The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - Part 156

[Mani-Man]

I actually rewatched Man of Steel fairly recently because my brother really wanted to see it and while it's not as bad as I remembered it being, It still really rubs me the wrong way as a Superman fan in quite a few ways.

-The pointlessly overlong war scene on Krypton

-Clark is an extremely passive protagonist who barely even speaks

-Lois Lane is reduced to a generic love interest.

-Jonathan Kent is confusingly written (says Clark must keep his powers secret even at the expense of people's lives but then says Clark will change the wolrd)

-Jor-El makes it a big point to say Clark is Kryptons first natural birth in centuries and thus is free to choose his own path but also tells him he's basically laid out Clark's entire life for him.

-The Tornado scene

-Clark throws Zod into populated areas

-Metropolis getting thoroughly totaled because Superman doesn't bother to try and move Zod out of the city.

-Superman killing Zod plays out like an afterthought because, That's basically exactly what it was.

Damn good Trailers though.

Yup, those are some of the more obvious annoyance of the movie.
I find myself throwing it in once in a while and i keep getting upset over the same things because somehow i hope that during watching, the same problems of the movie would suddenly vanish.
But no, still there and still annoying.

Nolanfy Superman is a interesting concept, but you needed for that a talent like Nolan or anybody close to his level...which Snyder certainly is not.

 

[Brother Jack]

My biggest issue with Man of Steel is it's overall feeling of bleakness that Snyder tends to love. No Superman movie should be that bleak and almost depressing. It's not a bad movie, and not Snyders worst, but it's just far too serious. The actors were great, and i think Michael Shannon was a great Zod, and I like Cavill as Superman, but It's almost as if they were ashamed of the bright colors Superman is associated with. I could have forgiven Superman also being super serious in this movie too if it was corrected as part of his development, but instead of making a proper sequel, we got the abomination known as BVS which is due to Snyders relentless attempt at deconstructing Superman through all 3 of his on screen appearances.

I honestly don't think Superman as a character works within Snyder's worldview. He just doesn't understand him on a fundamental level. It's why Clark is such a passenger within his own story. Snyder can't reconcile this guy as a godlike super-being and as a humble, morally upstanding guy from the midwest, so he has very little agency in any of the three films, even in his origin movie. He's not really a human being, instead almost a blank slate of a videogame protagonist used as a device to explore the other characters and world around him. I've never thought Cavill was the problem; it was always the writing and direction.

 

[Gothamsknight]

I honestly don't think Superman as a character works within Snyder's worldview. He just doesn't understand him on a fundamental level. It's why Clark is such a passenger within his own story. Snyder can't reconcile this guy as a godlike super-being and as a humble, morally upstanding guy from the midwest, so he has very little agency in any of the three films, even in his origin movie. He's not really a human being, instead almost a blank slate of a videogame protagonist used as a device to explore the other characters and world around him. I've never thought Cavill was the problem; it was always the writing and direction.

Yup, well said. And it's a shame too because there was a good Superman movie to make with Cavill but I do feel that time has past. I know Matthew Vaughn wanted to do a Superman film, and id still like to see it but I doubt it happens.

 

[Ryan]

Waiting for that trailer all night long is my favorite moment of all the years reading and posting on this forum. I will never forget it.

The hype over Heath's performance was incredible, and apart from a couple of pictures, and his dialogue in the teaser, we had nothing else. Then comes a leaked version a couple of hours before the official release of the trailer and nobody and i mean nobody could abstain from watching.

The realization that all the hype was real, that Heath had hit it out of the park, that this film would blow not only Batman Begins, but every comic book film out of the water...it was a dream come true.

Even after 13+ years, i still can't believe how big the hype was, and yet Nolan and co. managed to surpass it.

It's been so long but I think what they call the second trailer (the first was the teaser) was released during the viral campaign. I want to believe it was on a Sunday night on a website called atasteforthetheatrical.com Such an amazing time

 

[Reek]

Why So Serious? Redux

never forget lol

 

[Gothamsknight]

Why So Serious? Redux

never forget lol

I feel bad for anybody who wasn't able to experience the hype for this film. It feels so long ago, but I haven't forgotten any of it.

 

[Blade Hoarder]

The problem with man of steel goes much deeper than what has been stated. The movie fumbles its most important dramatic moment. Which is when Kal El is forced to choose between Earth and his race.

The scene flops like a fish because it’s not much of a choice. Either for Kal El or the audience. The movie barely justifies why Clark would choose Kryptonity over humanity. If you had the same experience as Superman growing up of course you would choose humanity.

a better director would’ve made this a difficult choice. But alas we were graced with Snyder.

 

[shauner111]

The problem is every time Snyder puts his heroes in a pickle, you end up scratching your head like "huh?? Why didn't he just choose the other option...it looks easy enough of a decision?". Like Clark not saving his father in MOS. Or snapping Zod's neck which I still have no problem with but it's all in the shot selection. Like wouldn't you show a family gripping on for dear life with zero way to escape the room? Instead there's this giant opening and you're like ummm couldn't they just move? Or couldn't Superman move his neck? Or the tornado where it's like geez Clark could have saved the dog and his dad if he snuck through the side lmao. It's just silly and it takes the impact away, all because the scene isn't staged correctly. It's quite frustrating because I still enjoy the movie but there's no emotional weight outside of the score.

 

[Ryan]

Why So Serious? Redux

never forget lol

Ahh yes. That site was made by forum member that may or may not belong here anymore. Took me about 2 years to find all the items from that campaign but was able to secure everything which was a campaign in itself. It was quite a time to be a member here and share experiences.

As for Mos, yes the multitude of problems with the film are simply too many for me to rehash. I've often been at odds with Snyder fans who seem to think that the characters HAD to act in a certain way as if they had no choice. They tend to forget that there was a director at the helm of this and other projects and he and the writers choose the decisions that these characters would make in any given situation.

Anyways, on a more positive note, it looks like the new Batman movie may have a little viral campaign going on so it will be interesting to see what they will come up with.

 

[Reek]

I was here.... my username was Cory back then.

Anita18 made it i believe

 

[Ryan]

I was here.... my username was Cory back then.

Anita18 made it i believe

Yep! Anita18. Really cool person. Hope she's doing well.

 

[Herofan]

-Jor-El makes it a big point to say Clark is Kryptons first natural birth in centuries and thus is free to choose his own path but also tells him he's basically laid out Clark's entire life for him.

LOL, I think he was just encouraging him to (openly) help people, be the kind of hero figure he was in other versions-which made it more puzzling and disappointing that Clark was so passive/reactive.

i think Michael Shannon was a great Zod

Shannon seemed to be trying a little too hard, especially in the beginning, to be, come off as the new Joker (in order to be praised as that).

I honestly don't think Superman as a character works within Snyder's worldview. He just doesn't understand him on a fundamental level. It's why Clark is such a passenger within his own story. Snyder can't reconcile this guy as a godlike super-being and as a humble, morally upstanding guy from the midwest, so he has very little agency in any of the three films, even in his origin movie. He's not really a human being, instead almost a blank slate of a videogame protagonist used as a device to explore the other characters and world around him. I've never thought Cavill was the problem; it was always the writing and direction.

It seems to me most reboot origin stories fail because of struggling between being too different or to the same as previous versions.

 

[J.Drangal]

I honestly don't think Superman as a character works within Snyder's worldview. He just doesn't understand him on a fundamental level. It's why Clark is such a passenger within his own story. Snyder can't reconcile this guy as a godlike super-being and as a humble, morally upstanding guy from the midwest, so he has very little agency in any of the three films, even in his origin movie. He's not really a human being, instead almost a blank slate of a videogame protagonist used as a device to explore the other characters and world around him. I've never thought Cavill was the problem; it was always the writing and direction.

I once read something that stucked for me : Snyder was more interested in "Kal-El, the last son of Krypton" than "Clark Kent, the farm boy form Kansas".

I do think the character, in MOS, was treated like if he was that supreme being just arriving on our planet and trying to fit. But that's not Superman. Martian Mahunter maybe, I don't know. But Superman grew on Earth, he doesn't need to try to fit. You can sure have him being doubtful, but only as a reaction to the world pressuring him (like intended in BvS). You can't have that from the start, it should never had been a character trait like here. And I'm no purist, I like reinvention, but what was presented in this take just never really (or fully) worked.

The fact the script didn't offer many lines to Cavill also made the problem worse, with his Clark almost systematically coming off as disconnected with those around him. I still feel to this day like I don't really know who he is at the end of his movie... And you can't just use the actor (undeniable) charm to hide that, it's not enough.
By the way, about the casting, if on paper everyone seems like good choices, I really think Cavill, Adams, and even Lane lacked chemistry together. This prevented the performances to make up for the fragile writing (an opinion I share about Bale and Hatawhay in TDKR to come back to the subject ).
As said some post above, the music was welcome to energize the drama a bit. Zimmer contribution is probably what I take away the most from the film, parts of which I think can stand on their own without the context of the film.

 

[I Am The Knight]

Waiting for that trailer all night long is my favorite moment of all the years reading and posting on this forum. I will never forget it.

The hype over Heath's performance was incredible, and apart from a couple of pictures, and his dialogue in the teaser, we had nothing else. Then comes a leaked version a couple of hours before the official release of the trailer and nobody and i mean nobody could abstain from watching.

The realization that all the hype was real, that Heath had hit it out of the park, that this film would blow not only Batman Begins, but every comic book film out of the water...it was a dream come true.

Even after 13+ years, i still can't believe how big the hype was, and yet Nolan and co. managed to surpass it.

I remember that night. Man, that was a special time. I wish I could get that kind of hype for The Batman.

 

[Ryan]

I remember that night. Man, that was a special time. I wish I could get that kind of hype for The Batman.

I believe they have started some sort of viral campaign involving the Riddler.

 

[I Am The Knight]

I believe they have started some sort of viral campaign involving the Riddler.

That makes sense.

 

[Ryan]

That makes sense.

Indeed. Not sure how big or small it will be. Could be something along the lines of the mini one they did for Rises.

 

[Awest66]

I once read something that stucked for me : Snyder was more interested in "Kal-El, the last son of Krypton" than "Clark Kent, the farm boy form Kansas".

I do think the character, in MOS, was treated like if he was that supreme being just arriving on our planet, trying to fit. But that's not Superman. Martian Mahunter maybe, I don't know. But Superman grew on Earth, he doesn't really need to try to fit imo. You can sure have him being doubtful, but only as a reaction to the world pressuring him (like intended in BvS). You can't have that from the start, it should never had been a character trait like here. And I'm no purist, I like reinvention, but what was presented in this new take just never really (or fully) worked.

The fact the script didn't offer many lines to Cavill also made the problem worse, with his Clark almost systematically coming off as disconnected with those around him. I still feel to this day like I don't really know who he is at the end of his movie... And you can't just use the actor (undeniable) charm to hide that, it's not enough.
By the way, about the casting, if on paper everyone seems like good choices, I really think Cavill, Adams, and even Lane lacked chemistry together. This prevented the performances to make up for the fragile writing (an opinion I share about Bale and Hatawhay in TDKR to come back to the subject ).
As said some post above, the music was welcome to energize the drama a bit. Zimmer contribution is probably what I take away the most from the film, parts of which I think can stand on its own without the context of the film.

For what it's worth, I thought they had more chemistry he did with either version of Rachel Dawes.

I agree with most everything else though.

 

[Kargo Warrior]

For what it's worth, I thought they had more chemistry he did with either version of Rachel Dawes.

I agree with most everything else though.

Bale had little-to-no chemistry with anyone, Hathaway, Cotillard, Holmes or Gylenhaal. Half of that is due to how poorly those relationships were written.

In Batman Begins, he hasn't seen Rachel for 7-8 years, nothing was insinuated that they were anything but childhood friends, and yet at the end they proclaim some love that came out of nowhere.

In The Dark Knight, he tries to win her while she's dating Dent, and tries to convince her to leave Dent behind his back. Gylenhaal had excellent chemistry with the guy she was actually dating.

In The Dark Knight Rises, Selina steals Bruce's fingerprints, helps to frame him and publicly destroy both him and his company to save herself, then betrays Bruce and serves him to Bane leaving him for dead. After all that, Bruce trusts her unquestionably because the script demands it and Anne Hathaway is hot. He comes back to Gotham, finds her and behaves as if she stole a bottle of milk and convinces her that there's more to her than that. They spend the next few hours saving the city and Bruce retires from being Batman by going to Florence with someone he has literally known for less than 5 hours total time. The only way any of it works is because the characters have a 80+ years history in the comics and you're supposed to root for them. The film earns none of it.

Talia and Bruce were terribly written, neither their ''romance'' worked, nor the betrayal considering what a side-note Miranda is in the film, nor her turn to villainy considering she died 2 minutes after the reveal.

On one hand, i'm not a fan of the forced interconnectedness of the MCU. I'm incredibly grateful that Batman Begins and The Dark Knight are separate entities that i can watch on their own without any added requirements. On the other hand, Miranda appearing in The Dark Knight would have made her twist a lot deeper and more credible in the sequel.

Rachel should not have been turned into a love interest, let her stay a friend, Batman Begins has absolutely no need for a cl, make Miranda the love interest that seemingly always supports Bruce, that consoles him when Rachel dies, etc... and then the reveal would have hit like a hammer.

I admit that all of this is with the foresight of watching the films a hundred times.

 

[Awest66]

n The Dark Knight Rises, Selina steals Bruce's fingerprints, helps to frame him and publicly destroy both him and his company to save herself, then betrays Bruce and serves him to Bane leaving him for dead. After all that, Bruce trusts her unquestionably because the script demands it and Anne Hathaway is hot. He comes back to Gotham, finds her and behaves as if she stole a bottle of milk and convinces her that there's more to her than that. They spend the next few hours saving the city and Bruce retires from being Batman by going to Florence with someone he has literally known for less than 5 hours total time. The only way any of it works is because the characters have a 80+ years history in the comics and you're supposed to root for them. The film earns none of it.

She didn't actually know what Bruce's fingerprints were going to be used for, She was just doing a job. She led Bruce into a trap out of self-preservation (I mean in Batman Returns, Selina helped the Penguin frame Batman for Murder for literally no other reason than out of spite). Plus an intrinsic part of this version of Bruce Wayne is that he looks for the best in people and he never loses hope in them so it's honestly pretty understandable that he wouldn't hold it against her when he came back especially since he needs all the allies he can get in this fight to save Gotham. (plus he just witnessed her save a kid from being harassed when she didn't have to so his "There's more to you than that' mentality towards her clearly does not come out of nowhere)

The whole point of the ending isn't that Bruce and Selina are married, It's that their relationship is just getting started. But by all means, How could the film have "earned it" than?

 

[DoomRulz]

It's funny because I think the third Man of Steel trailer offered a lot of promise. Sadly, whoever put the trailer together did a better job of capturing the notes of Superman than the actual film.

Like HISHE said in this video...



I mean, it's an accurate statement.

 

[BatLobster]

I think Bale and Hathaway had good chemistry. I shipped it.

And yeah, the fact that Bruce is able to see past Selena's betrayal and into the better side of her nature is just classic Bat/Cat stuff. He also understands that Selena is just trying to do what she can to escape and start over, was afraid of Bane and isn't the true evil in the overall situation. He also knows she makes a formidable ally and this isn't the time to hold petty grudges when Gotham is on the verge of being destroyed.

 

[Gothamsknight]

I remember that night. Man, that was a special time. I wish I could get that kind of hype for The Batman.

I wish the viral marketing for The Batman could have started far earlier, but I guess it's because we just live in different times now. As stated, they did start a Riddler website and such, and it's really cool that there is something being done for The Batman, but I don't think they're gonna go all out for The Batman like they did for TDK. Still, at least they're doing something and I'm sure there's more to come.

 

[Rick190293]

I think Bale and Hathaway had good chemistry. I shipped it.

And yeah, the fact that Bruce is able to see past Selena's betrayal and into the better side of her nature is just classic Bat/Cat stuff. He also understands that Selena is just trying to do what she can to escape and start over, was afraid of Bane and isn't the true evil in the overall situation. He also knows she makes a formidable ally and this isn't the time to hold petty grudges when Gotham is on the verge of being destroyed.

I liked their chemistry, too. Much more than with Kate or Maggie, at least being with Selina makes more sense, since they both are outlaws.
Selina had a pretty good arc in TDKR, considering her poor screentime, I think Nolan covered really well her double side.

 

[The Joker]

Considering past depictions of the Bruce/Selina relationship, including BTAS where Selina was only interested in Batman and had no attraction to Bruce Wayne, the TDKR one is probably the most believable one.

Selina only betrayed Bruce because her back was up against a wall, and she was fighting for her survival. Not to mention she didn't even know Bruce was Batman. It wasn't done out of greed or malicious intent. It was an act of desperation. When push came to shove she came through in the end and came back to save both Bruce and Gotham.

And yeah I agree Bale and Hathaway absolutely had chemistry.