The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - Part 156

[SwordOfMorning]

TDKR is better than any MCU or DCEU movie.

This man speaks the truth.

TDKR for my money is a better film than BB. It's messier but its characters are more memorable and better written with the possible exception of the sadly underdeveloped Talia and Jonathan Nolan's dialogue is just way more fun than Goyer's. Yeah, it's still over the top and silly but in more of a theatrical, melodramatic way than Goyer's.

 

[KaijuDude1992]

I'd definitely put TDKR over the majority of MCU and DCEU films. Hell the sewer scene in TDKR alone with the awesome, brutal sound design and Bane's epic dialogue is far more memorable than any scenes from the MCU or DCEU films other than maybe the NY battle in the first Avengers and the end battle in Endgame.

 

[shauner111]

I think Rises does some **** better than Begins and vice versa. But nowadays I rate it the same as Begins. 4 out of 5 stars. 8 on 10. Which is the same as Logan, Joker, maaaaybe Batman 89 (I usually bounce between 3.5 & 4 stars).

The MCU and DCEU movies, for my taste, are all 3.5 or under.

 

[Neil McCauley]

TDKR is better than any MCU or DCEU movie.

Not sure I agree with this but I think it has highs on par with the best MCU film and best DCEU film.

TDK and BB I would agree (TWS is the only movie I’d put on par or better than BB)

The pit scene and Batman vs Bane are amazing. I appreciate the movie enough to not argue over this

 

[Neil McCauley]

My ranking

1. The Dark Knight 10/10

(Huge gap)

2. The Winter Soldier 9.5/10

3. Batman Begins 9/10

4. Joker 9/10

5. Infinity War 8.5/10

6. Iron Man 8.5/10

7. Wonder Woman 8.5/10

8. The Dark Knight Rises 8.5/10

9. Watchmen 8/10

10. Civil War / Spider-Man 1 8/10

Honorable mentions: MoS, AoU, Ragnarok, X2 and V For Vendetta

 

[Dede]

Yeah I personally think tdkr is better than every mcu and DCEU including joker. It sounds confrontational to say it’s better so I usually go with it’s at least as good as the mcu best

 

[Neil McCauley]

Yeah I personally think tdkr is better than every mcu and DCEU including joker. It sounds confrontational to say it’s better so I usually go with it’s at least as good as the mcu best

How does it stack compared to X2, Logan and DOFP for you?

I think that Civil War quality is the most fair take on TDKR, both have flaws and some dumb stuff but the highs like the ending, or airport scene are still enough to made you forget about that.

Joker is a tighter and better film for me, and it's not even close.

 

[shauner111]

My ranking

1. The Dark Knight 10/10

(Huge gap)

2. The Winter Soldier 9.5/10

3. Batman Begins 9/10

4. Joker 9/10

5. Infinity War 8.5/10

6. Iron Man 8.5/10

7. Wonder Woman 8.5/10

8. The Dark Knight Rises 8.5/10

9. Watchmen 8/10

10. Civil War / Spider-Man 1 8/10

Honorable mentions: MoS, AoU, Ragnarok, X2 and V For Vendetta

Nice. I should make my own top 10 CBM’s and post it. But in the meantime I’ll just steal your list and add my own ratings for them

TDK (4.5/5)
Winter Soldier (3.5/5)
Begins (4/5)
Joker (4/5) - but I’d rather watch Begins
Infinity War (3/5)
Iron Man (2.5/5)
Wonder Woman (3/5)
TDKR (4/5)
Watchmen (2.5/5) - haven’t seen the DC
Civil War (3.5/5)
Spider-Man (Raimi? 3/5)
Man Of Steel (2.5 or 3/5)
Age of Ultron (1/5) - garbage to me
Ragnarok (3.5/5) -
X2 (3/5)
V For Vendetta (3.5/5) - need to rewatch

 

[Neil McCauley]

Nice. I should make my own top 10 CBM’s and post it. But in the meantime I’ll just steal your list and add my own ratings for them

TDK (4.5/5)
Winter Soldier (3.5/5)
Begins (4/5)
Joker (4/5) - but I’d rather watch Begins
Infinity War (3/5)
Iron Man (2.5/5)
Wonder Woman (3/5)
TDKR (4/5)
Watchmen (2.5/5) - haven’t seen the DC
Civil War (3.5/5)
Spider-Man (Raimi? 3/5)
Man Of Steel (2.5 or 3/5)
Age of Ultron (1/5) - garbage to me
Ragnarok (3.5/5) -
X2 (3/5)
V For Vendetta (3.5/5) - need to rewatch

I know that I am in the extreme minority when I say that I really enjoyed Age of Ultron, it was my favorite Avenger movie a year ago and it's still my 2nd right now. But 1/5 is a bit too harsh IMO, same applies to Watchmen. Why do you hate it?

Glad to see you like Civil War, I feel it's another fun watch and way better than Endgame and other movies like GOTG which were corny as hell. The third act is still the best MCU fight IMO.

Yeah, I am talking about Raimi which I feel it's one of the most fun superhero films. While you have to be in a good mood to see something like TWS or Joker, Spider Man is just a good watch about a relatable hero with an excellent villain. I feel it's a bit underrated because it gets compared to its overrated sequel.

I think TDKR is easily on par or better than these films but a bit below a tight film like BB and TWS, due to a few stuff (Talia's death, plot stuff)

 

[shauner111]

Spider-Man 2 to me is leagues above the first one. I’ll always enjoy SM1, but the whole Green Goblin thing doesn’t sit well with me. I love DaFoe but he was miscast. Doc Ock was written better and less over the top performance wise. And as a huge wrestling fan, anytime i see a Hollywood movie where it’s obvious the director doesn’t know jack**** about it and chooses to feed into the dated misconceptions...I can’t get passed it lol.

Watchmen’s theatrical is fine. I own the DC on blu ray but it’s so long for a movie I wasn’t crazy about to begin with. So it just sits there.

Ultron is one of the worst and pointless cash-grabbing superhero flicks I’ve ever seen. And it looks terrible too. I only remember liking some of the scenes back at Hawkeye’s house. Forgettable, loud, corny, destruction porn with bad humour and nonsensical subplots. Another robot army...snooooze.

Civil War was the true Avengers sequel. I like it less each time I watch it but it’s one of the better MCU movies. Better than Infinity War or Endgame. I have my issues with it (like Winter Soldier - they cant commit to a serious idea or death). But they’re both good fun. I don’t take them seriously. They’re still quippy as hell.

 

[Neil McCauley]

Spider-Man 2 to me is leagues above the first one. I’ll always enjoy SM1, but the whole Green Goblin thing doesn’t sit well with me. I love DaFoe but he was miscast. Doc Ock was written better and less over the top performance wise. And as a huge wrestling fan, anytime i see a Hollywood movie where it’s obvious the director doesn’t know jack**** about it and chooses to feed into the dated misconceptions...I can’t get passed it lol.

Watchmen’s theatrical is fine. I own the DC on blu ray but it’s so long for a movie I wasn’t crazy about to begin with. So it just sits there.

Ultron is one of the worst and pointless cash-grabbing superhero flicks I’ve ever seen. And it looks terrible too. I only remember liking some of the scenes back at Hawkeye’s house. Forgettable, loud, corny, destruction porn with bad humour and nonsensical subplots. Another robot army...snooooze.

Civil War was the true Avengers sequel. I like it less each time I watch it but it’s one of the better MCU movies. Better than Infinity War or Endgame. I have my issues with it (like Winter Soldier - they cant commit to a serious idea or death). But they’re both good fun. I don’t take them seriously. They’re still quippy as hell.

I think Dafoe was one of the best castings in the trilogy and one of the best CBMs villains, so we disagree here.. Ock wasn't as interesting or menacing for me. Fair enough with Watchmen.

Yeah, but AoU was well paced, introduced new characters and set-up Civil War and has great action scenes. I think Vision and Tony were solid acting-wise in that movie. And the ending is far better than A1 one. Really don't see why you or others don't like it but again, I liked BvS, The Phantom Menace and The First Avenger lol.

I used to not like CW much, but it got better in my last watch. I think it's a mix of a serious tone (accords) and fun (airport scene) so it works well even if the jokes are a huge flaw when the movie is about a political accord and mentally controlled assassins and terrorism.. the third act always leave a smile in my face anyways. I think this was a bit over-hyped at start but now it's fairly rated, I mean opinions or not I doubt anyone except in the first week considered Civil War to be better than TDK or TWS...

 

[Dede]

How does it stack compared to X2, Logan and DOFP for you?

I think that Civil War quality is the most fair take on TDKR, both have flaws and some dumb stuff but the highs like the ending, or airport scene are still enough to made you forget about that.

Joker is a tighter and better film for me, and it's not even close.

I love x2 so I have at near tdkr Logan as well. Dofp i like other than mystiques role in it. I’ve also come around to civil war. It’s in my top 3 of mcu. Joker is complex to me because It’s deeper than almost every cbm bar a few yet I don’t think it hits the highs I was hoping for. I guess I wanted more joker in the film but I get why there wasn’t and why people might like it more

 

[shauner111]

I like looking at DaFoe’s face in that movie but it was too over the top for me. Didn’t like the suit design either. Octavius was more subtle (which is what I like) well, except for the “NOOOOOOOOO!” part haha. More sympathetic villain, had a good arc and taught Peter a good lesson. Norman was just a loud moustache twirling villain. But Willem is magnetic in everything so I get it if you like him more.

As for Ultron...nahhh. I think the pacing is bad, action was terrible all around. Don’t remember the ending tbh. Wasn’t a fan of the first Avengers either. But it was less convoluted. Whedon was exhausted and it shows in the sequel.

 

[Neil McCauley]

I love x2 so I have at near tdkr Logan as well. Dofp i like other than mystiques role in it. I’ve also come around to civil war. It’s in my top 3 of mcu. Joker is complex to me because It’s deeper than almost every cbm bar a few yet I don’t think it hits the highs I was hoping for. I guess I wanted more joker in the film but I get why there wasn’t and why people might like it more

Fair enough, I think X2 has aged much better than X1 or DOFP atleast for me. The story is simple and adapted from a good comic and well executed, and the cast is overall great. It's better than Logan, which is incredibly overrated atleast for me.

Joker is a tight and character driven film and a darker one, I think it works well but it isn't for everyone. I think some people don't like it much but can still see the positives about the film and that Phoenix was great in the role.

Civil War is solid and would've been the best MCU film if it was more serious and didn't have Spider-Man and Zemo's plan which is an evident flaw in rewatches.. they could've made the movie only about the accords and it would have been as serious and great as the comic IMO. Still a great film that I have got a lot more appreciation after watching it.

You think TDKR's best stuff is on par with the airport scene, Murray scene or the nightcrawler scene? Which are the best scenes about these films?

 

[Neil McCauley]

I like looking at DaFoe’s face in that movie but it was too over the top for me. Didn’t like the suit design either. Octavius was more subtle (which is what I like) well, except for the “NOOOOOOOOO!” part haha. More sympathetic villain, had a good arc and taught Peter a good lesson. Norman was just a loud moustache twirling villain. But Willem is magnetic in everything so I get it if you like him more.

As for Ultron...nahhh. I think the pacing is bad, action was terrible all around. Don’t remember the ending tbh. Wasn’t a fan of the first Avengers either. But it was less convoluted. Whedon was exhausted and it shows in the sequel.

Doc-Ock was still a good villain and Molina did a good job but yeah I think Norman is better, especially since I like Goblin far more than Ock in comics. He's the personal villain and while not as dark as Joker or Kingpin, still pretty evil and interesting.

How was the action bad? The Hulk vs Hulkbuster fight and opening scene are pretty solid, especially since we finally saw an angry hulk and not the comedy relief that we got in IW and EG. The ending did set up Civil War and showed how the team worked together, and I never got the hype for A1. Always thought it was a good action flick but nothing special except being the first movie done like this. I think Russo's are better than Whedon at action and also at writing characters (except Hulk and Hawkeye) which I preferred with Whedon.

We got CW Iron Man, IW Thor and TWS Cap with Russos...

 

[Dede]

Fair enough, I think X2 has aged much better than X1 or DOFP atleast for me. The story is simple and adapted from a good comic and well executed, and the cast is overall great. It's better than Logan, which is incredibly overrated atleast for me.

Joker is a tight and character driven film and a darker one, I think it works well but it isn't for everyone. I think some people don't like it much but can still see the positives about the film and that Phoenix was great in the role.

Civil War is solid and would've been the best MCU film if it was more serious and didn't have Spider-Man and Zemo's plan which is an evident flaw in rewatches.. they could've made the movie only about the accords and it would have been as serious and great as the comic IMO. Still a great film that I have got a lot more appreciation after watching it.

You think TDKR's best stuff is on par with the airport scene, Murray scene or the nightcrawler scene? Which are the best scenes about these films?

I can get why Logan is overrated. I agree somewhat but I guess I just find it as a great ending so I overlook its other aspects

civi war I think is the best avengers movie if that makes sense. It has the best emotion and stakes in my opinion. Baron zemo really could have been taken out and would improve the film. Or at least incorporate his more classic stuff like his purple mask and the thunderbolts.

I put tdkr opening , ending the first fight between bane ,the pit escape and banes blackgate speech with the best of the best from any cbm. Joker dancing in the bathroom or his bloody smile are the best parts of the joker movie. The final battle in civil war is the best scene of its movie by far for me. For x2 I’d say the lady deathstrike fight of the fight inside the school.

 

[Neil McCauley]

I can get why Logan is overrated. I agree somewhat but I guess I just find it as a great ending so I overlook its other aspects

civi war I think is the best avengers movie if that makes sense. It has the best emotion and stakes in my opinion. Baron zemo really could have been taken out and would improve the film. Or at least incorporate his more classic stuff like his purple mask and the thunderbolts.

I put tdkr opening , ending the first fight between bane ,the pit escape and banes blackgate speech with the best of the best from any cbm. Joker dancing in the bathroom or his bloody smile are the best parts of the joker movie. The final battle in civil war is the best scene of its movie by far for me. For x2 I’d say the lady deathstrike fight of the fight inside the school.

Logan's not even flawed, just not as interesting as other films do. It's carried by two characters that we become attached and did have great acting but the rest is.... meh. The villains were boring and one dimensional, the relationship with the girl feels forced, the ending really didn’t do much narrative-wise, the action scenes were nothing new except Logan jumping like he did in X2 and the third act is a total mess compared to when Professor X was on screen.

I still like it, it's a good film but Mangold has directed a far better film two years later, Ford vs Ferrari. I think Jackman is still the best thing about the film and I liked his character overall.

Yeah, I agree. Zemo had a decent motivation but his acting and plan was a bit convoluted. They should've focused on the accords, but I am fine with Steve's middle act with Bucky that led us to the airport scene. The stakes and motivations are kinda right, but the jokes should've cut off and should have been a bit more violent like the comic was. Still a fun and good action scene I think, but Spider Man totally ruins it because he has nothing to do with the conflict, avengers and he doesn’t even take the battle seriously. It was pure fan-service, meanwhile Black Panther was at his best and well done in that film. I think that Civil War is just a bit below IW but I think the core of the film and the conflict is much better than Thanos' motivations in IW.

I think those scenes were great but TDK's interrogation scene, Steve and Bucky vs Tony, Bruce becoming Batman are on that tier.

 

[Dede]

Logan's not even flawed, just not as interesting as other films do. It's carried by two characters that we become attached and did have great acting but the rest is.... meh. The villains were boring and one dimensional, the relationship with the girl feels forced, the ending really didn’t do much narrative-wise, the action scenes were nothing new except Logan jumping like he did in X2 and the third act is a total mess compared to when Professor X was on screen.

I still like it, it's a good film but Mangold has directed a far better film two years later, Ford vs Ferrari. I think Jackman is still the best thing about the film and I liked his character overall.

Yeah, I agree. Zemo had a decent motivation but his acting and plan was a bit convoluted. They should've focused on the accords, but I am fine with Steve's middle act with Bucky that led us to the airport scene. The stakes and motivations are kinda right, but the jokes should've cut off and should have been a bit more violent like the comic was. Still a fun and good action scene I think, but Spider Man totally ruins it because he has nothing to do with the conflict, avengers and he doesn’t even take the battle seriously. It was pure fan-service, meanwhile Black Panther was at his best and well done in that film. I think that Civil War is just a bit below IW but I think the core of the film and the conflict is much better than Thanos' motivations in IW.

I think those scenes were great but TDK's interrogation scene, Steve and Bucky vs Tony, Bruce becoming Batman are on that tier.

Yeah Logan’s weakest part is easily the villains. I agree with the Spider-Man issues you have. I don’t really like Tom Holland’s Spider-Man that much he annoys me so he was a detriment in civil war.

I have the unpopular opinion that ultron is better than thanos. I don’t find thanos as interesting with his movie motivation and back story. I find ultron more complex and Interesting. I wished ultron wasn’t a one and done I hope he’s brought back

 

[Neil McCauley]

Yeah Logan’s weakest part is easily the villains. I agree with the Spider-Man issues you have. I don’t really like Tom Holland’s Spider-Man that much he annoys me so he was a detriment in civil war.

I have the unpopular opinion that ultron is better than thanos. I don’t find thanos as interesting with his movie motivation and back story. I find ultron more complex and Interesting. I wished ultron wasn’t a one and done I hope he’s brought back

Yeah, I don't like Thanos much at all. I would give him a 7 for some quotes and the cgi. Ultron had some jokes but the voice and character was solid, I had never a "tone" problem with AoU, because I had never watched the trailer. Agreed on Spidey, while I liked him in his solo films, he's not great or interesting in these team-up movies. Raimi’s one is far superior in terms of character

 

[BatLobster]

I'm always torn on Begins vs Rises. Begins definitely deserves credit for laying the foundation for all of it, doing something that had never been done and just overall influence on Hollywood. And that first hour is something really special. On the other hand, Nolan is just cleary such a more confident director of big blockusters with TDKR and it really shows. I just love how big the swings are in Rises. I think it's Bale and Caine's best performances of the trilogy, Zimmer's best score, Wally's best cinematography, and Bane gets a well-earned silver medal for villains in the trilogy from me. I love how Rises does "post-apocalyptic destruction porn" in a way that's aesthetically pleasing and visceral, and not a mindnumbing green screen/CG extravanganza. I mean those shots of the bridges being detonated...I really wish that was never in the trailer, because that moment is jawdropping and terrifying in how real it's presented. Those are miniatures. Moments like that just have not been replicated anywhere else in the genre.

In the end, Rises wins me over with its combination of ambition and raw emotion, but depending on the day that first hour of Begins can always tempt me back over. Regardless though, I've always loved the way the two movies compliment one another. Even though Talia is the least developed villain in the trilogy, I still love her inclusion and the way it directly addresses one of the biggest controversies of Begins-- Bruce killing Ra's. At least whenever I watch that scene now, I don't have to just think about how Bruce is making a very dicey rationalization for breaking his rule, and I know that he will one day pay a hefty price for that decision.

As far as the MCU is...the thing for me is I just never get the urge to rewatch them. I don't own a single one of them, not even the ones I like most- Iron Man, Winter Soldier, Guardians, etc. Maybe one day I'll try to marathon them all and see how I feel. I'd love to be pleasantly surprised and find that I like them more than I thought I did. But as of now, I kinda feel like they were just kind of a moment in time for me, and now it's over.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

I'm always torn on Begins vs Rises. Begins definitely deserves credit for laying the foundation for all of it, doing something that had never been done and just overall influence on Hollywood. And that first hour is something really special. On the other hand, Nolan is just cleary such a more confident director of big blockusters with TDKR and it really shows. I just love how big the swings are in Rises. I think it's Bale and Caine's best performances of the trilogy, Zimmer's best score, Wally's best cinematography, and Bane gets a well-earned silver medal for villains in the trilogy from me. I love how Rises does "post-apocalyptic destruction porn" in a way that's aesthetically pleasing and visceral, and not a mindnumbing green screen/CG extravanganza. I mean those shots of the bridges being detonated...I really wish that was never in the trailer, because that moment is jawdropping and terrifying in how real it's presented. Those are miniatures. Moments like that just have not been replicated anywhere else in the genre.

In the end, Rises wins me over with its combination of ambition and raw emotion, but depending on the day that first hour of Begins can always tempt me back over. Regardless though, I've always loved the way the two movies compliment one another. Even though Talia is the least developed villain in the trilogy, I still love her inclusion and the way it directly addresses one of the biggest controversies of Begins-- Bruce killing Ra's. At least whenever I watch that scene now, I don't have to just think about how Bruce is making a very dicey rationalization for breaking his rule, and I know that he will one day pay a hefty price for that decision.

As far as the MCU is...the thing for me is I just never get the urge to rewatch them. I don't own a single one of them, not even the ones I like most- Iron Man, Winter Soldier, Guardians, etc. Maybe one day I'll try to marathon them all and see how I feel. I'd love to be pleasantly surprised and find that I like them more than I thought I did. But as of now, I kinda feel like they were just kind of a moment in time for me, and now it's over.

I'm the exact same with MCU movies. I'll enjoy them tremendously in the theatre, have fun talking about them with friends for a few days afterward and then never revisit them with the notable exception of the Guardians movies because they have the strongest authorial voice and Thor: Ragnarok because I think it's a legitimate all time great action/comedy.

 

[Neil McCauley]

Begins is far better than Rises, it's not even close.

Stronger performances overall, better cinematography, far better pacing, better soundtrack, stronger ending and a tighter and far better story. TDKR is great but not this good.

 

[BatLobster]

Begins is far better than Rises, it's not even close.

Stronger performances overall, better cinematography, far better pacing, better soundtrack, stronger ending and a tighter and far better story. TDKR is great but not this good.

Disagree on soundtrack, cinematography and ending. Performances are close, but those are consistently good in the trilogy.

 

[Gothamsknight]

I'm always torn on Begins vs Rises. Begins definitely deserves credit for laying the foundation for all of it, doing something that had never been done and just overall influence on Hollywood. And that first hour is something really special. On the other hand, Nolan is just cleary such a more confident director of big blockusters with TDKR and it really shows. I just love how big the swings are in Rises. I think it's Bale and Caine's best performances of the trilogy, Zimmer's best score, Wally's best cinematography, and Bane gets a well-earned silver medal for villains in the trilogy from me. I love how Rises does "post-apocalyptic destruction porn" in a way that's aesthetically pleasing and visceral, and not a mindnumbing green screen/CG extravanganza. I mean those shots of the bridges being detonated...I really wish that was never in the trailer, because that moment is jawdropping and terrifying in how real it's presented. Those are miniatures. Moments like that just have not been replicated anywhere else in the genre.

In the end, Rises wins me over with its combination of ambition and raw emotion, but depending on the day that first hour of Begins can always tempt me back over. Regardless though, I've always loved the way the two movies compliment one another. Even though Talia is the least developed villain in the trilogy, I still love her inclusion and the way it directly addresses one of the biggest controversies of Begins-- Bruce killing Ra's. At least whenever I watch that scene now, I don't have to just think about how Bruce is making a very dicey rationalization for breaking his rule, and I know that he will one day pay a hefty price for that decision.

As far as the MCU is...the thing for me is I just never get the urge to rewatch them. I don't own a single one of them, not even the ones I like most- Iron Man, Winter Soldier, Guardians, etc. Maybe one day I'll try to marathon them all and see how I feel. I'd love to be pleasantly surprised and find that I like them more than I thought I did. But as of now, I kinda feel like they were just kind of a moment in time for me, and now it's over.

Well said! I usually go back and forth for which is better between Begins and Rises and it really all depends on the day for me. The ambitions of Rises, along with the cinematography, set pieces and performances still blow my mind to this day. At the same time, the way Batman Begins fleshes out everything is also just amazing to me as well, so it's always hard for me to settle on which is better overall. That's a testament to how damn incredible that trilogy was.

As for the MCU, I'm in the same boat. I sound like a broken record at this point, but by the time of Civil War I was already burnt out a bit on the MCU. I ended up not rewatching them more than once in the theater honestly, and didn't really have the urge to afterwards. And it's not that I don't think they're good, because i do. I loved Winter Soldier, Iron Man, The Avengers, etc, but I don't get the urge to rewatch them much. Last night i actually popped in Infinity War and Endgame for the first time in over a year and definitely enjoyed watching them, but I never put them on the pedestal other people do and I think it's because the novelty has worn off a bit for me. I forgot about them shortly after I saw them in the cinema, and I think Endgame is the only one I saw twice. I miss the contained stories, such as the TDK trilogy, or the Raimi Spider-Man trilogy without having to worry about connecting things. It seems like going forward, The Batman is gonna be more of a return to form of contained stories and that I'm really excited about.

 

[Neil McCauley]

Disagree on soundtrack, cinematography and ending. Performances are close, but those are consistently good in the trilogy.

What makes you think on that? The cinematography is far better because it's darker and more tonally consistent. The ending is debatable but I prefer how it set up the 2nd film and shows Batman's start. Plus, BB's development and the movie feels about only Batman.

TDKR has more characters and feels more about Gotham. I still like it but no way it's better than BB.

Btw, you should rewatch MCU films some time. I think rewatchability has nothing to do with quality. I can see Shazam or an Avenger movie way more than Goodfellas or Se7en because I want to see them one time so they don’t get ruined by too much watches.