The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - Part 156

In my opinion, The "rise of the freaks" plot line was realized in The Dark Knight to it's fullest extent without going straight into "Arkham City" territory.

It's sequel was under no obligation to continue that idea.

The idea of escalation is carried over into Rises with the Dent Act bolstering the police force to eradicate the mob. In essence it's the police and city legislation escalating in response to the crime wave caused by the Joker, making Batman irrelevant in the process. Then Bane comes and topples all of that over, raising the stakes again so that Batman has to return to put an end to it. Bruce crosses the line first with Batman (though an argument could be made Ra's did it first), which begets the Joker, which begets the Dent Act, which begets Bane's siege.
 
The idea of escalation is carried over into Rises with the Dent Act bolstering the police force to eradicate the mob. In essence it's the police and city legislation escalating in response to the crime wave caused by the Joker, making Batman irrelevant in the process. Then Bane comes and topples all of that over, raising the stakes again so that Batman has to return to put an end to it. Bruce crosses the line first with Batman (though an argument could be made Ra's did it first), which begets the Joker, which begets the Dent Act, which begets Bane's siege.

That is an excellent way of looking at it.
 
Having rewatched it, I think I've got to rant against it.

The main flaw was plot-structure and motivations. Why is Ra's vision being furthered by someone he excommunicated? And why does Batman choose now to come out of retirement?
There are some shades of recent politics and/or just goofiness in Bane bellowing about "THE CORRUPT!!!!" when he's openly threatening the city with destruction just over people leaving. I also didn't like or understand his voice as much as before.
Bane learning about and revealing the deception felt too much a coincidence (and shouldn't have been that damaging to Gordon's reputation or the authorities in general).
Selina Kyle nicely wasn't as evil as I remembered but she was still much too unlikeable, too smirky without having enough of the necessary charisma.
Bruce Wayne comes off too negatively in the first half, saying that Rachel was his whole life and hope outside of Batman and not knowing that abandoning the reactor would and did hurt the company profits so much.
Tate feels pretty thrown-in, not adding much but in retrospect obviously suspicious and likely bad.
Bane never held a grudge against Ras, probably because he saved his life and gave him a purpose. Loyalty to the League.

Why does Bruce choose now to come out of retirement? Um did you watch the movie? Bane and Catwoman weren't good enough reasons? He was looking for a big excuse to return as Batman and possibly die in the cowl. Bane made it easy for him.

Bane's speech about corruption was true in many ways but he used that to get the people to understand and then fear him.

Of course it would be damaging for Gordon's reputation. What he lied about was a huge deal.

Selina is not an "evil" character, and she is smirky. You're allowed to not like it though.

Well, showing Bruce in a negative light was the point really. Rachel WAS his only ticket to a normal life. He thought that way since Begins.
 
Bane never held a grudge against Ras, probably because he saved his life and gave him a purpose. Loyalty to the League.

I guess that's a basis for the loyalty but it still felt weird and excessive that their visions and plans were so similar, especially as it was unclear why Ra's excommunicated him other than that he loved his daughter and why that was so bad (unless it was that she was too young) and why that wouldn't cause more resentment from Bane.

Why does Bruce choose now to come out of retirement? Um did you watch the movie? Bane and Catwoman weren't good enough reasons? He was looking for a big excuse to return as Batman and possibly die in the cowl. Bane made it easy for him.

Bane was built up OK but not quite convincingly enough-he's big, he's got skills/training, he has supporters or even an army, but all he does is (aside from organizing a kidnapping), pretty much on his own, attack the exchange (then he went to Catwoman to find what she had done with his finger prints, admittedly personally important). I had a hard time believing that something similarly bad had never happened in years, that that was enough to risk being hunted by the police (and thus hurting his own mission) and that later he was so overconfident he thought he could just beat Bane and the rest of his group too so soon after returning.
Catwoman was far from threatening or a big problem although it was weird and another flaw that Batman was so confident she could be trusted to lead to him to Bane in a helpful way, he felt she knew enough and dealt enough to know where he was but not to trick him either out of greed or her own safety from Bane and his group.
That Bruce actually had a death wish, which Alfred thought, seemed possible but not clear and too extreme a reaction to losing Rachel but doing a lot of good for the city. Helping the city again economically after he learns its problems should have been reinvigorating enough, why does he just reject Alfred's idea that the city needs his mind and resources more than his body?


Bane's speech about corruption was true in many ways but he used that to get the people to understand and then fear him.

It felt pretty cliched and opportunistic-populist to me and again he's so clearly malevolent and unreasonable it's really hard to take it seriously.

Of course it would be damaging for Gordon's reputation. What he lied about was a huge deal.

There would be some damage but even from the text it's clear he felt anguished about it and mostly hurt himself in lying about Dent nearly killing his son (and there were other deaths but that wasn't emphasized, actually not specifically referenced, just "appalling crimes") and wanted to and was getting ready to tell the public the truth (and resign from his power position for having lied before), rather than someone who casually or greedily lied about injustice to other people (and it's also a leap that Dent actually being bad and that being lied about meant the prisoners were being oppressed).

Well, showing Bruce in a negative light was the point really. Rachel WAS his only ticket to a normal life. He thought that way since Begins.

But he had dedicated so much before to helping the people and even after got pretty involved in the energy project (I guess learning it could be a terrible weapon would make him more cynical but not enough to both become totally reclusive and not notice a stark decline in his company's and foundation's wellbeing, to think that because Batman wasn't needed anymore the public didn't need him in other ways).
 
Last edited:
I don't think Bane/Talia were necessarily just a redo of Ra's. The film even states that Bane is more extreme than Ra's. Talia states that Ra's saw "only a monster" in Bane.

To me, they wanted to finish his work in terms of destroying Gotham, but their methods were so much more militaristic and cruel. Ra's genuinely thought he was saving the world, but there's a streak of vengeance in the Bane/Talia plot that is really about punishing Gotham and its protector, Bruce.
 
To me, they wanted to finish his work in terms of destroying Gotham, but their methods were so much more militaristic and cruel. Ra's genuinely thought he was saving the world, but there's a streak of vengeance in the Bane/Talia plot that is really about punishing Gotham and its protector, Bruce.

Agree with every word.

This one guy I argued with said his problems with Bane and Talia were that they wanted the same thing Ras wanted in Begins but he wanted the villain to be Black Mask, a guy who basically wants the same things Falcone and Maroni wanted in Begins/TDK. He even said that Black Mask was a kind of villain we've never seen in the series up to that point which was just absurd.
 
Black Mask would have been great if they actually expanded on the freaks taking over from the remnants of the mob angle. But since Nolan wanted to go full circle with Ra's and the LOS, Bane and Talia made sense.
 
They could have done it without Taila in my opinion.
 
They could have done it without Taila in my opinion.

I always wondered if Talia wasn't involved would Bane then be the son of Ra's?

It definitely would have freed up plot and screen time for Selina and possibly Gordon too.
 
I'm at Hanz Zimmer Live tonight. Ready for the feels when TDKT bit starts.
 
Bane would have been my least preferred villain to end the trilogy with, but I give Hardy and Nolan huge praise for reinventing the character into something I actually liked. Didn't like the 'full circle' thing and would have preferred they would have dropped Talia at the very least and the LOS at the most.
 
Bane would have been my least preferred villain to end the trilogy

Who would you have preferred if you don't mind me asking.
 
I'm at Hanz Zimmer Live tonight. Ready for the feels when TDKT bit starts.

It was so good!! How awesome was that Lion King section too?

I feel like my life is just a little more complete having witnessed Hans Zimmer himself lead a deshi basara chant. :woot:
 
Last edited:
It was so good!! How awesome was that Lion King section too?

I feel like my life is just a little more complete having witnessed Hans Zimmer himself lead a deshi basara chant. :woot:

That was pretty crazy, and the entire show was great. I can only imagine how wild it would have been to see that at Coachella.
 
Please not Riddler, please not Riddler..

Haha...well first pick would have been a returning Joker obviously or even Two Face. Outside of them, I mean I hate to disappoint you but probably the Riddler. I always enjoyed how John Doe was a "riddleresque' type character and how they had his presence throughout the film, without really seeing him until the end. I hated a lot of the ideas a lot of the hypsters would post on how the Riddler could be an ex FBI agent or something that would track Batman down. To be honest, I was as much fascinated with the Trilogy stories as I was the reinventing or Nolanizing of the characters on screen. How would Nolan reinterpret Penguin, Riddler, Mr. Freeze, and on and on. I found the designs, costuming and art direction just really fascinated me. Again, Bane was and has always been my LEAST favourite Batman villain and oddly enough Doomsday is my LEAST favourite Superman villain. But as a credit to Nolan, he just really made it work for me (can't say the same for Snyder's doomsday). Bane's scenes are perhaps my favourite parts of TDKR and I thought Hardy was an excellent choice and did an amazing job.
I was curious to see a Nolanized Catwoman as Pfieffer was perhaps my favourite portrayed baddie from the older films. Catwoman was probably the only character that I didn't feel was improved upon. Although I think Anne had a great take on the character, something was just missing for me. More screen time? The costuming? I'm not sure.
Ha, that was probably a long winded answer but honestly I was pretty well up for any villain except for Bane and in the end I thought Nolan/Hardy really won me over.
 
Last edited:
well first pick would have been a returning Joker

Well I wouldn't necessarily be opposed, I wouldn't want him to be the main source of conflict for two movies in a row or have him hijack the movie away from an established villain like in Mask of the Phantasm or Arkham Origins.

but probably the Riddler.

Not gonna lie, I'd love to see a Nolanverse version of the Riddler.
 
Last edited:
All this talk about Nolanized Batvillains has me craving a Nolanverse TV Series penned by Jonah. :awesome:
 
Has anyone read the Batman: Gotham Knight novelization?

It's truly set in the Nolan-verse, unlike the animated movie, making references to Begins, Rachel Dawes and setting up the concept of escalation for Dark Knight.

It was a pleasant suprise for me.
 
Unfortunately Jonah doesn't think Penguin, Clayface etc work in the Nolanverse.

Riddler would work extremely well in the Nolanverse, but the only way it would have worked right after TDK, is if Nygma was a private investigator or something. It would need to make sense. Not just a random John Doe. Even with the FBI agent or P.I direction, i don't think it's EVER a good idea following Joker with Riddler. Bane and Catwoman was a great choice. The mob freaks would have been fun (Black Mask, Penguin) but i understand why it would be repetitive after a while. I thought they made the perfect choice in the end.
 
Has anyone read the Batman: Gotham Knight novelization?

It's truly set in the Nolan-verse, unlike the animated movie, making references to Begins, Rachel Dawes and setting up the concept of escalation for Dark Knight.

It was a pleasant suprise for me.
I heard that a few months ago. And isn't there a little nod to the Penguin? From what i read about the novelization, it strips away the little stories from the animation that didn't quite work.
 
I heard that a few months ago. And isn't there a little nod to the Penguin? From what i read about the novelization, it strips away the little stories from the animation that didn't quite work.

Yeah, there is a cool nod at the end regarding Penguin. It's written by Louise Simonson and she basically takes the ''shorts'' and fully realises one complete story.

I totally read Batman in Bale's voice. It was nice to get another little adventure in the Nolan-verse.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top
monitoring_string = "afb8e5d7348ab9e99f73cba908f10802"