The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - Part 156

[BatLobster]

I watched TDKR for the first time in years the other night and couldn't help but compare it to what we know of so far regarding the new film coming next year. With The Batman's marketing campaign about to get dialled up a notch as it's release date is fast approaching, I couldn't help but wonder why Nolan opted for Bane as the film's primary antagonist, rather than The Riddler.

TDKR partly deals with the fallout from Harvey Dent's actions in the previous film. Matt Revees seems to be using The Riddler to expose a dark secret that's being kept from the general public of Gotham. I think The Riddler could have easily been used in TDKR to expose the cover up for Dent's crimes, being a more natural fit for TDKR than Bane.

From the looks of it, Paul Dano's Riddler is the closest we'll get to a Nolanverse Riddler.

I think it comes down to the fact that Nolan intentionally wanted to make a different film.

As much as I would've loved to see his Riddler, I think he simply didn't want to make a second straight film with a villain who plays "games" and sets death traps, etc. It does feel feel a bit repetitive of what Nolan did with Joker. I think Bane being a physical threat, and bringing in a militaristic sort of presence simply fit the vision for how Nolan wanted to concluded his trilogy (bigger in scale, war/disaster film) better than The Riddler.

On top of that, leaving the Riddler unused in film for decades gave Reeves the opening to lead with him as the main villain for his first film and have it feel exciting. Plus he's going full noir/detective with the film and it makes sense. Win/win all around IMO.

The thing I can say so far that Nolan and Reeves have in common is I think they chose villains that organically fit the stories they want to tell.

 

[Awest66]

Seeing a lot of slander for these films on cbm twitter lately. It's a damn shame.

Shiny new toy syndrome. It's how fandoms work. There's been a ton of lists on the web ripping on these movies as well (Top Ten things Christopher Nolan got wrong about Batman, Top 10 things Gotham does better than TDK trilogy etc.)

When the Batman comes out, I fully expect there to be discourse about how it's "The Dark Knight sequel we should have gotten" mostly because the villain is the Riddler.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Shiny new toy syndrome. It's how fandoms work. There's been a ton of lists on the web ripping on these movies as well (Top Ten things Christopher Nolan got wrong about Batman, Top 10 things Gotham does better than TDK trilogy etc.)

When the Batman comes out, I fully expect there to be discourse about how it's "The Dark Knight sequel we should have gotten" mostly because the villain is the Riddler.

Hell, I'm seeing people saying "it looks better than The Dark Knight ever did". Look, The Batman is easily my most hyped comic book film in years and I think it's gonna be incredible, but people should set expectations just to be realistic. When I was a teen, I'd always think something was "the greatest" thing ever before I even saw it and quickly learned that's not healthy. My hype for The Batman is through the roof, but again, expectations are important for everything.

 

[Rick190293]

It'll be too early to say "it's the greatest cmb movie ever" even one day before premiere. You have to see it first. We all better remember this (myself included).
Now that's easy? Definitely not lol. I was excited for The Batman before, but now the hype is getting realy huge.

 

[Gothamsknight]

It'll be too early to say "it's the greatest cmb movie ever" even one day before premiere. You have to see it first. We all better remember this (myself included).
Now that's easy? Definitely not lol. I was excited for The Batman before, but now the hype is getting realy huge.

haha exactly. It makes zero sense to assume anything is the best until it is watched.

 

[The Batman]

When the Batman comes out, I fully expect there to be discourse about how it's "The Dark Knight sequel we should have gotten" mostly because the villain is the Riddler.

Lol, we just got a post similar to this sentiment in this very thread.

 

[BatLobster]

I have no reason to think The Batman is going to disappoint, it really seems to be a strong and specific vision with all the right pieces in place. I can't wait to see it.

That said, I still think at the end of the day "GOAT" becomes very subjective with this genre, unless you're talking about the influence and cultural place a film carves out, in which case it takes years for that to become truly apparent.

My thing is, and this is just my feeling, but I think The Batman being SO influenced by film noir could be a double-edged thing. To me, Burton's Batman and Nolan's Batman are these unique entries in cinema. They're a hodgepodge of lots of different influences and genres, filtered through a lens of an auteur, and you get these really unique films that don't quite feel like other noir films or other action films. They exist in their own space. The darker area of the superhero genre, I guess. But they have that larger than life quality, both in their own way.

For me, so far The Batman feels very directly like it's Se7en done as a Batman film. Which don't get me wrong, is really awesome and should make for a great movie. But it doesn't feel original or groundbreaking IMO. It feels a bit familiar. So far, it doesn't give me that sense of awe that I think this character and genre can achieve. It looks more like it's going to be a good film noir entry done as a Batman film. And don't get me wrong, there is absolutely a place for that with Batman (hello Long Halloween). The character has roots in pulp noir. I'm just not sure if something that's taking such a strong influence from one specific style of film is going to be able to have the same level of impact in the long run. But we shall see. I definitely believe the passion for the character is there with Reeves so that can go a long way.

 

[Gothamsknight]

I have no reason to think The Batman is going to disappoint, it really seems to be a strong and specific vision with all the right pieces in place. I can't wait to see it.

That said, I still think at the end of the day "GOAT" becomes very subjective with this genre, unless you're talking about the influence and cultural place a film carves out, in which case it takes years for that to become truly apparent.

My thing is, and this is just my feeling, but I think The Batman being SO influenced by film noir could be a double-edged thing. To me, Burton's Batman and Nolan's Batman are these unique entries in cinema. They're a hodgepodge of lots of different influences and genres, filtered through a lens of an auteur, and you get these really unique films that don't quite feel like other noir films or other action films. They exist in their own space. The darker area of the superhero genre, I guess. But they have that larger than life quality, both in their own way.

For me, so far The Batman feels very directly like it's Se7en done as a Batman film. Which don't get me wrong, is really awesome and should make for a great movie. But it doesn't feel original or groundbreaking IMO. It feels a bit familiar. So far, it doesn't give me that sense of awe that I think this character and genre can achieve. It looks more like it's going to be a good film noir entry done as a Batman film. And don't get me wrong, there is absolutely a place for that with Batman (hello Long Halloween). The character has roots in pulp noir. I'm just not sure if something that's taking such a strong influence from one specific style of film is going to be able to have the same level of impact in the long run. But we shall see.

I think part of the issue today is that The Batman is being released in a time where so much has been done already. The burton films and Nolan movies were released at the perfect time in their eras so it'll be interesting to see what this film does and it's impact on the genre come March. I trust Matt Reeves and I have total and complete faith in him. It's tough to do something original in the genre these days.

 

[BatLobster]

I think part of the issue today is that The Batman is being released in a time where so much has been done already. The burton films and Nolan movies were released at the perfect time in their eras so it'll be interesting to see what this film does and it's impact on the genre come March. I trust Matt Reeves and I have total and complete faith in him. It's tough to do something original in the genre these days.

Absolutely, what I said wasn't meant as a knock against Reeves or the film, but it's exactly like you said. This isn't a Batman film being made in 1989 or 2005, it's being made in a very different world that's taken in exponentially more superhero content and even just a lot more Batman content when you factor in all the animation, video games, TV shows, etc. It's just facing a different uphill battle than previous films were. I think the challenge of previous films was, "Can you get an audience to take Batman, a comic book character, seriously?" I think both Burton and Nolan had to deal with that to an extent, washing away the stigma of the 60s show and then the Schumacher films. Burton was more about establishing a darker, more brooding tone, and Nolan was more about getting the audience to invest in the possibility that he could actually exist.

Well by now we know the answer is clearly yes all-around, so I think the challenge Reeves has is making something that both builds upon and stands out from previous versions, while going all-in on the fact that we already know audiences will buy-in. Which will possibly lead to this being the darkest/most serious version yet. I think the direction he's going in makes a lot of sense. I have practically 0 doubt that it's going to make for a good movie. It's really just a question of how it's all going to come together and what's that impact going to be. I'm excited to find out.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Absolutely, what I said wasn't meant as a knock against Reeves or the film, but it's exactly like you said. This isn't a Batman film being made in 1989 or 2005, it's being made in a very different world that's taken in exponentially more superhero content and even just a lot more Batman content when you factor in all the animation, video games, TV shows, etc. It's just facing a different uphill battle than previous films were. I think the challenge of previous films was, "Can you get an audience to take Batman, a comic book character, seriously?" I think both Burton and Nolan had to deal with that to an extent, washing away the stigma of the 60s show and then the Schumacher films. Burton was more about establishing a darker, more brooding tone, and Nolan was more about getting the audience to invest in the possibility that he could actually exist.

Well by now we know the answer is clearly yes all-around, so I think the challenge Reeves has is making something that both builds upon and stands out from previous versions, while going all-in on the fact that we already know audiences will buy-in. Which will possibly lead to this being the darkest/most serious version yet. I think the direction he's going in makes a lot of sense. I have practically 0 doubt that it's going to make for a good movie. It's really just a question of how it's all going to come together and what's that impact going to be. I'm excited to find out.

Well said and I completely agree. I honestly think the mystery of how its going to fit into the genre today is what's so exciting. I have no doubt Reeves is aware of the CBM landscape today, and obviously what's been done. Reeves is so talented and I've heard numerous times that he won't make a film unless he truly believes in a story he's telling. That's the best kind of person to have for an undertaking like this.

 

[Rick190293]

This noir direction wasn't what I was expecting, specially cause the realistic approach was already well stablished by Nolan. IMO, the more fantasy aspect of the Bat universe hasn't been fully explored in movies. Snyder only scratched it, and failed in the execution even with some good elements. Ben's Batman had a lot of potential, including finally showing some Bat family, but it all felt down like we know.
But there's no way you can ignore Reeves passion for this project, and the fact that is going to be something really different and special. Maybe they can even get to the fantastical side with a Mr Freeze, Poison Ivy, who knows?

 

[BatLobster]

This noir direction wasn't what I was expecting, specially cause the realistic approach was already well stablished by Nolan. IMO, the more fantasy aspect of the Bat universe hasn't been fully explored in movies. Snyder only scratched it, and failed in the execution even with some good elements. Ben's Batman had a lot of potential, including finally showing some Bat family, but it all felt down like we know.
But there's no way you can ignore Reeves passion for this project, and the fact that is going to be something really different and special. Maybe they can even get to the fantastical side with a Mr Freeze, Poison Ivy, who knows?

I agree, I feel like a Grant Morrison influenced Batman movie could be something. Something that really embraced the fantasy/adventure side. Actual Lazarus Pits, huge Batcave with all the bells and whistles, etc. I just think from a visual standpoint alone that type of Batman movie could be a real blast. I think if they ever do Ra's al Ghul on film again that would make sense as the direction to go in.

Well said and I completely agree. I honestly think the mystery of how its going to fit into the genre today is what's so exciting. I have no doubt Reeves is aware of the CBM landscape today, and obviously what's been done. Reeves is so talented and I've heard numerous times that he won't make a film unless he truly believes in a story he's telling. That's the best kind of person to have for an undertaking like this.

Oh yeah, regardless of how I feel about the final product, I take comfort in knowing the project is being approached by someone who is clearly talented, passionate about storytelling and understands the task at hand. That's about all you can ask for.

 

[Green Goblin]

The film noir feel already differentiates itself from other CBMs next year.

All Marvel Studios films have the same tone and Black Adam / The Flash looks like they will also be more akin to Marvel's fun, comic booky tone than than the desaturated gritty feel of the Snyder DC era.

 

[Brother Jack]

It is ironic to me that after Nolan's take received some criticism from certain people for its verisimilitude we're now getting something that seems to be even more grounded and "realistic" (loathed as I am to use that word) than what Nolan was doing. I had thought the pendulum would swing the other way and the next iteration would be more fantastical. Technically Snyder's Batman was that, but it still felt limited in a way. He never really got to interact with his own villains, or with his Gotham as a whole. Reeves is already widening the scope with the number of characters in his film, but I doubt we'll be seeing Man-bat or Clayface.

 

[BatLobster]

It is ironic to me that after Nolan's take received some criticism from certain people for its verisimilitude we're now getting something that seems to be even more grounded and "realistic" (loathed as I am to use that word) than what Nolan was doing. I had thought the pendulum would swing the other way and the next iteration would be more fantastical. Technically Snyder's Batman was that, but it still felt limited in a way. He never really got to interact with his own villains, or with his Gotham as a whole. Reeves is already widening the scope with the number of characters in his film, but I doubt we'll be seeing Man-bat or Clayface.

Well, to be fair regardless of the gripes in the fan community about realism, it was a wildly successful take on the character with the mainstream. So it's not totally surprising to me. Even when Affleck was supposed to direct it, I was expecting another grounded take on it based on his other work.

Now WB is kind of going to have its cake and eat it too with a new gritty reboot launching at the same time as we get a returning Keaton in a time traveling multiverse story.

 

[Brother Jack]

Well, to be fair regardless of the gripes in the fan community about realism, it was a wildly successful take on the character with the mainstream. So it's not totally surprising to me. Even when Affleck was supposed to direct it, I was expecting another grounded take on it based on his other work.

Now WB is kind of going to have its cake and eat it too with a new gritty reboot launching at the same time as we get a returning Keaton in a time traveling multiverse story.

True. Reeves' film looks amazing, but I do think it could potentially catch some flack from people saying it is too similar to what Nolan did. As much as it will also inevitably make others look down on TDKT. Any new iteration is going to color one's perception of what came before, for good or ill.

 

[Gothamsknight]

The Nolan trilogy has already been "degraded" on twitter tbh. from being called not a REAL Batman adaption, to not being faithful to the characters, to looking TOO cinematic, etc. It's a shame how people are completely disregarding the cultural impact TDK trilogy had. But, that's what happens when 16 year old kids hop on Twitter and try to rewrite history. and in that same breath, they claim BVS is misunderstoof.

As for The Batman, I could potentially see it being compared to the Nolan trilogy in tone but I firmly believe Reeves is aiming for something very different than what we've seen, and that'll be even more apparent in the next trailer. The Batman, to me, seems like it'll be even more grounded and realistic than Nolans take and far darker too. A living nightmare, so to speak.

 

[BatLobster]

to looking TOO cinematic, etc.

 

[Gothamsknight]

My sentiments exactly!

 

[Rick190293]

Can't wait to see TDK trilogy getting bashed after next Battinson's trailer

 

[shauner111]

I have no reason to think The Batman is going to disappoint, it really seems to be a strong and specific vision with all the right pieces in place. I can't wait to see it.

That said, I still think at the end of the day "GOAT" becomes very subjective with this genre, unless you're talking about the influence and cultural place a film carves out, in which case it takes years for that to become truly apparent.

My thing is, and this is just my feeling, but I think The Batman being SO influenced by film noir could be a double-edged thing. To me, Burton's Batman and Nolan's Batman are these unique entries in cinema. They're a hodgepodge of lots of different influences and genres, filtered through a lens of an auteur, and you get these really unique films that don't quite feel like other noir films or other action films. They exist in their own space. The darker area of the superhero genre, I guess. But they have that larger than life quality, both in their own way.

For me, so far The Batman feels very directly like it's Se7en done as a Batman film. Which don't get me wrong, is really awesome and should make for a great movie. But it doesn't feel original or groundbreaking IMO. It feels a bit familiar. So far, it doesn't give me that sense of awe that I think this character and genre can achieve. It looks more like it's going to be a good film noir entry done as a Batman film. And don't get me wrong, there is absolutely a place for that with Batman (hello Long Halloween). The character has roots in pulp noir. I'm just not sure if something that's taking such a strong influence from one specific style of film is going to be able to have the same level of impact in the long run. But we shall see. I definitely believe the passion for the character is there with Reeves so that can go a long way.

TDK took from Heat. Begins has a basic superhero origin outline. A narrated character study/detective Batman is pretty groundbreaking and new. Just because there’s rain and a serial killer it doesn’t mean it’s just gonna be Seven featuring Batman.

 

[Pennywise]

 

[Brother Jack]

Man I wish I had $230 I could drop.

 

[Gothamsknight]

I haven't bought any lego sets since like 2004, but that is super cool.

 

[BatLobster]

WB is re-uploading some older trailers in 4k.