The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - Part 154

[Filmfreak]

Oh, the myth that Snyder's movies are nothing but action and have no substance. Wonder where that came from. To me MOS has really no less depth than any other Superhero movie besides the Nolan ones. To be honest, i found it even more dramatic and deep than pretty much anything else that came out in the last 10 years or so, aside from the Batman stuff.

The X-Men movies have far more depth and character drama, especially the latest ones. Maybe Man of Steel wins over some of the MCU movies in that aspect but to me it really felt flat in that area.

 

[BatLobster]

Not to turn this into "let's all bash Snyder" thing, because I honestly do think he's a cool guy with great aspirations as a filmmaker, but I'll just say that I don't think there's any question that he tries to have depth in his films. I'm thinking of Watchmen, Sucker Punch and Man of Steel specifically.

A big difference between people who love Snyder's films and the people that don't is that some believe his films earn the depth they're reaching for, while others feel like it doesn't always translate in the finished product. I have no doubt that Snyder has some great thoughts about his own films and what he's trying to say with them, but I think the issue of how well or not those ideas are communicated is where people might tend to differ. It also seem to me that a lot of Snyder's biggest supporters tend to share his taste and sensibilities (re: comic book visual purists).

The Wachowskis are a comparable example to me. Personally, I think the siblings are kind of mad geniuses and I personally think they have some first rate ideas in their work, but I also know that for a LOT of people it just doesn't work outside the first Matrix (and now their new Netflix show Sense8). So I tend to lump Snyder more into a similar category as the W's. Visually flamboyant, very influenced by comic books and geek culture, striving for pop art, but a tendency to be divisive with the audience.

 

[Mandarin]

The X-Men movies have far more depth and character drama, especially the latest ones. Maybe Man of Steel wins over some of the MCU movies in that aspect but to me it really felt flat in that area.

Well, not to me. The father/mother moments in MOS felt all much deeper than anything i've seen in any X-Men movie. And i'm not even particularly biased towards either. X-Men just doesn't do much for me on an emotional level.

A big difference between people who love Snyder's films and the people that don't is that some believe his films earn the depth they're reaching for, while others feel like it doesn't always translate in the finished product. I have no doubt that Snyder has some great thoughts about his own films and what he's trying to say with them, but I think the issue of how well or not those ideas are communicated is where people might tend to differ. It also seem to me that a lot of Snyder's biggest supporters tend to share his taste and sensibilities (re: comic book visual purists).

I never had any problem understanding and feeling the ideas he is trying to communicate. Not to say that his movies are particularly deep, because they aren't. I just don't understand why is he known for that, while we pretend pretty much every other super hero movie doesn't have the exact same "problem", despite actually having. What's so deep and emotional about Iron Man, Captain America, The Avengers, Guardians of the Galaxy, Thor, etc? I really see nothing there. If MOS is nothing but a shallow movie, then pretty much all the other super hero movies deserve to be called the same.

I can get a lot out of the scenes between Clark and his mother and father. That last scene, for example, was beautiful and deep enough for me to understand and feel what those characters are going through. No need to pretend MOS is a 2 hours and a half Boom Fest, because it isn't.

 

[BatLobster]

The point I'm trying to make is that I think some people feel his movies "try" to be weighty and deep, but end up feeling kind of shlocky and don't live up to their own ideas, so they get judged on that basis. Even Nolan has gotten some flak for similar reasons.

Marvel movies on the other hand don't typically try to be that, they typically aim to be light entertainment and they're judged accordingly.

Mind you, I probably like Watchmen more than most of Marvel's movies, so I'm not exactly a Snyder hater. And I tend to prefer a movie that doesn't fully realize its own ambitious aims to one that is completely devoid of ambition. But I do think I understand where his critics are coming from. I also don't think Man of Steel is a shallow movie, though I do think it's uneven and frankly I just don't feel any emotion when watching it (which is subjective). The last scene with Ma Kent is definitely a highlight though.

 

[Filmfreak]

Snyder's movies always leave me a sour taste. Three times I was pumped up for a movie of his and all three times I found them underwhelming for different reasons. There's no question that he tries to do more than just spectacle where he's really good at and there's no question that for some people he succeeds. But not for me. I still like some of his movies quite a bit but he just fails to hit me on an emotional level.

Wachowskis are a kind of a different story imao. On one hand they've released far worse pieces of garbage than Snyder's ever directed but on the other hand they have at least one masterpiece with the first Matrix movie (two if we count them adapting the screenplay for V for Vendetta) while Snyder hasn't. Sense8 was not at all my cup of tea and neither has been any of their latest attempts with the exception of Cloud Atlas which I haven't seen yet. Another difference is that Snyder always delivers in action and spectacle which is not the case for the Wachowskis.

 

[Mandarin]

The point I'm trying to make is that I think some people feel his movies "try" to be weighty and deep, but end up feeling kind of shlocky and don't live up to their own ideas, so they get judged on that basis. Even Nolan has gotten some flak for similar reasons.

Marvel movies on the other hand don't typically try to be that, they typically aim to be light entertainment and they're judged accordingly.

Mind you, I probably like Watchmen more than most of Marvel's movies, so I'm not exactly a Snyder hater. And I tend to prefer a movie that doesn't fully realize its own ambitious aims to one that is completely devoid of ambition. But I do think I understand where his critics are coming from. I also don't think Man of Steel is a shallow movie, though I do think it's uneven and frankly I just don't feel any emotion when watching it (which is subjective). The last scene with Ma Kent is definitely a highlight though.

I can't agree with that. I think your description of what Zack Snyder's movies are is actually a perfect depiction of what Marvel movies offer. In pretty much all of them they try to deliver emotional moments, but i just think they fail and feel pretty forced and unnecessary. I feel that at least in MOS the "deep" moments make sense and are essential to the story. They aren't there just to randomly make you feel something. Age of Ultron had a lot of moments that you can tell that they are just for the sake of being there.

Now, whether emotional moments work or not, that's pretty subjective. I find the TDKT trilogy to be very emotional, but i know tons of people who feel absolutely nothing watching it. I found most Marvel movies pretty dull and shallow. But hey, a lot of people go crazy over it.

 

[The Joker]

The only Snyder movie I've enjoyed in any way was Watchmen.

 

[Kane52630]

Not a fan of Dawn of the Dead?

 

[BatLobster]

I can't agree with that. I think your description of what Zack Snyder's movies are is actually a perfect depiction of what Marvel movies offer. In pretty much all of them they try to deliver emotional moments, but i just think they fail and feel pretty forced and unnecessary. I feel that at least in MOS the "deep" moments make sense and are essential to the story. They aren't there just to randomly make you feel something. Age of Ultron had a lot of moments that you can tell that they are just for the sake of being there.

Now, whether emotional moments work or not, that's pretty subjective. I find the TDKT trilogy to be very emotional, but i know tons of people who feel absolutely nothing watching it. I found most Marvel movies pretty dull and shallow. But hey, a lot of people go crazy over it.

Hey, I respect your opinion (and agree with you about TDKT Trilogy). Indeed it is subjective.

My take on a lot of the Marvel movies is I think often the emotional content isn't bad at all, but then they cram too many winks and jokes in which can sometimes disrupt the flow of the movie and pull me out of it. Some movies are able to pull the balance off better than others of course. This is more of a post-Avengers issue IMO.

 

[shauner111]

But compared to most (in my opinion, ALL) Marvel movies, the TDK trilogy felt more serious and emotional. It felt like you were watching a well-acted drama at times (Bruce and Alfred scenes) or a crime film, instead of a superhero film (felt this in TDK many times).

When i watch the trilogy and then any other comic book movie, it feels like a different style all together. TDK Trilogy has more in common with blockbusters like Terminator 2, but for me the difference between watching a Nolan Batman movie and any other superhero movie is like comparing Terminator 2 or Jurassic Park with...Scarface. Scarface wasn't getting all the oscars either, but for some reason you get that feeling like you're watching a crime film, something more legit instead of a wink wink popcorn feast for all ages. Or just "a film" in general, and not just a "superhero flick". I know that sounds snobby, and some won't agree with my take on that, but it's how i feel. The trilogy has its superhero moments in all three movies. The ending of Begins comes to mind. The bomb chasing in Act 3 of Rises, Batman taking down the swat team in Act 3 of Knight. But for the most part, all three movies feel disconnected from the usual comic book stuff that we see from DC or Marvel. Even the Bane prologue feels like a Bond intro or the Joker prologue feels more like Heat than something we could get out of Man Of Steel, Avengers etc.

We may get that same feeling and style out of the next Batman movie if it's directed by Affleck. There's a certain gravitas to the moments between characters. When they walk down the street, it feels like im watching a gangster movie or a civil war movie or a....

You get the point.

That doesn't mean i don't enjoy other comic book movies for what they are, because i do. To a certain extent. Im only talking about style.

 

[Brother Jack]

Not a fan of Dawn of the Dead?

I think that might still be is best movie. Even though I hate fast zombies.

300 is admirable as a purely literal translation of a book to film. It's basically just the comic in every way, for better or worse.

 

[BatLobster]

Yeah, I think 300 is pretty much precisely the movie it needed to be. Snyder was the right guy for that job.

@shauner
I really think the trilogy is basically like a movie-lover's feast. It pulls from a smorgasbord of genres, blending "A" genres with "B" genres and ends up being something with a tone all its own. I see what you're saying with Scarface, but honestly it's tricky to even find the right comparison IMO. The movies are 'badass' without being R. They are dark and at times scary, which make the moments of levity and hope matter more. They deal with pretty serious subject matter but never lose sight of being entertaining thrill rides. They straddle the line between being commercial and being subversive. The stakes are always present and you have strong character dynamics throughout. It's just a very complete package when you look at all the movies together. It's a full, well-rounded meal of that's a celebration of movies as much as it's a celebration of a pop culture icon.

I think what it comes down to is Nolan basically lives in his own genre, or at least has been with his last several films. If I had to describe it I'd call it the "neo-noir-action-epic". Anybody that's an auteur is basically their own genre to me because they've taken existing film genres and consistently put their own spin on them to the point that the best way to describe their movies is "It's a Tarantino movie", or "It's a Wes Anderson movie", etc.

 

[The Joker]

Not a fan of Dawn of the Dead?

I liked bits of it, but overall it was fairly meh for me. And I'm a big zombie fan. I preferred the original tbh.

 

[Green Goblin]

I must be in a parallel universe where I'm more excited for BvS than Shaunner.

 

[hafizbat]

300 is easily my favorite Snyder movie. I just love the setting, the action, Butler and co, and the swagger that movie had. It was nothing more than a popcorn action flick and it excelled at that.

I know most will be very disappointed if BvS is on the same level, but honestly that's all I really want from it. Snyder tried and IMO failed badly at making a superhero movie with the depth and breadth of the TDK trilogy, so all I want from him is what he does best. I'm perfectly fine with BvS being a popcorn action flick with a badass, comic-booky Batman in all his dark glory, Superman and WW with their powers unleashed, and a decent story, with the type of swagger 300 or The Avengers had. And it's already a given that everything is going to look awesome.

I'd expect more of a TDKT level of sophistication from Affleck for the solo. Speaking of the TDKT, the movies have been playing on TV this week, and every time I catch even a glimpse, I just have to keep watching. The movies are only getting better with age, imho. Once you get past all the fanboy nitpicking, the expectations, the angst, etc all that's left is some damn good television.

 

[the last son]

Man the background actors in this are bad. In the second bane fight all anyone in the background is doing is rubbing each others arms. What kind of fighting is that? What happened to all the guns?

 

[shauner111]

The backround actors and extras are terrible in this entire trilogy. Ill still take the backround extras fighting poorly...in the backround...than some of the extras who have to deliver lines in both Begins and Knight.

 

[titansupes]

The best extra is the wide-eyed nodding guy in Dent's media conference.

 

[AnneFan]

I was going through the comic influences from TDK Rises.

There's some good ones here. There's a lot from The Cult:

An underground army in the sewers.
The streets devoid of crime at the beginning of the story.
Batman visiting Gordon in hospital.
The mayor killed in an explosion.
Destroying bridges and putting up barricades.
Encouraging followers to kill the powerful and wealthy in riots.
Bodies hung in public as a warning.
The military attempt to intervene, but are soon killed.
Batman hallucinates during his captivity.
Forced to watch the downfall of Gotham on TV.
He eventually destroys the TV after becoming fed up.
While imprisoned, Batman hears legends about the villain.
Told in a panel "The Dark Knight will yet rise from the ashes of defeat."
Villain fully intends to die for their cause.
Batman takes the city back with an armoured vehicle - The Bat in Rises.

TDK Returns:

Bruce retiring.
Using braces to strengthen limbs.
"We're in for a show kid."

Knightfall:

Bane breaking Batman's back.
Prisoners let out of their cells and given weapons.

Batman: Bane (1997)

Bane plans to destroy Gotham by overloading the reactor core of a nuclear power plant which was intended as an energy source. Bane gives a public warning, threatening doom if they don't comply with his demands. But he intends to detonate the bomb anyway.

 

[Snow Queen]

If you're looking for more:

Can't remember what it was in, but this isn't the first time Talia's served on a board under a false name. She was on LexCorp's under the alias Talia Head.

Selina being called The Cat on the papers like in her early appearances.

Blake's past with the orphanage was likely taken from the time that post-crisis Dick was in a Catholic orphanage before being taken in by Bruce. I want to say this was Batman: Year Three but I'm not 100% sure at the moment.

There's an Elseworlds story called Nine Lives where Dick was a cop and went to Wayne Manor to reveal Bruce how he knew Bruce is Batman.

Catwoman #1 from 1993 had Selina used a computer software to wipe her slate clean and allow her to disappear.

In Knightquest, Alfred leaves Bruce as protest against him going out there in his condition.

There was an Elseworlds story I can't recall the name of where Bruce and Selina got married.

 

[titansupes]

Plus, Ra's wife serving his sentence in the Pit for him (and having Talia there) is a twist on Bane serving his fathers prison sentence as a child.

Also this:

While searching for the Swiss in Rome, Bane encounters Ra's al Ghul's daughter Talia al Ghul. Talia introduces Bane to her father, and eventually Bane impresses Ra's so much that he chooses Bane as his heir (an "honor" he had previously imparted on Batman).

Ra's al Ghul and Bane then launch a plague attack on Gotham in the "Legacy" storyline. Bruce Wayne, again costumed as Batman, gets his rematch with Bane in Detective Comics #701 (September 1996) and finally defeats him in single combat. Since then, whenever Batman and Bane square off in battle, their fights usually end in a draw.

 

[The Joker]

And some people say TDKR wasn't faithful to the comics

 

[AnneFan]

Hah, yeah. TDK Rises has as many comic references as the best of them.

Also, in Knightfall Robin is captured and brought to Bane in the sewers - just like Gordon in Rises. He also escapes by falling down a stream. Plus the whole tagging bat logos from No Man's Land is an infuence.

 

[Kane52630]

Falafel guy > that dude in the back

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Falafel guy > that dude in the back

Eugh, that whole fight was so poorly choreographed. Slow, clumsy and awkward.

Wasn't there a new guy in charge of the choreography for TDKR?

EDIT: We lost Paul Jennings, as Tom Struthers was promoted. Jennings may not have been perfect, but he was better than this.