The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - Part 153

[Malicked]

Well people who've worked with Nolan have said that he doesn't like multiple takes. He likes to get through his shots pretty quickly.

 

[JackWhite]

But that's just, well, bad on Nolan's part. I can see one guy falling down and it not getting caught in post, but anymore than that is unacceptable. Especially for someone of Nolan's caliber, when it comes to being a perfectionist.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

That's true, Malicked. And it's gotten far more prevalent too. Matthew M....(dunno how to spell) was shocked that Nolan shot almost every scene with only two to three takes in Interstellar. He compared it to shooting an indie film or TV show rather than a Hollywood blockbuster.

While that has its benefits, no doubt, as far as budget and scheduling goes (Nolan always finishes on time and in budget), but TDKR proves that it has its drawbacks too.

when it comes to being a perfectionist.

I don't think Nolan is close to being a perfectionist. And TDKR proves that. Can you imagine someone like David Fincher, who IS a perfectionist, letting shots like goons falling down, Talia's death, and Oldman losing his accent so blatantly go? No chance.

Fincher is like the diametric opposite of Nolan in this way. Fincher always baloons his budget, because he shoots like 100 takes for every scene. But on the other hand, his films are put together like clockwork. Never is anything out of balance. ALl the performances are PITCH PERFECT.

 

[georgec]

I like to think Blake did this to the guy:

 

[JackWhite]

I guess I just imagined Nolan to be on that level of being uber meticulous, at least before TDKR.

Talia's death though, I would so love to see if there was another take.

 

[Snow Queen]

I can see some stuntmen falling getting past them, but the Talia death genuinely just baffles me.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

I guess I just imagined Nolan to be on that level of being uber meticulous

Nah, man. Nolan has always been freeflowing in terms of shooting. It's his scripts that are meticulous. At least his non-Batman ones.

 

[Malicked]

But that's just, well, bad on Nolan's part. I can see one guy falling down and it not getting caught in post, but anymore than that is unacceptable. Especially for someone of Nolan's caliber, when it comes to being a perfectionist.

If I'm honest, I had never noticed that goon fall backwards until I saw the GIF thread lol! But yeah, that scene could've been cleaned up easily.

I don't think Nolan is close to being a perfectionist. And TDKR proves that. Can you imagine someone like David Fincher, who IS a perfectionist, letting shots like goons falling down, Talia's death, and Oldman losing his accent so blatantly go? No chance.

Fincher is like the diametric opposite of Nolan in this way. Fincher always baloons his budget, because he shoots like 100 takes for every scene. But on the other hand, his films are put together like clockwork. Never is anything out of balance. ALl the performances are PITCH PERFECT.

I can't remember who he was talking to but Nolan actually insisted himself that he's not a perfectionist after an interviewer suggested he was. What Nolan does do is put most of his creative effort into the bigger picture ie the script and the overall scale of shooting (the IMAX cameras, getting thousands of extras together, filming complex action scenes like the prologues).

 

[BatLobster]

Yup, Nolan being a perfectionist has always been a misconception. He likes to work fast. There's a reason his movie often finish early and under budget. But ironically I think his style gives his movies an organic, human touch (I say ironic because he's always accused of being cold). Fincher, on the other hand is the very definition of cold (I love Fincher's movies too though). I'm pretty sure Nolan actually likes the little imperfections.

I think the reason Nolan is able to work like this and isn't some Ed Wood hack (although there are some haters who would claim he is), is because he really does have a very clear vision of what he wants on every level, he's able to assemble amazing casts that are eager to do good work for him, and they come to set ready to crush it. At least half of directing is casting, and Nolan has one of the best eyes for it out there.

The thing is, every director's style has some drawbacks. Even Fincher, sometimes his movies feel too perfect for me, and it's almost kind of sterile in its perfection. There's a certain blood splattery shot in Gone Girl (don't want to spoil it) that they shot 36 times. 35 times the set had to be completely changed/cleaned. That is insane, and arguably overindulgent.

The wonkiness in some of the TDKR fight scenes, I think, are just a combination of hand to hand combat scenes not being Nolan's strong suit and him probably being okay with it in the edit, assuming most people won't notice (and to an extent he's right- obviously he wasn't concerned with fanboys making gifs, lol). In general, I feel like TDKR must have been a pretty grueling shoot, cause they shot it in about the same time span as BB and TDK but it's the longest movie and has the biggest action beats. Contrary to people who think Nolan just phoned it in, I think he simply applied his same methodology that's been so successful for him in the past and because of the sheer size of the project and length of the movie, more of the cracks showed.

I think of it like music. Some bands play to a click track, and have everything cut up perfectly in Pro Tools to eliminate any mistakes, all the vocals get autotuned, etc. And then other bands do live takes, leave the little mistakes in, keep it feeling raw, etc. Nolan's "band" is definitely more the latter, and I think on set a lot of the time it's more like improv jazz. It takes very sharp instincts to work that way and turn out masterful work most of the time, and that's why a lot of his "editing" is done on the script level.

 

[georgec]

Every now and then I like to watch this retrospective on TDKT. It's a great summation of the trilogy.

[YT]1s4aAp8OxGg[/YT]

 

[shauner111]

But that's just, well, bad on Nolan's part. I can see one guy falling down and it not getting caught in post, but anymore than that is unacceptable. Especially for someone of Nolan's caliber, when it comes to being a perfectionist.

Nolans not really a perfectionist and admits that he feels embarassed when he watches a perfectionist like Kubrick. Fincher is a perfectionist as well. Nolan not so much. He puts a lot of detail into his work but he's not hardcore about every little thing. He says he edits quick to keep a raw feel. He shoots scenes quickly and doesn't spend too much time in the editing room. I think when you're doing an action movie, it's better to be raw even if some mistakes leak through. I mean, i didnt see any of these errors from Rises until i went online and saw hardcore Nolan or Batman fans creating gifs. I saw the movie like 5 times and didn't see anything. I only see it now because i look for it (thanks internet!).

It's probably a mistake (the falling down) but i just choose to believe that Blake swiped his feet or he was scared stiff of Batman haha.

To answer another one of your posts, yes there were a few takes for Talia's death. It's possible that the other takes ruined the flow or something went wrong technically even if they were better so he quickly settled on the one we have now.

I think of it like music. Some bands play to a click track, and have everything cut up perfectly in Pro Tools to eliminate any mistakes, all the vocals get autotuned, etc. And then other bands do live takes, leave the little mistakes in, keep it feeling raw, etc. Nolan's "band" is definitely more the latter, and I think on set a lot of the time it's more like improv jazz. It takes very sharp instincts to work that way and turn out masterful work most of the time, and that's why a lot of his "editing" is done on the script level.

Awesome comparison.

 

[JackWhite]

Yeah, very good comparison, Batlobster.

Since we have been having some good banter in this thread, I thought we could continue. So, that 8 year gap was a total cop-out!














lol, I kid. But really. I was having lunch with some buddies of mine a few weeks ago; who are big film geeks and one of them asked which film is darker - The Dark Knight or The Dark Knight Rises?

My answer was simply - TDK is darker; but TDKR is more bleak.

What say you, gentlemen?

 

[BatLobster]

I think that's honestly the best way to put it JackWhite. The stakes are higher in TDKR and everything is at the brink, but it's ultimately a story about the triumph of the human spirit and coming out of the darkness renewed and alive. It's very bleak, but there's a light at the end of the tunnel and as a result it's more cathartic victory in the end.

TDK is more a straight up tragedy. Heroes turn evil, a love interest is killed, characters have to make moral compromises. A lot of TDKR's bleakness is a direct result of TDK's dark cloud hanging over it.

In terms of the threat to Gotham, TDKR is probably darker. In terms of the character arcs (and Bruce's arc gets more emphasis in TDKR), TDK is darker.

 

[JackWhite]

Totally agree on the stakes being darker in TDKR. Seeing Bane have the special ops forces hung from the bridges was pretty messed up, and very boundaries pushing for the genre on Nolan's part.

 

[Malicked]

Totally agree on the stakes being darker in TDKR. Seeing Bane have the special ops forces hung from the bridges was pretty messed up, and very boundaries pushing for the genre on Nolan's part.

I still get chills whenever I watch that scene. Bane crushing that guy with his knee and saying 'Hang them for the world to see' and Bruce in the pit reacting in horror.

Living under a warlord for 6 months and then being threatened by nuclear annihalation is pretty self explanatory. But what makes TDKR 'dark for me' is mainly because of Bruce Wayne's plight. Living in a depressed state for 3 years (not the full 8 years that some people mistakenly think however) and thinking he could just get back into the saddle, only to be crushed by Bane and stuck in a pit for 6 months. But TDK still edges it in darkness. As Batlobsterrises, heroes are brought down by the utterly nihilistic Joker. Questions are asked about how low you're willing to push your morals for the sake of the 'greater good'. Not even Gordon comes out in a particularly good light. And yeah, Dent's story was very tragic.

 

[The Joker]

The stakes never felt higher in TDKR for me, simply because the movie jumped ahead for most of the siege. We never really saw how it affected the city, other than deserted streets, and a few people hiding in their houses. Even the revelation of the big Dent cover up never had any noticeable consequences other than Blake giving Gordon a flowery speech about morality.

In TDK, when Joker popped up and caused trouble, the tension always rose, and the **** always hit the fan. For example the build up to Joker crashing Bruce's penthouse party where we see Loeb get poisoned, the judge's car get blown up, Bruce choke holding Dent, that was proper edge of the seat stuff. You could almost see Nolan cranking up the tension meter when he was putting those scenes together with Zimmer doing that awesome score for it. Or when the Joker threatened to blow up a hospital if Reese wasn't killed, and we see the city go nuts, and several citizen attempted assassinations made on his life (even one by one of Gordon's cops). Even at something smaller scale like at Dent's press conference when we see all the citizens angry and scared because of Joker's reign of terror and demanding Batman be taken in (including seeing Bruce in the midst of it all seeing Gotham turn on him). It was more of a citizen reaction than we got in TDKR. I don't even have to go into detail about the whole segment of Joker allowing himself to be caught and the consequences that came with that. It all felt more raw, high stakes, and real than any of Bane's city siege to me.

Joker had the city proper scared, panicked, and we literally saw him turn it to chaos. Bane's big siege felt much more quiet and tame by comparison. Even on Batman lying with an injured back in a pit, that didn't compare to the despair and guilt we saw in TDK when he was hitting brick walls trying to nail Joker but nobody would spill about where he was because they feared him more than Batman. Or when he packs up his Batman stuff and prepares to turn himself in. Or when he's mourning Rachel's death and blaming himself for bringing madness and death onto the city. Or even the ending when he and Gordon are standing over Dent's dead body looking at what Joker turned him into and the mess they're left with. All felt more emotionally raw and bigger for me.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Gothamites got a good deal in Rises actually. In Begins they would've lost their minds and ate their children, in Knight they wouldn't be able to sleep at nights knowing they blew up other human beings, in Rises they wouldn't even feel it, the atomic fire roasting them in milliseconds.

 

[titansupes]

In that GIF of Batman fighting Bane's men and the guy falling down (which is still easily one of my favourite fights in the trilogy... Bats destroys those guys, Blake's in awe, the 'missed a spot' kick, the uniqueness of KFM etc) I always assumed they left out a gunshot sound effect - Batman kicks the goons hand, and the hand consequently swings around and the gun goes off, hitting that guy. I feel like that's what happened.

 

[kvz5]

You gotta love how the Oscars can't bring these men together but Affleck, Bale, AND Keaton are all at the MGM Grand for the Pacquiao/Mayweather fight.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

They should be watching the Avengers, not boxing.

 

[Brother Jack]

In terms of the threat to Gotham, TDKR is probably darker. In terms of the character arcs (and Bruce's arc gets more emphasis in TDKR), TDK is darker.

Batman essentially loses in Knight. He's only able to preserve the city by inverting his own persona after a whole movie of him failing at nearly every turn. He doesn't stop the Joker in time, doesn't save Rachel or Harvey, and all it happens because of him. It's incredibly dark and very brave, especially for the ways that it subverts superhero movie tropes. But then in Rises you get Bruce having lost everything, sinking into (literally) a deep pit of despair while hundreds if not thousands die in Gotham. To examine the toll that being a crimefighter has on a human, seeing Bruce hobbling on a cane and getting destroyed by Bane, is also very brave and unique. I've seen inklings of similar ideas in movies since, namely Iron Man 3, but never better handled.

So it's a tossup for which is darker. I'd probably go with Knight because it is a Shakespearean tragedy while Rises is ultimately triumphant. Rises has always felt literary to me, being an epic with influence from comics (obviously) to Dickens to even the Bible. It's almost a parable, especially in its second half.

 

[titansupes]

The ending of TDK always felt so hopeful to me, though. It's hard to explain. It's a major loss, and he sacrifices himself to turn it into a triumph and adds a whole new layer to Batman. "I'm whatever Gotham needs me to be".

Come on. That's brilliant.

 

[Brother Jack]

The ending of TDK always felt so hopeful to me, though. It's hard to explain. It's a major loss, and he sacrifices himself to turn it into a triumph and adds a whole new layer to Batman. "I'm whatever Gotham needs me to be".

Come on. That's brilliant.

It's inspirational in the sense of what he's willing to do for the city, yeah. Gordon's last speech is an encapsulation of what Batman is if there ever was one. But I wouldn't call it victorious. It's more of a grand owning of the consequence for all the mayhem he had inadvertently caused.

This is kind of a tangent, but what's interesting about that ending looking back now is that Batman as a symbol is never actually destroyed, despite the symbolism of Gordon smashing the signal. It's a reversal of the symbol, inverting it in a way that recalls the last image of the Joker hanging upside down. Batman keeps on existing even when Bruce isn't active anymore. At the beginning of Rises he exists purely as a legend, a myth that the city continually tells itself. Nolan shows that subtly with the kid Blake talks to at the orphanage who's habitually drawing bat symbols. That kid would have been in diapers when Batman was in his prime yet he knows who he is and knows he's good.

 

[Bruce Malone]

You gotta love how the Oscars can't bring these men together but Affleck, Bale, AND Keaton are all at the MGM Grand for the Pacquiao/Mayweather fight.

It was crazy when I saw that.

I'd like to think they got a pic together but they might have thought it was almost too expected of them to do that?

 

[Tacit Ronin]

In that GIF of Batman fighting Bane's men and the guy falling down (which is still easily one of my favourite fights in the trilogy... Bats destroys those guys, Blake's in awe, the 'missed a spot' kick, the uniqueness of KFM etc) I always assumed they left out a gunshot sound effect - Batman kicks the goons hand, and the hand consequently swings around and the gun goes off, hitting that guy. I feel like that's what happened.

For Batman kicking goon ass in the Nolan trilogy, nothing tops the scene where he takes out Scarecrows men in Arkham. What a badass scene. Formally, the way it was shot, is a happy medium between the incomprehensible noise and flashes of images of the docks scene, and the pulled back, steady shots that would fill TDK and TDKR.