The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - Part 156

Katie Holmes was definitely the weak link of Batman Begins and Gylenhaal was definitely a step-up. To be fair though, Rachel really wasn't that great of a character to begin with.

TDKR's Selina Kyle was a vast improvement in every regard. Bottom line, Holmes was pretty weak throughout, Cottilard was really only bad in her death scene, other than that, She was fine.

Fanboys like to blow things out of proportion and make out as though one bad scene makes the entire performance poor.

Right on the money on that one, Joker.
 
Katie has some cringe moments throughout, but she was mostly average. Nolan has gotten better overall with female characters since then.
 
Its easily Katie, even though she wasn't that bad, her performance is the one that is often labelled poor, when her acting was perfectly adequate. She just was surrounded by acting giants, and came off as the lackluster performance. Contrast to Marion who just gets flak for her death scene. In the rest of the movie she's solid. Fanboys like to blow things out of proportion and make out as though one bad scene makes the entire performance poor.

Katie's Razzie nomination for Rachel didn't help. But then who actually takes the Razzies seriously. I mean Danny DeVito got a nomination for playing the Penguin in Batman Returns.
I think both performances were actually pretty good. I’d like to think the majority audience found them okay as well and it’s just the fanboys who make a deal about Talias death and Katie’s whole performance. Whenever I watch them with others they don’t have anything bad to say but that’s also just my anecdotal evidence.
 
Talia reveal is still one of my favorite scenes of the trilogy. Everyone’s acting in it is amazing and Marion is perfectly cold and just evil. And Christian bales sad “please” he gives is very vulnerable and genuine. Also the soundtrack is just the best
 
Katie was alright. I liked her except for two scenes. Her reaction to Batman right by the subway, and when she pulled her “i’m the assistant D.A! Let me through” card. Not believable in the slightest. Cringey. That’s why Maggie was a step up. I believed her position. When she was serious, it worked. When she had to flirt, it didn’t work.

Death scene aside, Marion was very good in her Talia reveal. Unfortunately, everything else felt like she was on auto pilot. Maybe it’s because she didn’t have much to work with or because she was pregnant (or just gave birth) so her head wasn’t entirely focused. I don’t know but whenever I rewatch it, It’s clear to me that Miranda Tate was a weaker performance from her.

To be honest, Marion was lazy casting. She didn’t shake her French accent. She’s white, she’s French, she’s about the same age or older than Tom Hardy. None of this makes sense. I think Nolan just wanted to work with his Inception crew again. It annoys me that he would go out of his way to white wash certain characters, yet a small side character like Jen couldn’t be played by a black girl? Strange decisions.
 
To be honest, Marion was lazy casting. She didn’t shake her French accent. She’s white, she’s French, she’s about the same age or older than Tom Hardy. None of this makes sense. I think Nolan just wanted to work with his Inception crew again. It annoys me that he would go out of his way to white wash certain characters, yet a small side character like Jen couldn’t be played by a black girl? Strange decisions.

Her father was a white man named Henri Ducard. Bane's age is imperceptible under the mask and the voice. These are not problems.
 
Was his name really Henri Ducard? That was his disguise no? Her mother wasn’t white. Her parents weren’t french either. It’s time to admit, whether we liked the performances/actors or not, Nolan white-washed Ras Al Ghul, Talia Al Ghul and Bane.
 
He was Ducard (or rather "the mercenary") before he was Ra's. It's not explicitly stated, but it seems that Ra's Al Ghul was a moniker he adopted or invented when he became leader of the League. It should also be stated that the name Henri Ducard was taken from a character in the comics who is French. Talia's mother's ethnicity it ambiguous because the location of the pit is ambiguous. It looks vaguely middle eastern, but it was filmed in India and its prisoners are racially diverse. You could single out Nolan for white washing with Ra's, but there was a narrative reason to conceal his identity.
 
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He was Ducard (or rather "the mercenary") before he was Ra's. It's not explicitly stated, but it seems that Ra's Al Ghul was a moniker he adopted or invented when he became leader y the League. It should also be stated that the Henri Ducard was taken from a character in the comics who is French. Talia's mother's ethnicity it ambiguous because the location of the pit is ambiguous. It looks vaguely middle eastern, but it was filmed in India and its prisoners are racially diverse. You could single out Nolan for white washing with Ra's, but there was a narrative reason to conceal his identity.
Fair point. But I’m not sure I agree with “Ducard is his real name/identity” because that would make her Talia Ducard? Doesn’t add up. My interpretation was: Miranda Tate was a fake name, or at the very least she legally changed it to Miranda Tate...but she was born Talia Al Ghul. Just like Ducard was a fake name for Ras. At the very least she should be half middle eastern and she’s not. Ras Al Ghul was never a “batman”, “pass the torch onto a new Ras”. I know some ppl look at it that way, I do not. There was one Ras Al Ghul.
 
I actually think Katie is pretty good in Begins. The thing was, at the time she just had such a baby face that it felt like she stepped right off the set of Dawson's Creek. I guess you're supposed to go with it in a "she's mature beyond her years" sort of way. She just reads on screen like she could be 10 years younger than Bale even though they're supposed to be the same age. But she definitely took the role seriously and gave a real performance, despite what she was up against, so she deserves some credit there.

Also, while it is true that Nolan whitewashed those roles-- it's also important to remember that Begins came out only 4 years after 9/11 and the trilogy was openly dealing with terrorism. I think there's something to be said for not going all-in on the Middle Eastern aspect of the al Ghuls, so as to allow the movies to still have a sense of escapism. So you can touch on what's going on in the world and tap into those anxieties, without literally making the movie explicitly about the fight against Middle Eastern extremism. 24 was already doing plenty of that at the time. I get the choice, plus Neeson as Ra's is still works fantastically well, and made for a good twist. That said, Bane could've been Latino. It would've been interesting to see what Javier Bardem could've done with the role for instance. Same time, I also don't think a director should be faulted for simply choosing an actor they have a good working relationship with and who fits the vision they have, versus making a choice to fill a quota. I know it's a sensitive topic and it's not a simple one, so I don't mean to diminish it. But I think it would be one thing if Nolan full-on did the South American origin for Bane exactly like the comics and then cast Tom Hardy. But they were working with a different take on the character. You could call it a missed opportunity, but I still believe in a director's right to make choices that suit their vision and the story they want to tell.

As for the al Ghul thing, I mean as we know "Ra's al Ghul" translates to "Head of the Demon". That surely wasn't Liam Neeson's character's birth name. I think his real name was Ducard, and IMO he ascends to the mantle as the "Head" of the LOS some years after finding them and rising in their ranks. But the ambiguity makes it more fun.
 
I guess it works both ways. But then what does Talia Al Ghul mean? If Ras Al Ghul means “head of the demon”. Lol.
 
I guess it works both ways. But then what does Talia Al Ghul mean? If Ras Al Ghul means “head of the demon”. Lol.

Well, I think that's just where comic book wackiness steps in a bit heh. Technically she's never referred to as Talia Al Ghul in the film. Not sure how she's listed in the credits off hand, but I think it's probably just Miranda Tate. Also worth noting that "Tête" means "Head" in French.
 
Agreed completely. It's not just the best CBM trilogy ever, but one of the best trilogies ever. Period!
Absolutely I’d say
Tdk trilogy
Original Star Wars trilogy
LOTR trilogy
Fist full of dollars trilogy
And I suppose godfather just by the first 2 anyway
 
I’ve always heard people say why didn’t the cops use there guns instead of charging at banes men but I’m pretty sure the police traded there guns for supplies right? I swear that’s what happened
 
Absolutely I’d say
Tdk trilogy
Original Star Wars trilogy
LOTR trilogy
Fist full of dollars trilogy
And I suppose godfather just by the first 2 anyway

I'd include M: I 4, 5, and 6 along with the Captain America trilogy.
 
I'd include M: I 4, 5, and 6 along with the Captain America trilogy.
Wow I just looked at the review scores for mission impossible. They are pretty good so yeah I’d say it belongs. Cap is definitely the best mcu trilogy but first avenger makes it somewhat iffy on it being one of the best ever. I’m leaning towards saying yes or at least it being in the top 10 trilogy’s in my eyes
 
Rises is winning a big poll against begins on Twitter for who is the second best of the trilogy. Doesn’t mean anything but I think it help dispel the notion of it being the weakest when it’s contrary to evidence. All 3 are amazing no matter what
 
Rises is winning a big poll against begins on Twitter for who is the second best of the trilogy. Doesn’t mean anything but I think it help dispel the notion of it being the weakest when it’s contrary to evidence. All 3 are amazing no matter what

My impression has always been that out of those two, the GA loves TDKR while fanboys prefer BB.
 

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