The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - Part 156

[Brother Jack]

FanScription on Channel Awesome did a two-part episode imagining what TDKR would've looked like if it had included The Joker. I have to say, I think they did a pretty good job organically fitting Joker into the existing story. They split the movie into two parts to make room for it, so it definitely changes things. But as far as fan-fiction goes, I think this was pretty well done and didn't go off the rails. You can almost believe that it would've gone something like this, had Heath been around to reprise the role. The direction makes sense, and it keeps the overall trajectory of TDKR largely intact.

I think it's a fun watch:

There are some interesting ideas there, and it smooths out some of the rougher details of the story, but it still suffers I think from what tends to always happen when you put Joker into a story: he takes it over. It's the same problem the Arkham series has had, the same that a lot of Batman stories have. In this treatment, Bruce becomes practically a co-lead by the end, with Joker getting as much of a thematic significance to the resolution as Batman, especially with regards to legacy. But that is the nature of Joker as a character, and why I've always been good with him not being in Rises.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Just re-watching this trilogy after getting the 4K boxset and man do BB and TDK hold up great. Just 2 amazing movies. Rises is next on my list and is a movie I have always liked even if it couldn’t match it’s predecessor (no mean feat considering for me no CBM has since). I am curious to see how Rises holds though as it’s been a while since I watched any of them, TDKR included.

They truly are all amazing movies in my mind. TDKR i find to be very unfairly treated by so many fans.

 

[BatLobster]

There are some interesting ideas there, and it smooths out some of the rougher details of the story, but it still suffers I think from what tends to always happen when you put Joker into a story: he takes it over. It's the same problem the Arkham series has had, the same that a lot of Batman stories have. In this treatment, Bruce becomes practically a co-lead by the end, with Joker getting as much of a thematic significance to the resolution as Batman, especially with regards to legacy. But that is the nature of Joker as a character, and why I've always been good with him not being in Rises.

Oh I totally agree. I do think it would've been too much in a real movie. But as a thought experiment, I think it was fun.

 

[Awest66]

On the FanScription video, I really didn't care for leaving Bruce's fate ambiguous along with the Joker's. In my mind if you include the Alfred's fantasy part, You have to see it through to the end.

 

[BatLobster]

Yeah, very true. The non-ambiguity of the real ending is the best part of it. It still drives me bonkers when people say Bruce should've died or it should've been ambiguous. It totally misses the whole point of the film.

I'll never forget that first screening. During that whole ending montage I literally remember thinking, "if this is left open-ended, this whole movie is ruined." The cut from Alfred nodding to the shot of Bruce and Selina as the score kicks in caused the theater to erupt in applause. Such a glorious ending.

 

[The Batman]

There are some interesting ideas there, and it smooths out some of the rougher details of the story, but it still suffers I think from what tends to always happen when you put Joker into a story: he takes it over. It's the same problem the Arkham series has had, the same that a lot of Batman stories have. In this treatment, Bruce becomes practically a co-lead by the end, with Joker getting as much of a thematic significance to the resolution as Batman, especially with regards to legacy. But that is the nature of Joker as a character, and why I've always been good with him not being in Rises.

I don't think its a given that Joker always takes over a story. Off the top of my head, Batman: The Movie, Lego Batman, The Under the Red Hood movie, Dark Knight Returns and Mask of the Phantasm are examples of how that doesn't need to be true.

I think sometimes, creators are just a bit too in love with The Joker at the expense of everyone else. Especially if they didn't grow up on Batman comics.

 

[Brother Jack]

I don't think its a given that Joker always takes over a story. Off the top of my head, Batman: The Movie, Lego Batman, The Under the Red Hood movie, Dark Knight Returns and Mask of the Phantasm are examples of how that doesn't need to be true.

I think sometimes, creators are just a bit too in love with The Joker at the expense of everyone else. Especially if they didn't grow up on Batman comics.

That's definitely true. I've always thought that Joker needs to be handled carefully in crafting a story, especially within an ensemble, and a lot of the time less is more. I think generally he gets way overused in the whole Batman pantheon, and I'm actually hoping he doesn't show up on film for a while.

 

[BatLobster]

I agree....but I do think Ledger's Joker could've risked overpowering the film, especially with the way FanScription's version played out.

They did a great job of keeping his actions very in-character though. I bought that it's how Joker would've behaved if you dropped that character into TDKR. How it would've played as a film is another story. I think it also needed an explanation for why Bane wouldn't have made sure to kill him while he was still in Arkham.

Again though, cool thought experiment. I loved Joker's new scar story at the end.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Well, I finally finished TDKR on 4K, and I felt it held up the least out of the 3. It’s the middle hour that seems to drag when Batman is in the prison. But man, the first hour and last 30 mins are still something alright, and make up for any flaws.

And those last 5/10 mins leading up to the credits still give me goosebumps even now.

 

[Batmannerism]

Well, I finally finished TDKR on 4K, and I felt it held up the least out of the 3. It’s the middle hour that seems to drag when Batman is in the prison. But man, the hour and last 30 mins are still something alright, and make up for any flaws.

And those last 5/10 mins leading up to the credits still give me goosebumps even now.

I agree with most of that. The middle of the film sags a bit and honestly some of the logic ( or lack thereof - magic knee braces, the cops trapped underground and prison chiropractors) is a bit distracting. Also, once Alfred leaves it just isn't as cool and I didn't like the way he and Bruce parted - with Bruce wallowing in loss and ignoring everything that Alfre had done for him over many years.

Hathaway and Bale had good chemistry. Caine, Oldman and Freeman are brilliant as always. Hardy captured Bane's physical menace and had tons of swagger but the voice just didn't work for me ( especially the muffled speeches).

The whole premise of Batman disappearing, then returning then disappearing again and the returning was a bit much for me - I think Nolan was too ambitious by combining Knightfall with No Mans Land, which are 2 immense and classic B as batman story arcs. TBH if they had just stuck with Knightfall, it would have worked better.
Still I give Nolan made props for having the balls to actually end Batman's story.

All in all there are a lot of great moments but it doesn't hang together in its entirety as well as either Begins or TDK.

The ending montage is glorious though - a
fitting ending for Nolan's hero.

 

[BatLobster]

I get where people are coming from with the Batman disappearing, then returning, then disappearing, then returning again thing but...I think it's overcomplicating something that's pretty simple.

When Batman returns the first time, he's got a death wish. When he returns the second time, he's found the will to live.

There's a very straight forward thematic echo there with how Bruce's arc plays out.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I get where people are coming from with the Batman disappearing, then returning, then disappearing, then returning again thing but...I think it's overcomplicating something that's pretty simple.

When Batman returns the first time, he's on a suicide mission. When he returns the second time, he's found the will to live.

There's a simple poetry to that.

Yeah, I get a lot of what Batmannerism is saying, but that never bothered me, neither did Bane’s voice. My problem with the 2nd act is lack of Batman/Bruce.

 

[BatLobster]

Yeah, I get a lot of what Batmannerism is saying, but that never bothered me, neither did Bane’s voice. My problem with the 2nd act is lack of Batman/Bruce.

Yeah, I get that too. The movie does slow down in the second act, but for whatever reason I find myself really enjoying that section of the film, cause it's sandwiched between some very intense stuff and allows you to catch your breath. The flashbacks to Ra's backstory, Bruce training to escape, Gotham under Bane's rule, Blake/Gordon's underground resistance really give the movie a nice sense of scope and bleakness. It makes you really need to see Bruce prevail, and it all builds to that incredible climb scene.

Appreciate hearing your take on rewatching the movies. Once I get my 4k setup I intend to rewatch the trilogy too. It's been a long time.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Yeah, I get that too. The movie does slow down in the second act, but for whatever reason I find myself really enjoying that section of the film, cause it's sandwiched between some very intense stuff and allows you to catch your breath. The flashbacks to Ra's backstory, Bruce training to escape, Gotham under Bane's rule, Blake/Gordon's underground resistance really give the movie a nice sense of scope and bleakness. It makes you really need to see Bruce prevail, and it all builds to that incredible climb scene.

Appreciate hearing your take on rewatching the movies. Once I get my 4k setup I intend to rewatch the trilogy too. It's been a long time.

I actually like the things you mentioned in the 2nd act. But stuff like the armed forces trying to infiltrate Gotham, Blake visiting the kids and talking to his partner (showed too many times) and the prison breakout scene all just went far too long for me. Same with the court scenes. All could have cut down completely or just cut altogether and the 2nd act would have flowed better IMO.

And yeah, 4K is awesomely, highly recommend it.

 

[Schlosser85]

Overall I like TDKR and think the hate is exaggerated sometimes.

But the middle section with Gotham on lockdown does get pretty clunky and it has kind of an unwieldy narrative structure.

I also have a few problems.

Catwoman and Talia Al Ghul in the same movie limits development for both of them and each's relationship with Bruce/Batman.

Blake should have been better-developed so there's more justification for him replacing Batman at the end, and really Nolan should have just let JGL be Dick Grayson instead of a half-assed kinda sorta not really pseudo-Robin.

Bane mounting this master plan to take over Gotham and then just....hanging out at City Hall for the next five months (?) is kinda lame and also feels like an arbitrary drawn-out deadline to let Batman recover and make his comeback, conveniently just in time to save the day.

I wasn't a big fan of Bane (disappointingly so as I love Tom Hardy). The voice is just ridiculous sometimes (he sounds cheesy as hell in the Blackgate speech scene), and after taking over Gotham the movie doesn't know what to do with him after that. He just hangs out the rest of the movie and then gets a throwaway death as a punchline to a one-liner.

Gordon is not as well-utilized as he was in The Dark Knight. He's just kind of "there", either in the hospital or hiding in JGL's apartment most of the movie and doesn't really do much until the climax.

Michael Caine is actually really good in the few scenes he has, but is also really sidelined and minimized.

That's.....not how repairing a broken back works.

Why exactly is Bane keeping the police alive?

Ben Mendelsohn and Matthew Modine's characters are just cartoonish.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

It’s funny, I just watched Endgame again tonight and it has very, very similar problems to TDKR in that the 2nd act drags too much and has too many useless scenes.

 

[Batmannerism]

I rewatched the trilogy this weekend while doing stuff around the house -

Overall I like TDKR and think the hate is exaggerated sometimes.

But the middle section with Gotham on lockdown does get pretty clunky and it has kind of an unwieldy narrative structure.

I also have a few problems.

Catwoman and Talia Al Ghul in the same movie limits development for both of them and each's relationship with Bruce/Batman.

Blake should have been better-developed so there's more justification for him replacing Batman at the end, and really Nolan should have just let JGL be Dick Grayson instead of a half-assed kinda sorta not really pseudo-Robin.

Bane mounting this master plan to take over Gotham and then just....hanging out at City Hall for the next five months (?) is kinda lame and also feels like an arbitrary drawn-out deadline to let Batman recover and make his comeback, conveniently just in time to save the day.

I wasn't a big fan of Bane (disappointingly so as I love Tom Hardy). The voice is just ridiculous sometimes (he sounds cheesy as hell in the Blackgate speech scene), and after taking over Gotham the movie doesn't know what to do with him after that. He just hangs out the rest of the movie and then gets a throwaway death as a punchline to a one-liner.

Gordon is not as well-utilized as he was in The Dark Knight. He's just kind of "there", either in the hospital or hiding in JGL's apartment most of the movie and doesn't really do much until the climax.

Michael Caine is actually really good in the few scenes he has, but is also really sidelined and minimized.

That's.....not how repairing a broken back works.

Why exactly is Bane keeping the police alive?

Ben Mendelsohn and Matthew Modine's characters are just cartoonish.

YES ! Those are pretty much the problems that I have with the film- Gordon does have some great moments though e.g. the "dirty hands " speech.

Totally agree that JGL could have easily been orphan cop, officer Richard Grayson.

Mendelsohn's death is terrible.

Sadly Bane's voice undoes the Blackgate speech - which on paper IMO is just genius, and could have been Hardy's best supporting actor clip. I still say he got thr physical presence and body language perfect. If Bane didn't talk at all he'd be ducking terrifying. Instead he sounds like a Guy Ritchie villain doing a Darth Vader impression.

Fight choreography wasn't great - guess they couldn't afford Andy and Justo for this one. I did enjoy how brutally Batman got beaten down, but the choreography for that sequence could have been a lot better.

An odd thing is that Bale uses his Bat voice when talking to Selina who knows his identity.

However, unlike some I thought the Bat voice worked in the "Where's the trigger?!" sequence because Batman is incredibly pissed off and desperate, so he should sound a bit ott.

The Talia twist could have been better - I love Marion Cotillard in anything so I'm okay with the character being the film. That she and Bane planned to die in the nuclear blast I thought a bit silly. On the plus side " the slow knife" speech was awesome, her death scene was not so.

Really the dumbest part of all that is that Batman gets a serious stab wound that incapacitated him at first but then he completely ignores - I mean try flying a helicopter with a stab wound ? Well, I guess if it's to stop a nuclear explosion....


On the positive side Bruce's climb to freedom is an even more huge moment than remembered and the score and the cinematography totally sell it. I remember the audience cheering, I certainly did.

Okay, so even flying at 600mph Batman still needed just under a minute to reach safe distance much less get clear himself but lets be honest
Batman's last minute save is still really epic and the final montage is magic, no dialogue necessary at all - the score swells as the Batcave platform rises and as a Batman fan you just feel ****ing awesome.

This movie is still very good, but just has too many cracks in it to be the triumph that TDK was.

It’s funny, I just watched Endgame again tonight and it has very, very similar problems to TDKR in that the 2nd act drags too much and has too many useless scenes.

Yup. Too much crammed in act 2. Again I think it's from trying to adapt too many elements from 2 massive storylines.

I get what Nolan was trying to do with the Tale of Two Cities theme but if he was going that far he really needed 2 movies - The Dark Knight falls and the Dark Knight Rises.

 

[Batmannerism]

I'll never forget that first screening. During that whole ending montage I literally remember thinking, "if this is left open-ended, this whole movie is ruined." The cut from Alfred nodding to the shot of Bruce and Selina as the score kicks in caused the theater to erupt in applause. Such a glorious ending.

You know I always think that the Alfred nod was actually Nolan himself acknowledging the audience through Michael Caine - because Nolan for the most part understood what people who love Batman wanted to see and at the same time how to hook in those who aren't fans. I feel like its Nolan saying " Thank you for coming on the journey, now I'm going to reward you with one of the greatest audience emotional payoffs of all time" which is exactly what he did. Both TDK and TDKR end on such incredible notes, you really come out of thr cinema on a massive high - well I did, and clearly from your post you did too.

I heard a story that when he started working on Begins he also had that exact ending in mind , if it isn't true it ought to be.

 

[Awest66]

Sadly Bane's voice undoes the Blackgate speech - which on paper IMO is just genius, and could have been Hardy's best supporting actor clip. I still say he got thr physical presence and body language perfect. If Bane didn't talk at all he'd be ducking terrifying. Instead he sounds like a Guy Ritchie villain doing a Darth Vader impression.

I could not disagree more. Bane's voice doesn't take away from the scene or undermine it in any way for me. When it comes to villain performances, There can be good over the top and bad over the top. Bane is absolutely an example of the former to me. I can;t imagine this version of the character sounding any differently.

Fight choreography wasn't great - guess they couldn't afford Andy and Justo for this one. I did enjoy how brutally Batman got beaten down, but the choreography for that sequence could have been a lot better.

Honestly, I'd say it's about on par with the first two movies in the trilogy, maybe a little better. The sewer fight scene was absolute perfection though, there is nothing about it I'd change at all.

An odd thing is that Bale uses his Bat voice when talking to Selina who knows his identity.

He did it to Lucius Fox in the Dark Knight.

The Talia twist could have been better - I love Marion Cotillard in anything so I'm okay with the character being the film. That she and Bane planned to die in the nuclear blast I thought a bit silly. On the plus side " the slow knife" speech was awesome, her death scene was not so.

I don't think she and Bane intended to die in the nuclear blast though. "When Gotham is in ashes, You'll have my permission to die" that very much implies that he'll be there to give it.

I get what Nolan was trying to do with the Tale of Two Cities theme but if he was going that far he really needed 2 movies - The Dark Knight falls and the Dark Knight Rises.

I once again disagree. I think BatLobsterRises covered this in a previous post but to split the movie into two parts would mean Bruce would either spend most of the second movie in the prison pit or travelling the world to get back to Gotham. Either way, Bruce wouldn't have much to do for most of the second movie. More NML stuff would've been nice to see but if you made an entire second movie about it, It really wouldn't be a Batman movie anymore.

 

[Batmannerism]

I could not disagree more. Bane's voice doesn't take away from the scene or undermine it in any way for me. When it comes to villain performances, There can be good over the top and bad over the top. Bane is absolutely an example of the former to me. I can;t imagine this version of the character sounding any differently.



Honestly, I'd say it's about on par with the first two movies in the trilogy, maybe a little better. The sewer fight scene was absolute perfection though, there is nothing about it I'd change at all.



He did it to Lucius Fox in the Dark Knight.



I don't think she and Bane intended to die in the nuclear blast though. "When Gotham is in ashes, You'll have my permission to die" that very much implies that he'll be there to give it.



I once again disagree. I think BatLobsterRises covered this in a previous post but to split the movie into two parts would mean Bruce would either spend most of the second movie in the prison pit or travelling the world to get back to Gotham. Either way, Bruce wouldn't have much to do for most of the second movie. More NML stuff would've been nice to see but if you made an entire second movie about it, It really wouldn't be a Batman movie anymore.

Okay. Most of that is opinion, so agree to disagree there - some people liked Bane's voice, some didn't fair enough.

Yeah, Bale did the Bat voice to Fox in TDK , and it was weird then too. In fact in TDK when he chokes out Harvey Dent he almost does the Bat voice to Rachel ( another person who knows the secret). I find that weird, but that's just my opinion- though I know plenty of others also found the Bale Bat voice a bit much.

As for the fight choreography- again, your opinion, but really ? There are two fights where a bad guy falls down for no reason - the roof top fight and the fight where Batman saves Blake. Bane does a jumping punch that obviously misses Batman, who then falls down. The final fight between Batman and Bane doesn't look like 2 trained ninjas - which is what Batman is supposed to be - but 2 amateur boxers slugging it out. What makes those fights work at all is the physical intensity Tom Hardy brings to the role - but choreography wise I don't feel like they are as good as either previous film.
Anyway, that's a matter of opinion- but I'm saying there are arguments to be made that the fight sin TDKR are not as good - maybe Nolan was under a lot of time pressure during editing.


As for Bane and Talia dying in the blast, that's a bit harder to debate given that Talia triggers the bomb right in front of Batman and then is surprised when it doesn't explode, which is why Bats gets in his " Maybe the knife was too slow" quip.

She also left Bane to guard Batman and says " Don't kill him, I want him to feel the heat." She then strokes Bane's mask and says goodbye my friend - what does that imply to you ?

Given that they didn't appear to have any flying vehicles capable of getting to safe distance ( and remember, only one bridge route out , which the cops were guarding) it doesn't look like they had an escape plan- again, what inference can you draw from that ?

We can agree to disagree on this, but I suggest the facts as presented in the film are on my side in this case.

 

[Awest66]

As for the fight choreography- again, your opinion, but really ? There are two fights where a bad guy falls down for no reason - the roof top fight and the fight where Batman saves Blake. Bane does a jumping punch that obviously misses Batman, who then falls down. The final fight between Batman and Bane doesn't look like 2 trained ninjas - which is what Batman is supposed to be - but 2 amateur boxers slugging it out. What makes those fights work at all is the physical intensity Tom Hardy brings to the role - but choreography wise I don't feel like they are as good as either previous film.
Anyway, that's a matter of opinion- but I'm saying there are arguments to be made that the fight sin TDKR are not as good - maybe Nolan was under a lot of time pressure during editing.

Honestly, the guys falling down really isn't that big a deal in the grand scheme of things (You'd really have to look at it closely to even notice so it's not like it sticks out like a sore thumb). The fights between Batman and Bane in the sewers doesn't need to be an elaborately choreographed dance-off, just a brutal fight where Batman goes up against a physically superior adversary and gets completely dominated and it delivered beautifully.

As for Bane and Talia dying in the blast, that's a bit harder to debate given that Talia triggers the bomb right in front of Batman and then is surprised when it doesn't explode, which is why Bats gets in his " Maybe the knife was too slow" quip.

I never said they weren't willing to die, just that it wasn't there original intent. They didn't intend to die in the explosion but new they had to once it became clear Bruce had returned.

 

[Batmannerism]

Honestly, the guys falling down really isn't that big a deal in the grand scheme of things (You'd really have to look at it closely to even notice so it's not like it sticks out like a sore thumb). The fights between Batman and Bane in the sewers doesn't need to be an elaborately choreographed dance-off, just a brutal fight where Batman goes up against a physically superior adversary and gets completely dominated and it delivered beautifully.

Honestly, I noticed in the cinema - I won a competition to see the film in it's very first showing down here, about 2 days before most of the world. Don't get me wrong, I had a great time, but it wasn't hard to spot bad guys falling down just inside the shot for no reason.

As for choreography - well it doesn't have to be a dance off or the Matrix - IMO the single best ever fist fight scene is in the Bourne Ultimatum, Bourne vs Desh. The combatants show skill but it's still brutal and not at all dance like. Buster Reeves did the fight arranging for TDKR rather than Dave Forman ( Batman Begins ) and Andy and Justo ( the KFM guys) consulted on TDK. Guess Buster's fight choreography didn't work for me - too much of a slugfest

I never said they weren't willing to die, just that it wasn't there original intent. They didn't intend to die in the explosion but new they had to once it became clear Bruce had returned.

And you base those assumptions on what ?

Dude, does the fact that neither Bane nor Talia ever mentioned any kind of escape plan not imply that they didn't have one ? Sorry that's a lot of negatives.

Do they ever discuss their original intent, or changing it ? Nope.

Dude, going on what we saw on the screen it looked like it was their plan all along. I mean they were both at city hall and showed no sign of leaving, even before Bruce lit the bridge Bat signal.

I'm trying hard not to be rude or patronizing but unless you've got some evidence from the film or a trusty source ( like Christopher Nolan ) I think your view of the facts is unsupportable.

Cheers.

 

[Awest66]

And you base those assumptions on what ?

"When Gotham is in ashes, Then you'll have my permission to die" Doesn't sound like someone who's intending to die. As for how they planned to get out, Bane could've very easily commandeered a tumbler to blast his way out.

 

[Batmannerism]

"When Gotham is in ashes, Then you'll have my permission to die" Doesn't sound like someone who's intending to die. As for how they planned to get out, Bane could've very easily commandeered a tumbler to blast his way out.

To outrun a nuclear blast ? This is getting ridiculous. Already agreed to disagree- let's just move on. At least one thing we can agree on is that we both enjoyed the film.

 

[Brother Jack]

About the five month wait, it has as much to do with Bane's torture of Gotham as it does with keeping in the pattern set by Ra's and Joker of their schemes revolving around the city and its people destroying themselves, or at least having the appearance thereof. Ra's releases the fear toxin so that the city would "tear itself apart", Joker rigs up several games to get the people to "eat each other", and Bane creates an illusion of social revolution with an "ordinary citizen" as the triggerman so that the city would appear to internally destroy itself to the outside world. None of these villains are the type to nuke Gotham from orbit. Their plans are much more nuanced and layered than that.