The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - Part 155

[shauner111]

He did something different? He still copped it from fans?

What are you on about?

 

[Tacit Ronin]

He is doing something different with the English language. Don't pick on him.

 

[shauner111]

So the new rumor is that Deadshot, Batman and im guessing Joker will be in some sort of "The Good, the Bad and the Ugly" scenario in the new batman film.

That sounds great to me. So much better than a Red Hood storyline. Batfleck as the Clint Eastwood type (the good), Will Smith as Lee Van Cleef (the bad), and Leto's J-Man as Tuco/Eli Wallach (the ugly).

Plus some Harley thrown in there.

It's a good idea to tie Suicide Squad into the solo Batman movie in a big way.

 

[BH/HHH]

Sounds good to me too

 

[Tacit Ronin]

How the heck is the Joker the Tuco type? Tuco was the most sympathetic character in the film. A big lol if Joker was.

 

[The Joker]

If Joker should be anyone in that trio it's the Bad, not Tuco. I can't see Batman doing something to the equivalent of cutting Joker free at the end and leaving him with a stack of gold to keep for himself. Even I don't believe the new DCCU will make that much of a bastardization.

 

[BatLobster]

It could be more of a very loose inspiration and not so much a 1 to correlation for each character. Not a bad idea.

Still gonna be tough to live up to ideological spectrum of Batman/Joker/Harvey we had in TDK though.

 

[Guts]

So the new rumor is that Deadshot, Batman and im guessing Joker will be in some sort of "The Good, the Bad and the Ugly" scenario in the new batman film.

That sounds great to me. So much better than a Red Hood storyline. Batfleck as the Clint Eastwood type (the good), Will Smith as Lee Van Cleef (the bad), and Leto's J-Man as Tuco/Eli Wallach (the ugly).

Plus some Harley thrown in there.

It's a good idea to tie Suicide Squad into the solo Batman movie in a big way.

I see what you did there.

 

[shauner111]

If Joker should be anyone in that trio it's the Bad, not Tuco. I can't see Batman doing something to the equivalent of cutting Joker free at the end and leaving him with a stack of gold to keep for himself. Even I don't believe the new DCCU will make that much of a bastardization.

If it was back in the western days, i could totally see Batman doing that to Joker. But Joker is not Tuco. He's not greedy for money like that. I was just making a little nod, on the surface, on who would be the good, the bad and the ugly in this situation. Of course there characters are different.

 

[Baneis8feettall]

I think Joker can be ugly. He had bigger role and more colorful character than Bad. Also remember ugly was a horrible person as well.

"Tuco was "wanted in 14 counties of this state, the condemned is found guilty of the crimes of murder; armed robbery of citizens, state banks and post offices; the theft of sacred objects; arson in a state prison; perjury; bigamy; deserting his wife and children; inciting prostitution; kidnapping; extortion; receiving stolen goods; selling stolen goods; passing counterfeit money; and contrary to the laws of this state the condemned is guilty of using marked cards etc."


Maybe Deadshot wants to kill Joker and Batman tries to prevent that. So Joker & Batman might kinda team up like The Good & The Ugly for a while. (Also in the movie good & ugly betray & tried to kill eachother multiple times)

 

[The Joker]

It's not about role size, or colorful personality. It's about what fits the characterization of said character. Many of Batman's enemies have colorful personalities and are guilty of most of those crimes. For example The Mad Hatter has a colorful personality, and has been guilty of robbery, kidnapping, murder, arson etc, too. As for those other crimes like inciting prostitution, bigamy, deserting his wife and kids etc, even that doesn't fit Joker's description.

Tuco was an opportunist who was just after money. Yeah he was dangerous and a killer, but so are 95% of Batman's enemies. He had a sympathetic back story involving his father and brother. He and Eastwood's Blondie formed an uneasy alliance throughout the movie, and together took out the real baddie, and at the end Blondie cut Tuco free and left him with a huge stack of gold, too.

This doesn't fit the Joker's character at all. The only way it works if it is a very, very, VERY loose adaption of the idea with some serious rewrites. Even then Joker should still be the bad. The ugly fits someone more like Penguin or maybe Two Face.

 

[shauner111]

I agree with your definitions Joker, but i also love the idea of Batman holding Joker hostage in his own way throughout the film, to hide him from Deadshot or others who may want to kill him off for good. Deadshot is on a quest, and he bumps heads with Batman early on in the movie. Joker tries to play Batman throughout and at some points gets away, getting the better of him, but Bats catches up to him in the end. Maybe in this version Joker kills himself off. Maybe he's thrown back in Arkham after being free since the "Suicide Squad era".

Joker is certainly not Tuco. But for this trio, he would be the ugliest and i would LOVE the comic book version of Sergio Leone's classic. Not a rip-off, just a general nod to that combination. Im not saying the movie has to end with the three of them in a huge spaced out stand-off inside Arkham Asylum or somewhere (even though that sounds epic), but just a general influence. That idea alone, rumor or not, gets me more excited than a live-action "Under The Red Hood" story.

 

[BatLobster]

You know, I've been thinking. After the decidedly mixed reception to the last trailer, I think there's a very real possibility that BvS ends up as another MoS. As in, has its passionate fans, but ultimately another divisive Snyder film that doesn't quite do what it's supposed to do in terms of getting people on board. I say this because this is one of those trailers that feels like a mini-summation of the movie.

I mean, don't get me wrong, hardcore DC fans are going to love it. I'm talking about the GA. Most of my GA friends thought the new trailer was flat out awful and think the movie is going to be a trainwreck. And it's just weird too, because usually Snyder's trailers always get people excited.

Maybe this will be the rare case where the movie is actually better than the trailer for a Snyder film? That's what I'm hoping. But yeah, I think this trailer has caused a lot of people to solidify their feelings on this film being a disaster. Might be tough to win some of those folks back.

 

[The Chris]

You know, I've been thinking. After the decidedly mixed reception to the last trailer, I think there's a very real possibility that BvS ends up as another MoS. As in, has its passionate fans, but ultimately another divisive Snyder film that doesn't quite do what it's supposed to do in terms of getting people on board. I say this because this is one of those trailers that feels like a mini-summation of the movie.

I mean, don't get me wrong, hardcore DC fans are going to love it. I'm talking about the GA. Most of my GA friends thought the new trailer was flat out awful and think the movie is going to be a trainwreck.

Honestly I've been expecting that since the very first teaser. I could be wrong, but I didn't know how the GA would feel about Batman and Superman actually fighting each other, especially in their first movie together. I saw a lot of people being put off by the tone at first too. I don't know, we'll see. I like Man of Steel but it's one of those movies that I like a lot while understanding where people are coming from who don't.

 

[BatLobster]

That's funny, I'm kind of the opposite with Man of Steel. It left me pretty cold, but I can also see what people like about it.

It's just interesting though because the first teaser got criticized for being too dark, and now this trailer is getting heat for feeling too campy.

I'm not saying that in a "DC just can't win it's not fair!!" way, but I just wonder if Snyder is the best one to strike the balance in tone that people are looking for- also if Eisenberg is striking the right tone with his Lex portrayal. Very curious what the actual tone of the movie will feel like.

 

[The Chris]

Yeah the first trailer's tone and the last trailer's tone being so different has me a little worried. Snyder is a filmmaker who's work I enjoy but I wouldn't consider him a great one. He's got too many flaws in the storytelling department, especially with things like tone. I actually wish they got another director for Justice League just so I can see a different vision. That's one of the reasons I am excited for Suicide Squad (especially since I am a fan of David Ayer), even with how stupid I think Joker looks.

 

[shauner111]

I like MoS and i don't at the same time. It has potential but never quite executes it properly.

I do think that this movie will be better received than MoS. I think the dialogue will be better, in places, and the story is a little more fresh than another friggin origin story for Clark Kent. I think the hardcore DC fans will LOVE Batfleck, hailing him as the greatest of all time. The GA will like him more than they thought they would, but as a movie, i do agree that people will probably feel MEH about the whole thing. I hope im wrong but i get the same feeling.

What i hope for is a case where DC continues but puts more focus on Batman movies instead of the Cyborgs of the universe, or another Superman. Maybe even holding back on Justice League sequel after Justice League sequel.

 

[BatLobster]

Mind you, I'm not saying this is what I think WILL happen, I'm just saying I think the possibility is there. Especially given Snyder's track record.

And especially with Suicide Squad coming out in the same year, I really think the possibility is there that it'll be the better received of the two.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

What i hope for is a case where DC continues but puts more focus on Batman movies instead of the Cyborgs of the universe, or another Superman.

this is exactly what they should not do. In order to have a thriving cinematic universe, they need more than Batman and Superman. They need to stop using them as a crutch.

 

[BatLobster]

WB/DC is just in this awkward situation where, no matter what they do, Batman is always going to be the primary breadwinner. I don't think that's ever going to change. He's the most popular with good reason.

Hence why they're launching Suicide Squad as the first non-Batman or Superman DCEU film. Because it's essentially a Batman spinoff film.

 

[shauner111]

I have much more confidence in Suicide Squad and i bet critics give it a better rating too.

this is exactly what they should not do. In order to have a thriving cinematic universe, they need more than Batman and Superman. They need to stop using them as a crutch.

As a business, they need to build a cinematic universe and hope that Justice League and Batman v Superman make a lot of cash and pleases a lot of people. But for my own personal taste and opinion, i can care less about a cinematic universe. I think this stuff is a current trend and it's not doing Batman any favors. Im saying this as somebody who can care less about seeing another solo Superman story or another Green Lantern. I would like to see more than one PROPER Batman movie instead of only seeing one and having to put up with 4 films where Batman is trying to fight off aliens and 40 foot tall monsters. Especially if this Batman ends up being awesome. That would be a huge waste.

 

[The Shape]

WB/DC is just in this awkward situation where, no matter what they do, Batman is always going to be the primary breadwinner. I don't think that's ever going to change. He's the most popular with good reason.

That most likely never will change, nor should it, and it doesn't mean that WB/DC is in an awkward situation at all. If anything, it works in their favor now and moving forward. Batman represents a tried-and-true property for WB/DC that will always be successful, profitable, and prolific. I doubt anyone at WB/DC is saying "Oh man, Batman is the hero who makes us the most money. We must change this!"

Now, WB/DC simply needs to focus on building up their other properties around and alongside Batman. BvS will automatically increase brand awareness for both Superman and Wonder Woman. Suicide Squad will increase brand awareness for several second and third-tier characters, and the rest of the solo/team-up films on their slate will clearly increase brand awareness for the other JL members who have never appeared on screen before (WW, Aquaman, Flash, etc), building strong individual film properties for each of them -- just as Marvel did with their second-tier characters.

I actually think WB is handling this new DC film universe exactly how they should be. The fact that they already have the most popular and iconic superhero in the world on their team is nothing but a positive for them. It means they have a little less work to do and don't necessarily have to start from scratch with all of their heroes.

 

[BatLobster]

Only "awkward" in the sense that we have to sort of pretend that Superman is the true center of it all, the leader of the JL, etc....but in reality, Batman is the most popular guy on the team, even though he can only punch and throw stuff.

I always say, the rest of the DC Universe benefits much more from Batman's inclusion than he benefits from them. Not that it's going to HARM him (Batman always bounces back no matter what), but Batman would do just as well if BvS was followed up by some solo Bat-films rather than two Justice League films.

I guess moral of the story is that Batman is pretty much adaptable as hell and can thrive in a number of different contexts. It however remains to be seen if he's more potent from a business standpoint as a standalone character of when paired up with other DC characters. For example, if you look to TV, BTAS was more popular the JLA.

 

[The Batman]

A major reason why Batman remains DC's primary character is because, IMO, WB/DC don't get Superman and no longer know how to use him to his full potential. Let's not forget that Superman was the primary DC character for 50 years straight.

BTAS was on Network TV during a Golden Age of Animation. JLTAS was on a cable station.

 

[BatLobster]

A lot in our pop culture has changed so much in the past 30 years though.

I think after Dark Knight Returns and Batman 89, that genie was sort of out of the bottle. What I mean by that is the idea that Batman was the cooler, darker more interesting character permeated the mainstream and it's been pretty much set that way ever since.

On top of that, Batman's world and villains are just way more iconic. I agree that WB/DC haven't done a great deal to nurture Superman's popularity and relevancy (including many years of simply doing nothing with the movie franchise), but at the end of the day I really think Batman would still be more popular in 2015 regardless of what was happening with Superman. Gotham City, The Batmobile, The Joker, the rogues gallery, the crime/detective aspect mixed with fantasy- just the whole package that comes along with Batman is an extremely tough one to beat, especially in a world where writers are given license to take the material seriously. The 60s show laid a lot of the groundwork to make Batman's world and supporting characters more iconic, and then once the 80s came around it was a perfect storm for Batman to become emerge as the top dog for the modern era.

This is not to say there hasn't been a ton of truly great Superman content in the comics over the past 30 years, but I just think from a mainstream perspective...Batman just has too much really cool stuff going for him on a very primal level for Supes to compete.