The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - Part 152

[Victarion]

The plot is a bit more nuanced than Ra's. Whereas Ra's relied on a drug, Bane and Talia preyed on human nature, which makes the conflict all the more interesting: these are people indulging in all the lovely things that come with a revolution: looting, murder, and other...things of their own volition, rather than some drug. Given that everyone expected Riddler, going with a Riddler plot would clearly be the safer, blander decision, as would having Bruce stick around Gotham in any capacity.

Let's say Nolan went with a hard sci-fi feel for TDKR, and had set the film even further into the future. Let's even say that the current mayor wanted to lean more toward militarizing the GPD to maintain peace. Do you think this aesthetic would ruin the trilogy's visual and narrative consistency?

 

[BatLobster]

I know he's not talking literally, but it was still just taken a lot further to the point that it makes what Ra's accomplished (taking out the Narrows) look like child's play. We actually see the city brought to its knees entirely, which was the threat that was always dangling in the previous films that finally comes to fruition in Rises. Joker preaches about anarchy and chaos, but it's not until the siege that we actually get to see law and order completely break down in Gotham.

The problem with Riddler for the third movie is it makes it just about the mind, but it really needed to be a mind/body/spirit fight. Besides, leaving the Riddler off the table gives the DCU a very popular villain who's due for a new cinematic interpretation (along with Penguin).

And yeah Victorian, the relying on human nature aspect is key too and kind of fuses the philosophies of Ra's and The Joker.

 

[shauner111]

So I thought of this the other day and I wanna know what some of you think.

Personally I find Rises just good. I do think Nolan played it a little so safe bringing the League of Shadows back.

Bane and Talia and the League shouldn't have been the villains. Bane and Talia did nothing that Ra's didn't do it Begins. I think Riddler really should have been the villain. Think about it. Keeping the Dent Act and peace in Gotham, we have Riddler testing Gotham with how much they know the city. Think of Riddler revealing the cover up of Harvey's death, think of it if there was a camera in the vault that Joker stole from the bank in Knight and Riddler released a recording of Batman and Gordon saying "Joker can wait" knowing they could have stopped him sooner. He plays the city's citizens against the rich and in power. Also Nolan never used a villain to mentally challenge Batman and Riddler would have been perfect.

I also think Bruce in TDKR was bad. I didn't mind Batman retiring but didn't like Bruce retiring. I understand Batman is not needed but Bruce Wayne could be needed. And then in the middle of the film Bane sticks him in a cave. I get the symbolism but that doesn't mean like it.

Im not a Riddler fan so i wouldn't care for that. Plus, Bane was a very different villain than Joker and the others. Riddler has some differences to Joker but a ton of similarities. Riddler was the safe and predictable choice. Everybody instantly went to "Riddler" for the 3rd film, as soon as TDK finished. Why? Because he's the next most popular villain. Im glad they did something unexpected, yet it also fed into the first film. If you're going to make a trilogy, it should bookend in some way.

I do kinda like the whole camera idea. Riddler would have worked in a story somewhere, but IMO only between the events of TDK and TDKR. I just dont think a whole film with Riddler would have interested me unless they got the right actor, and decided to make some changes to Nygma so that he never comes off nerdy. I just hate that crap. That's why DiCaprio would have killed it as a more suave, obsessive character instead of the version we see on "Gotham" which makes me not want to see the character ever again.

There's a reason why Riddler NEVER follows the Joker in live-action. It feels like a copy-cat. There's always a gap. Burton never did Riddler, the next director did. And for good reason. Can you imagine Robin Williams back in the day? That would have been Joker 2.0.

The problem with Riddler for the third movie is it makes it just about the mind, but it really needed to be a mind/body/spirit fight.

This. All the way.

He's not saying he literally did the exact same acts, he's talking his overall plan. The only difference, is Talia was motivated by revenge, and Bane was just a lackey.

Well, Bane is not just a lackey, so no.

 

[shauner111]

Like Batlobster said, it leaves room for the next universe to use Riddler, Penguin. Just like it helps them use Freeze, Black Mask, Croc from a clean slate (pun intended). Whether that means from the show "Gotham" or in a movie.

Riddler should be a side villain anyway. If he was a main villain, i think it serves him better to act as behind-the-scenes as possible. Not even that much screentime, while he pulls the strings. A whole film surrounding him would feel boring as hell. But maybe that's just me, cuz i never liked him. Even in the comics he's pretty boring. I can't even think of any comic books that i loved where he was an important character.

 

[BH/HHH]

Not only that the idea of Pa Kent dying the way he did, just didn't make any sense so it became laughable. What son would just refuse to save his father just because his dad goes "Nope"? Any son would saved him anyway. And the worst part was that Clark could have easily got the dog himself and quickly vanished into the field where nobody would see. Even if he didn't know the full extent of his powers at the time, he could have ran normally since his leg wouldn't be caught in the car door like a doofus.

Whilst I will admit the execution isn't great in that scene there is a hell of a lot more to it than that. But this isn't the place to discuss Man of Steel.

Sony and Fox (especially Sony) will have nothing by the time the next decade begins. Spidey will always be an option but they're going to kill it and need a long break. Marvel needs to survive as a studio, so they'll keep em' coming but the numbers will go down, people will be exhausted. Ideas? I dont know about you but i dont see Thor movies, Cap movies, being made once that last movie hits with Thanos. A lot of the smaller characters will have their films going until the early part of the 2020's, but even that won't last too long. There's only so much you can do once these actors bail out. An Avengers 4 will probably happen but with a younger group, and so i dont think that's going to be the hit they think it's going to be.

The genre won't crash and die for several years. But it will be on life-support for a while. Audience exhaustion coupled with writers block. I'll bet anything on it in 10 years time. Marvel & DC are blowing their load so to speak all at once, in the span of 6 years. Without thinking of the future.

The Batfleck movies may make crazy dough. Or it won't be well received. Chances are it will be praised by all. Loved. But it will have an ending once Affleck bails. And so they have the option to do prequels, reboot once again (may as well call them prequels no?), or go back to a past Bat-actor. What's the best for business? I think prequels could work but i think that strangles the actor in the role with constant comparisons to the older Affleck. I personally don't like the idea anymore. The reboot, in a new stand-alone universe, with a younger Batman is going to happen again eventually. Probably in a horror looking Gotham. But it's the worst idea ever to do this directly after Affleck. You'll have some fans rolling their eyes "jesus christ, they're announcing ANOTHER REBOOT? How many reboots is this now? Three?". Push that back. Let WB indulge in an older Bruce from the past like Keaton or Bale for a Batman Beyond. Something along those lines. Then after a while of not getting Bruce as Batman in the movie world, people will be begging for a younger Bruce who is BATMAN.

Another thing, is we're all assuming every Justice League and solo movie from DC will be a hit. A lot of these solo movies may straight up bomb. Justice League, as a sequel, has potential to do great or just "decent" numbers. If they take it into a third film, it could bomb if they don't have key players like Batman or Superman involved much.

Can I borrow your crystal ball cause you seem to know a lot what's gonna happen in the future

 

[shauner111]

It's speculating, but i feel strongly about it. I just know it's gonna go down like that. I could be wrong but i dont think i am. This kind of thing happens all the time in different mediums. It'll be no different with this genre. You live in a golden age for wrestling, for records, for films, genre films..it's all the same. They blow their load with every idea imaginable until it becomes watered down and they dont have much left anymore. It can't be wiped out completely but the stuff they throw out to the world will be minimal and nowhere near the quality. That's when we will see them relying on their strongest characters like Batman to pick up the pieces. That's where a strong reboot or a blast from the past comes into play like Bale or Keaton.

Ill use the example of pro wrestling. Hopefully some here are fans so they'll know what im talking about. Wrestling obviously is a different kind of business, so it forces ahead full steam, no stopping it. Because the WWE is a multi-billion dollar business that has shareholders etc. A public company for the last 15 years. But what happened in the late 90s, early 2000's? This is the comparison. The Attitude Era happened, and they went NUTS with every story idea, every possible character, bending the rules, making new ones. Especially between late 97 and 2001. Then what happened? Creative bankruptcy is what i call the World Wrestling Federation, just before they went completely Entertainment with how they emphasized the company. It's been a downhill thing ever since when it comes to the creative. The superhero genre will become creatively bankrupt in about 10 years from now, give or take. It's just how things play out. Too much of anything is never good.

Batman will be the number 1 character who keeps going no matter what. And so it's all about what they do from there. Bringing Bale back, and Nolan could work.

 

[The Shape]

I love the "Bane is just a lackey" criticism. The only command that we see Bane receive from Talia is "Don't kill him", which he immediately disobeys.

Despite Talia being the true heir of Ra's, all signs point to Bane and Talia working closely together to execute their plans, with one in the forefront and one working undercover from the shadows. Plus, Bane was as devoted to their mission as Talia was, if not more so, and I'm sure he made his own decisions and took certain things into his own hands.

Would Talia probably have the final say or ability to overrule Bane? As the head of the LOS, sure. But saying Bane is just a lackey makes it sound like he was nothing more than "Henchman #1" and that'd he'd have to step away every few minutes to make secret cell phone calls to Talia to constantly seek approval for everything he did.

 

[Travesty]

Eh, Bane is just a lackey.

 

[shauner111]

I love the "Bane is just a lackey" criticism. The only command that we see Bane receive from Talia is "Don't kill him", which he immediately disobeys.

Despite Talia being the true heir of Ra's, all signs point to Bane and Talia working closely together to execute their plans, with one in the forefront and one working undercover from the shadows. Plus, Bane was as devoted to their mission as Talia was, if not more so, and I'm sure he made his own decisions and took certain things into his own hands.

Would Talia probably have the final say or ability to overrule Bane? As the head of the LOS, sure. But saying Bane is just a lackey makes it sound like he was nothing more than "Henchman #1" and that'd he'd have to step away every few minutes to make secret cell phone calls to Talia to constantly seek approval for everything he did.

Of course. It's actually pretty insulting to the movie and character. We see him making his own decisions. This isn't Batman and Robin, where Bane was nothing.

 

[shauner111]

Eh, Bane is just a lackey.

 

[The Shape]

Eh, Bane is just a lackey.

Totally.

 

[BH/HHH]

It's speculating, but i feel strongly about it. I just know it's gonna go down like that. I could be wrong but i dont think i am. This kind of thing happens all the time in different mediums. It'll be no different with this genre. You live in a golden age for wrestling, for records, for films, genre films..it's all the same. They blow their load with every idea imaginable until it becomes watered down and they dont have much left anymore. It can't be wiped out completely but the stuff they throw out to the world will be minimal and nowhere near the quality. That's when we will see them relying on their strongest characters like Batman to pick up the pieces. That's where a strong reboot or a blast from the past comes into play like Bale or Keaton.

Ill use the example of pro wrestling. Hopefully some here are fans so they'll know what im talking about. Wrestling obviously is a different kind of business, so it forces ahead full steam, no stopping it. Because the WWE is a multi-billion dollar business that has shareholders etc. A public company for the last 15 years. But what happened in the late 90s, early 2000's? This is the comparison. The Attitude Era happened, and they went NUTS with every story idea, every possible character, bending the rules, making new ones. Especially between late 97 and 2001. Then what happened? Creative bankruptcy is what i call the World Wrestling Federation, just before they went completely Entertainment with how they emphasized the company. It's been a downhill thing ever since when it comes to the creative. The superhero genre will become creatively bankrupt in about 10 years from now, give or take. It's just how things play out. Too much of anything is never good.

Batman will be the number 1 character who keeps going no matter what. And so it's all about what they do from there. Bringing Bale back, and Nolan could work.

Wrestling is not a fair comparison. Have people gotten bored of action films? Horror films? Comedies etc? I'd say no but they are constantly changing with Superhero/CBMs can do.

Batman may very well be but if they keep oversaturing him as they have been it could bite them in the arse eventually. Especially where animation is concerned.

 

[shauner111]

Over-saturating? If they keep pumping out Batman movies every couple of years then you could be right. But 4 years between Rises and the new one, then a possible break after Affleck is done...that helps.

But animation? That has nothing to do with live-action or what the general audience are seeing. They're hitting up the video gamers with new Bat games but they have one more coming out soon. That, or cartoons, animated films, don't do anything to affect the standard movie going audience. They dont watch animated superhero movies, nor do they read comics. The new Gotham show luckily doesn't feature the Batman.

And who knows, Batman could be the new James Bond. Maybe the movie going audience don't mind seeing a new Batman on film every few years, consistently.

 

[BatLobster]

Don't feed the Travesty...

 

[shauner111]

I have a crazy hard time thinking of an antagonist if Bale/Nolan were to return. One that isn't Joker. From past comments, i dont think Nolan cares for Riddler or Penguin. So scratch them out. Probably for the best. You dont want a director using a character he/she doesn't care about because then you get Venom in Spider-Man 3!

Too bad Jonathan Nolan or David Goyer couldn't convince Chris that Oswald Cobblepot, as a British gangster, could be a huge asset to a film. Like they did with the likes of Ras Al Ghul, Bane and Catwoman. A Brit handling a British villain.

So who would work after all these years? Hugo Strange? Black Mask? Mr. Freeze? I guess those three are very possible. Hush?

 

[BH/HHH]

Over-saturating? If they keep pumping out Batman movies every couple of years then you could be right. But 4 years between Rises and the new one, then a possible break after Affleck is done...that helps.

But animation? That has nothing to do with live-action or what the general audience are seeing. They're hitting up the video gamers with new Bat games but they have one more coming out soon. That, or cartoons, animated films, don't do anything to affect the standard movie going audience. They dont watch animated superhero movies, nor do they read comics. The new Gotham show luckily doesn't feature the Batman.

And who knows, Batman could be the new James Bond. Maybe the movie going audience don't mind seeing a new Batman on film every few years, consistently.

Countless animated films, more and more comics, etc I just worry they are overusing the character in most medias. Sometimes you just have to dial it back.

I have a crazy hard time thinking of an antagonist if Bale/Nolan were to return. One that isn't Joker. From past comments, i dont think Nolan cares for Riddler or Penguin. So scratch them out. Probably for the best. You dont want a director using a character he/she doesn't care about because then you get Venom in Spider-Man 3!

Too bad Jonathan Nolan or David Goyer couldn't convince Chris that Oswald Cobblepot, as a British gangster, could be a huge asset to a film. Like they did with the likes of Ras Al Ghul, Bane and Catwoman. A Brit handling a British villain.

So who would work after all these years? Hugo Strange? Black Mask? Mr. Freeze? I guess those three are very possible. Hush?

I really want to see Nolan's take on the Riddler but I don't think he can be the main villain he needs to line up in the same film as someone else. Black Mask is a good shout.

 

[Travesty]

Don't feed the Travesty...

 

[BatLobster]

I'd still love to see Hugo Strange used in any Batman movie. To me he's malleable enough where you could almost do whatever you want with him. He's just your generic mad scientist archetype at the core, but the novelty of him being the very first Batman villain is just cool and gives him a certain aura of mystique.

 

[JackWhite]

Whether or not Joker came back, Batman needed a physical main threat in the third film. Riddler would have been playing more mind games with Batman, ala the Joker. Sure, Nolan could have cooked up a bad ass version of the Riddler, but coming off of the heels of TDK with the Joker we needed something completely different.

 

[shauner111]

I really want to see Nolan's take on the Riddler but I don't think he can be the main villain he needs to line up in the same film as someone else. Black Mask is a good shout.

If he's a side character it could work since it's not following Joker, or a straight-up crime film. But i think that ship has sailed with the Nolanverse. Chris thinks of him as somewhat of a poor man's Joker.

But Riddler & Penguin works.

Another combo: Hugo Strange and Black Mask.

Another: Freeze who once did business with Penguin or Black Mask.

Freeze can undergo some changes with how he gets the suit. But keep the bulk of the Heart of Ice story. I can see a slightly more futuristic Nolan movie. At the core of it you need a reason for Bruce to come back to Gotham. I'll say it until Batman Beyond happens, Freeze is the perfect villain for that movie. If it's Bruce coming back to the cowl though, what's the reason behind it all? And how does it relate to Freeze.

Resurgence of the mob and Blake retiring or dying after several years as the Batman/Nightwing (they don't have to specify) would work. Bruce either..

A) Needs to return or...
B) Needs to train a newcomer because Blake is unable to do so.

Roman Sionis doesn't work. After all these movies, mob meetings, origin storytelling, flashbacks to Bruce's childhood....and where was the Sionis family? Nowhere. It feels forced. "Hey Bruce, remember me!? We grew up together!" Screw that kind of writing.

Penguin is where it's at. Im just sad Bob Hoskins and Philip Seymour Hoffman are gone. Mike Myers? Jonah Hill?

Cobblepot has a connection to Freeze. I think that works quite well.

 

[JackWhite]

What about Toby Jones?

 

[shauner111]

Im getting a bit bored by him lately. I dont want Penguin that small.

 

[shauner111]

I want something outside the box like Myers or Jonah. Myers is a brilliant choice, whoever kept trying to convince us about it last week.

 

[Victarion]

I have a crazy hard time thinking of an antagonist if Bale/Nolan were to return. One that isn't Joker. From past comments, i dont think Nolan cares for Riddler or Penguin. So scratch them out. Probably for the best. You dont want a director using a character he/she doesn't care about because then you get Venom in Spider-Man 3!

Too bad Jonathan Nolan or David Goyer couldn't convince Chris that Oswald Cobblepot, as a British gangster, could be a huge asset to a film. Like they did with the likes of Ras Al Ghul, Bane and Catwoman. A Brit handling a British villain.

So who would work after all these years? Hugo Strange? Black Mask? Mr. Freeze? I guess those three are very possible. Hush?

I would'd loved for the new mobsters in TDK to have been Penguin, Black Mask and whatever other freak mobsters are in the comics. Maybe when Nolan reaches his Lucas stage.

 

[BH/HHH]

I want something outside the box like Myers or Jonah. Myers is a brilliant choice, whoever kept trying to convince us about it last week.

Jonah Hill? Man would that be out of the box casting. Such an interesting choice I like it.