The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - Part 154

[The Joker]

Joker smacking faces once again!

 

[AnneFan]

It was definitely effective. When I saw the film for the first time in theaters, there was an elderly couple in the row in front of me... and the old man was crying when he thought Batman died, and then cheered up like a little kid when he showed up at the cafe. It was a little awkward, but I guess I'm glad the guy was really into the movie?

The problem is its only effective the first handful of times, and after the surprise has worn off its kinda bland. The ending to TDK is far more emotional, IMO. That ending never fails to deeply affect me. Its because TDK earns the emotion in the buildup of the preceding scenes, rather than attempting to force the emotion by misleading the audience.

When I first saw the movie, I almost thought Batman had died. I was telling myself it wasn't going to happen the whole time. But as the scene progressed, with Bruce's will being cut up, and Alfred crying in front of the grave, I was less sure. The reveal at the cafe was good, but I wasn't a fan of ending the franchise with the shot of Blake. I'm still not, to be honest. But I get the logic behind it. The replacement literally rises, and the water represents the ice of the opening bat logo having melted.

 

[titansupes]

When I first saw the movie, I almost thought Batman had died. I was telling myself it wasn't going to happen the whole time. But as the scene progressed, with Bruce's will being cut up, and Alfred crying in front of the grave, I was less sure. The reveal at the cafe was good, but I wasn't a fan of ending the franchise with the shot of Blake. I'm still not, to be honest. But I get the logic behind it. The replacement literally rises, and the water represents the ice of the opening bat logo having melted.

I see where you're coming from with this. I would have liked to have ended it on a shot of Bruce. It was his story. But, as you say, I understand the logic of ending on the NEW Dark Knight rising. And I do love the way the water falling sort of acts as a closing curtain for the trilogy.

 

[BatLobster]

There's also a nice symmetry to the fact that pretty much the first thing we see in Begins is young Bruce falling into the cave, and the last shot of the trilogy is the successor rising in that same cave.

I was initially a bit mixed on Blake getting the last shot but I've gotten used to it now. The "curtains coming down" effect is pretty nifty too.

Edit: Great minds think alike titan

 

[Penguin]

Random question, but does anyone know about if Batman kills or not in the upcoming movie? I don’t remember if anyone actually answered this question, but I recently seen that gif of Batman fighting those soldiers once again.

lol Joker appears to be cleaning house with those rebuttals.

 

[ThePhantasm]

So far we have no proof that Batman kills in the upcoming movie. I'm 90% certain that the scene with him fighting the soldiers is a typical Snyder vision/dream sequence, probably picturing a Superman dictatorship with Batman as a rebel.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Though I'll be honest... whether Batman kills or not isn't a terribly big deal to me.

 

[Brother Jack]

I see where you're coming from with this. I would have liked to have ended it on a shot of Bruce. It was his story. But, as you say, I understand the logic of ending on the NEW Dark Knight rising. And I do love the way the water falling sort of acts as a closing curtain for the trilogy.

I was lukewarm on it when I first saw the movie. But in the time since I've been able to reconcile it by looking at it less as Blake rising specifically but Batman as a symbol rising beyond the parameters of one single man. In that way it matches the last shots of the previous movies, all of them featuring Batman making manifest the titles of the films. He officially "begins", rides away a "dark knight", then "rises" beyond Bruce.

 

[AnneFan]

You know, people critisize sending every available officer into the sewers in TDKR. And that's fine. But this modus operandi is consistent with what we're shown in BB and TDK.

Loeb: "Gordon, there's no one else to send in."
Gordon: "Get every available unit down to the hospital."

 

[BlueLightning]

It's definitely misdirection, but on subsequent viewings I just read it differently. The first time I watched it, the closeup of Batman was saying "Welp...this will be a good death."

On subsequent viewings it becomes, "I've done enough now. Time to finally give life a try." That's the cool thing about the way Bale plays it, his facial expression can read as either of those things. He's at the end of a road one way or the other.

I mean, knowing twists in movies doesn't always make them lose their effectiveness. Vader telling Luke he's his father still gets me. And I still get really happy seeing Bruce in the cafe at the end. Not because it's a surprise (let's face it, it wasn't the hugest surprise even on first viewing), because it's a darn well-deserved ending for that character.

TDK ending is boss too of course. Classic ending. I put it right up there with the ending of T2 as far as emotional endings to an action film. TDKR's ending is more bittersweet for me and makes me reflect on the trilogy as a whole as it's the ending of 3 movies, not just one.

When I first saw the movie, what I was thinking was "Well, what are you going to do?". That moment at the cockpit is a crossroad for him. A good death, or a good life. Good enough. That scene always get me.

Thinking about this, both TDK and Rises have very emotional endings. Only Begins doesn't. But that first one also gets very emotional. I'm thinking about all the scenes of Bruce's past. Like the "It was my fault, I made them leave the theater. If I hadn't gotten scared..." moment.

In another note, I don't know about you but I wouldn't have minded a T-Rex skeleton in the Batcave.

 

[The Joker]

You know, people critisize sending every available officer into the sewers in TDKR. And that's fine. But this modus operandi is consistent with what we're shown in BB and TDK.

Loeb: "Gordon, there's no one else to send in."
Gordon: "Get every available unit down to the hospital."

The Begins situation was sending all the Cops into a section of Gotham, the Narrows, to stop a mass breakout at Arkham. Technically it's the same type of modus operandi, but a different situation altogether. You can't compare sending all the city's Cops into the sewers just to go after one man who's taken a few hostages, as opposed to sending them to a huge open populated section of the city to stop hundreds of criminals escaping, not to mention endanger the population of the Narrows.

The TDK one is not applicable. Gordon said send what available units they have to the hospital. As in the ones that were not tied up elsewhere. The others were involved in the other hospital evacuations, and protecting Reese. Gordon also had the smarts to call in the National Guard.

Thinking about this, both TDK and Rises have very emotional endings. Only Begins doesn't.

Yeah, but Begins had that awesome Joker card tease, which gave me goosebumps in a different way. I also love that "I never said thank you" "And you'll never have to" exchange between Batman and Gordon. Really sums up their friendship.

 

[I Am The Knight]

I find that final scene between Bruce and Rachel in BB to be very moving. It's a bittersweet moment between two friends.

Of course the one in TDK had me bawling like a baby, and the one in TDKR is pretty touching too.

 

[shauner111]

There's also a nice symmetry to the fact that pretty much the first thing we see in Begins is young Bruce falling into the cave, and the last shot of the trilogy is the successor rising in that same cave.

I was initially a bit mixed on Blake getting the last shot but I've gotten used to it now. The "curtains coming down" effect is pretty nifty too.

Edit: Great minds think alike titan

Bruce as a child, in broad daylight, falls into the dark cave by accident. John as a grown man, in broad daylight, falls/jumps into the cave with purpose.

Then you have the two scenes where adult Bruce and adult Blake enter the cave. Bats flying around them. They're looking at their destiny.

Also, the first shot of Bruce Wayne (Christian Bale), as a man, is a shot of his face. He's distressed. Sweating, waking up from a nightmare. He's in prison. It's bleak, dirty. He's lost. The final shot of Bruce Wayne (Bale), is a shot of his face. He's the opposite. He's happy, free. Beautiful surrounding. He's at peace.

 

[ThePhantasm]

The first shot of falafel guy, he's selling falafels

The second shot of falafel guy, he's selling falafels

#fullcircle
#parallel

 

[BatLobster]

When I first saw the movie, what I was thinking was "Well, what are you going to do?". That moment at the cockpit is a crossroad for him. A good death, or a good life. Good enough. That scene always get me.

I think that's def a valid way to read it.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

the 1000's of cops in the tunnel thing bothered me, then I realized TDK had a similar contrivance too. Namely Harvey Dent being able to put away 1000's of mob middlemen in a single stroke. We just have to accept these sweeping contrivances, they are a part of the films.

 

[The Joker]

the 1000's of cops in the tunnel thing bothered me, then I realized TDK had a similar contrivance too. Namely Harvey Dent being able to put away 1000's of mob middlemen in a single stroke. We just have to accept these sweeping contrivances, they are a part of the films.

That's not a contrivance. The Mob accountant, Lau, squealed on his clients in exchange for a deal. And it wasn't THOUSANDS of them either. A total of 947 criminals were hauled into court according to the Mayor, and that included the head guys who escaped conviction. The mid level guys couldn't afford it, and so they cut deals that included jail time.

Nothing contrived about that. Perfectly plausible. Mob informants leading to mass convictions happens in real life;

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ed-biggest-blitz-New-Yorks-crime-empires.html

http://www.nytimes.com/1987/12/17/world/338-guilty-in-sicily-in-a-mafia-trial-19-get-life-terms.html

Sending a whole city Police force into the sewers to catch one man.....not so much.

 

[BatLobster]

I agree sending the all the cops down into the sewer is more over the top than the RICO mass conviction, but to be fair Gordon knew it wasn't just about one man. He was down there and saw for himself that it was an underground army planning god knows what. He wanted Bane because he was clearly the leader.

 

[TeeKay]

I know TDKR wasn't as good as TDK but Bruce deserved that happy ending. It was earned imo considering his arc throughout the trilogy. It was emotional to me.

 

[AnneFan]

I agree sending the all the cops down into the sewer is more over the top than the RICO mass conviction, but to be fair Gordon knew it wasn't just about one man. He was down there and saw for himself that it was an underground army planning god knows what. He wanted Bane because he was clearly the leader.

True. They all knew the reports of the 'underground army', and to defeat an army it takes an army. By that stage Bane's men had left the sewers and were out in the streets and the football stadium. If they sent the police down there earlier, it wouldn't have been that dumb of a move.

 

[The Joker]

It was a dumb move no matter what way you slice it. What Gordon saw when he was under ground did not constitute an army. He saw a handful of armed men and a few homeless people.

Football game riots have larger crowds than that, and they don't send the entire Police force in to sort them out. There was no army at the Wall Street raid either. Just a few armed men and Bane. They had no reason to send the whole Police force down there. Especially just to "Smoke him out" as Gordon put it.

 

[BatLobster]

I think given what Gordon did see down there was enough to warrant a very large task force at the very least. On the other hand I do like the element of the GCPD becoming more like an army in the war/disaster scenario the movie presents.

I chalk up the tactical the error to a few things: Gordon knowing from experience that "masked men" in Gotham are the threat you don't not take seriously, being a bit overzealous after 8 years of peacetime, being a bit loopy from all the pain meds...with a side of convenient writing to be sure.

It's definitely not my favorite plot point as I don't like Gordon to come off like a bumbling fool. I think perhaps my bigger hesitation though is that it's not just that Gordon orders every cop down there, it's also that Bane counts on him to do exactly that and he falls for the trap. So the movie basically is either asserting that Bane was counting on Gordon to act in such an extreme manner, or that sending all the cops is the expected move that Bane rightly anticipates. It doesn't quite add up either way. This is just one of those plot points like the many instances in TDK where Joker has a basically supernatural ability to predict how people will behave and/or adapt his plan so that everything always goes his way.

 

[The Joker]

A couple of SWAT teams would have been sufficient for what he saw IMO. It was enough for Joker and his men at the Prewitt Building, and they had a ton of hostages, too.

 

[ThePhantasm]

I hated how they handled Gordon overall in TDKR. After being such a major player in BB and TDK, he really felt sidelined. He spends half the time in the hospital, the rest running around doing nigh-useless stuff while waiting on Batman to return to Gotham. And he ha very few interactions with Batman. I missed that dynamic.

The Bats-Gordon relationship is at the heart of the Nolan movies, which is why its absence here is so conspicuous. Its obvious that Gordon's role was diminished to make room for empty-suit two-dimensional wonderboy John Blake.

 

[The Shape]

Useless stuff? He, like Bruce, overcomes a lot in the film -- physically and emotionally -- as he is also physically "broken" and publicly shamed.

He winds up essentially being the 'John Connor' of the film, aka the leader of the "resistance" group of the handful of free cops (a la No Man's Land) working from within the city to keep track of Bane's actions and the bomb's movements. In the finale, Gordon is instrumental in saving the city. In fact, without his knowledge of the bomb's movements and decoy trucks (and also without Gordon physically jamming the detonator signal against formidable odds), Batman would not have been able to save the city.

While they were in short supply, the interactions between Batman and Gordon were effective, I thought, with the hospital scene being a stand-out. I also love Batman's return when he saves Gordon. "Light it up."