn't see anything from him that could impress him beyond a doubt that he was the guy to inherit the Batman mantle.

I'd like to imagine that the directions to the Batcave involved some kind of test, but that's just me. It might've been super simple directions.

The pit had nothing to do with obsession. It was about fear. Finding his fear again. He was in a state of mind that he didn't care if he died.

Bane and Talia were not obsessed. Not like Bruce. Going by their back story they didn't care until Ra's died. Bane had been kicked out of the LOS, and Talia had cut herself off from her dad. So it was not like a life long obsession. It was just something they took upon themselves to do after Ra's died. Heck Bane was a grown ass man when he first met Talia lol.

I think the pit is more than just that. Finding his fear of death was just one way of escaping the pit (both the literal and figurative one). Bane never left his pit, and I dont think it has to do with not caring about death. There's also a parallel made between Batman and Bane when the prisoner states that "the mask holds the pain at bay."

Life-long obsession or not, both Bruce and Talia took upon their missions after their parents died. I don't think Bruce cared much about fighting crime before his parents died. I still think there's a parallel between Bruce and Talia.

To sum up my thoughts on Talia and Bane, I think that one of Nolan's intentions was that Bane is like an anti-Batman while Talia is like the anti-Bruce.

 

[Tequilla]

there was a collage professor from the university of chicago who analyzed inception and said "all of Nolan's characters are men who have obessions an live in the here and now, probelm is they accompleish their goals, their wish is granted and they still feel like it hasnt been."

What if batman's obsession was accomplished, could he still fight crime if there was no crime? maybe he shousd arrest innocent people.

This is contemplated in the beginning of Rises. How he treats his duality. Unable to accomplish anything as a citizen (Bruce) and is irrelevancy has Batman makes him close himself . The obsession propagates him into vegetating in that limbo. When it''s awake , he is once again in the path of self-destruction , has Alfred points him out. His ability to release himself from that , it's his greatest accomplishment.

 

[gugumugats]

This is contemplated in the beginning of Rises. How he treats his duality. Unable to accomplish anything as a citizen (Bruce) and is irrelevancy has Batman makes him close himself . The obsession propagates him into vegetating in that limbo. When it''s awake , he is once again in the path of self-destruction , has Alfred points him out. His ability to release himself from that , it's his greatest accomplishment.

Wow, I never thought of it that way, that overcoming his obsession is his greatest accomplishment.

Reminds of what Grant Morrison said; that Batman with all of his mental and martial art training and accomplishments should have been able to his rage and guilt.

http://www.dccomics.com/blog/2013/08/28/grant-morrisons-wacky-batman-adventure

 

[The Joker]

ok, promise was a poor choice of words. But Bruce did take it upon himself to finish something his parents died doing: trying to save Gotham.

His parents did not die trying to save Gotham. His parents, specifically his father, tried to combat poverty, not crime.

I still think that Nolan intended a parallel between Talia and Bruce and how each one has taken upon a mission in the name of their parents.

I don't. When Nolan makes thematic parallels they are usually spelled out. There was none there with Bruce and Talia. No common threads between them and their pasts.

I also think that Talia and Bane were obsessed. If dying for a cause is not a sign of obsession, then I guess they're just something else.

They're insane. Bane willing to die for a cause by a man who hated him and kicked him out of his gang. No, makes no sense. Bane was doing it for Talia because he loved her.

I'd like to imagine that the directions to the Batcave involved some kind of test, but that's just me. It might've been super simple directions.

Assuming that's even true, Bruce wasn't there to see him do the test...

I think the pit is more than just that. Finding his fear of death was just one way of escaping the pit (both the literal and figurative one). Bane never left his pit, and I dont think it has to do with not caring about death. There's also a parallel made between Batman and Bane when the prisoner states that "the mask holds the pain at bay."

None of the other inmates in the pit escaped the pit either. I doubt none of them were not afraid to die. That doesn't give them any parallel to Bruce either.

Bane was no different to them in that regard.

Life-long obsession or not, both Bruce and Talia took upon their missions after their parents died. I don't think Bruce cared much about fighting crime before his parents died. I still think there's a parallel between Bruce and Talia.

Talia's mother died in the pit. She didn't take up any mission then. It wasn't until Ra's died that she decided to finish his work. And she was a grown woman by then.

Bruce lost both his parents as a child, and he didn't take up a mission to save the city from poverty, he went to fight crime and injustice.

If there was a parallel here thematically between Bane, Talia, and Bruce it would be very evident in the movie. Like the hero with/without a mask parallel between Dent and Batman in TDK.

 

[Xandrea]

Exactly

A bad character adaption is the kind that misses the core essence of the character.

For the record Nolan did not make him more human. He just made him less interesting. He made Bruce get over his Batman obsession. He healed him. That takes away the main thing that makes Bruce such a an interesting character.

Healing him is the most interesting and straight up daring thing he could do for this character. Far more daring than killing him.

 

[The Shape]

Healing him is the most interesting and straight up daring thing he could do for this character. Far more daring than killing him.

I'm gonna have to agree here. Not sure if it was the most interesting they could have done, but to me, it was more interesting than seeing him literally die.

I don't think killing Batman would have been any more "ballsy" than the ending we got. Batman dying is exactly what many people expected would happen or wanted to happen leading up the film's release. I thought it would have almost been the "easy" way out then and I still do today.

 

[craigdbfan]

Likewise.