The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - Part 156

[BatLobster]

I wish the viral marketing for The Batman could have started far earlier, but I guess it's because we just live in different times now. As stated, they did start a Riddler website and such, and it's really cool that there is something being done for The Batman, but I don't think they're gonna go all out for The Batman like they did for TDK. Still, at least they're doing something and I'm sure there's more to come.

Yeah, with 2 months to go before the film's release, I don't think it's going to be in the same ballpark. Unfortunately the state of the pandemic also probably isn't the best for sending people out into the real world to do ARGs, so we'll never know what may have been on the table there. Would be cool if they do one last game before the release where fans can secure tickets for early screenings. That was a nice little cherry on top for the fans who followed the TDK viral games for months.

I liked their chemistry, too. Much more than with Kate or Maggie, at least being with Selina makes more sense, since they both are outlaws.
Selina had a pretty good arc in TDKR, considering her poor screentime, I think Nolan covered really well her double side.

The thing with TDKR is it's telling such a big, sweeping story. I'm willing to forgive certain things in the story being a bit abbreviated, because the story is covering so much ground and taking you through such big journey while hitting a lot of familiar notes of the source material. I think it weaves a lot of familiar elements together really nicely while being its own unique Batman story.

 

[Gothamsknight]

I've never seen this quote before until now. The Dark Knight is still easily my favorite of the trilogy, but it's interesting to see that Nolan almost seems to prefer Batman Begins over it. Or maybe I'm misinterpreting his words.

 

[Ryan]

Like HISHE said in this video...



I mean, it's an accurate statement.

Haha ya pretty much!!

 

[Ryan]

Bale had little-to-no chemistry with anyone, Hathaway, Cotillard, Holmes or Gylenhaal. Half of that is due to how poorly those relationships were written.

In Batman Begins, he hasn't seen Rachel for 7-8 years, nothing was insinuated that they were anything but childhood friends, and yet at the end they proclaim some love that came out of nowhere.

In The Dark Knight, he tries to win her while she's dating Dent, and tries to convince her to leave Dent behind his back. Gylenhaal had excellent chemistry with the guy she was actually dating.

In The Dark Knight Rises, Selina steals Bruce's fingerprints, helps to frame him and publicly destroy both him and his company to save herself, then betrays Bruce and serves him to Bane leaving him for dead. After all that, Bruce trusts her unquestionably because the script demands it and Anne Hathaway is hot. He comes back to Gotham, finds her and behaves as if she stole a bottle of milk and convinces her that there's more to her than that. They spend the next few hours saving the city and Bruce retires from being Batman by going to Florence with someone he has literally known for less than 5 hours total time. The only way any of it works is because the characters have a 80+ years history in the comics and you're supposed to root for them. The film earns none of it.

Talia and Bruce were terribly written, neither their ''romance'' worked, nor the betrayal considering what a side-note Miranda is in the film, nor her turn to villainy considering she died 2 minutes after the reveal.

On one hand, i'm not a fan of the forced interconnectedness of the MCU. I'm incredibly grateful that Batman Begins and The Dark Knight are separate entities that i can watch on their own without any added requirements. On the other hand, Miranda appearing in The Dark Knight would have made her twist a lot deeper and more credible in the sequel.

Rachel should not have been turned into a love interest, let her stay a friend, Batman Begins has absolutely no need for a cl, make Miranda the love interest that seemingly always supports Bruce, that consoles him when Rachel dies, etc... and then the reveal would have hit like a hammer.

I admit that all of this is with the foresight of watching the films a hundred times.

I'm with you on that. I found zero chemistry between Bruce/Batman and Hathaway, Marion, and either Rachel. Not one of those relationships had a singular 'moment' for me like the one Batman had with Gordon at the end of Rises. But heck, it's a Batman movie, so I'm not exactly going into it expecting the Notebook anyways so it wasn't a bid deal to me.

 

[BatLobster]

I've never seen this quote before until now. The Dark Knight is still easily my favorite of the trilogy, but it's interesting to see that Nolan almost seems to prefer Batman Begins over it. Or maybe I'm misinterpreting his words.

Oh yes, I remember that bit, it's from The Nolan Variations (great book, most open I think Nolan has been about his life and work).

I do actually remember when TDKR was in pre-production, Wally mentioned in an interview that they had screened both previous films films and that he and Nolan disagreed a bit on which film they liked more. I always took that to mean Nolan actually preferred BB, which yeah is interesting.

I'm sure Nolan is proud of them all, but I do know what he means. TDK is a pretty relentless ride where a lot of bad stuff happens. It IS pretty cold, even though I think it's brilliant. I could also see how the experience of Heath passing away while he was still editing the film must've been a difficult experience and might color his perception a bit too. Though I don't think he gets into that in the book.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Oh yes, I remember that bit, it's from The Nolan Variations (great book, most open I think Nolan has been about his life and work).

I do actually remember when TDKR was in pre-production, Wally mentioned in an interview that they had screened both previous films films and that he and Nolan disagreed a bit on which film they liked more. I always took that to mean Nolan actually preferred BB, which yeah is interesting.

I'm sure Nolan is proud of them all, but I do know what he means. TDK is a pretty relentless ride where a lot of bad stuff happens. It IS pretty cold, even though I think it's brilliant. I could also see how the experience of Heath passing away while he was still editing the film must've been a difficult experience and might color his perception a bit too. Though I don't think he gets into that in the book.

Yeah, I think TDK is intentionally meant to feel uncomfortable in a way. It's a nihilistic journey, and I think it feeling cold is essentially it doing it's job right. Batman Begins is incredible though, and I still can see why some might prefer that experience of course.

 

[BatLobster]

Yeah, I think TDK is intentionally meant to feel uncomfortable in a way. It's a nihilistic journey, and I think it feeling cold is essentially it doing it's job right. Batman Begins is incredible though, and I still can see why some might prefer that experience of course.

Agreed. Best thing about the trilogy is it explores different genres and offers a bit of a different experience each time.

I think if you're to compare it to something like Star Wars, Empire is also the 'coldest' one. Not that it doesn't have emotion, but everything goes wrong for the heroes in that film. So TDK definitely serves its function as a middle chapter and then some.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Agreed. Best thing about the trilogy is it explores different genres and offers a bit of a different experience each time.

I think if you're to compare it to something like Star Wars, Empire is also the 'coldest' one. Not that it doesn't have emotion, but everything goes wrong for the heroes in that film. So TDK definitely serves its function as a middle chapter and then some.

Yep. There are people who prefer A New Hope, but Empire has an "edge" to it because it raises the stakes and doesn't feel as comfy in a way. It feels bleak, while also not being too dark. The Dark Knight is similar in that it's bleak at times, but it doesn't completely fall into an abyss either. The ending is hopeful, despite all the carnage.

 

[Brother Jack]

I've never seen this quote before until now. The Dark Knight is still easily my favorite of the trilogy, but it's interesting to see that Nolan almost seems to prefer Batman Begins over it. Or maybe I'm misinterpreting his words.

That is fascinating. I need to read that book. Maybe I'm reading too much into that quote but I wonder if there's an element of Nolan pushing against the overwhelming, near-universal acclaim the film got a little bit. I mean, he was a very successful and lauded director before that, but TDK was such a zeitgeist-defining cultural earthquake of a film that had to have gone beyond anything he could have imagined. And suddenly you have fans saying it's the greatest movie they've ever seen and that you're the greatest director of all time. Unless you're a huge egomaniac, one's natural inclination would be to disagree with that. I actually think it influenced the decision making in the early stages of production on Rises, to perhaps go a different direction than some were probably expecting (myself included at the time) and decidedly not just make "The Dark Knight 2".

 

[Ryan]

That is fascinating. I need to read that book. Maybe I'm reading too much into that quote but I wonder if there's an element of Nolan pushing against the overwhelming, near-universal acclaim the film got a little bit. I mean, he was a very successful and lauded director before that, but TDK was such a zeitgeist-defining cultural earthquake of a film that had to have gone beyond anything he could have imagined. And suddenly you have fans saying it's the greatest movie they've ever seen and that you're the greatest director of all time. Unless you're a huge egomaniac, one's natural inclination would be to disagree with that. I actually think it influenced the decision making in the early stages of production on Rises, to perhaps go a different direction than some were probably expecting (myself included at the time) and decidedly not just make "The Dark Knight 2".

The book is a really good read. I won't spoil anything with a bunch of quotes etc but Nolan does talk about his reasoning for the direction that Rises took. I will say the rest of that page continues to state Nolan's affinity for Begins and his experience to shooting TDK is quite fascinating. One funny line Nolan says is that there weren't a lot of good trilogy films other than Rocky and I've always said that Rises had a Rocky feel to it.

 

[Gothamsknight]

That is fascinating. I need to read that book. Maybe I'm reading too much into that quote but I wonder if there's an element of Nolan pushing against the overwhelming, near-universal acclaim the film got a little bit. I mean, he was a very successful and lauded director before that, but TDK was such a zeitgeist-defining cultural earthquake of a film that had to have gone beyond anything he could have imagined. And suddenly you have fans saying it's the greatest movie they've ever seen and that you're the greatest director of all time. Unless you're a huge egomaniac, one's natural inclination would be to disagree with that. I actually think it influenced the decision making in the early stages of production on Rises, to perhaps go a different direction than some were probably expecting (myself included at the time) and decidedly not just make "The Dark Knight 2".

I think so too. I really have to get my hands on this book somehow. I wasn't even aware it existed!

The book is a really good read. I won't spoil anything with a bunch of quotes etc but Nolan does talk about his reasoning for the direction that Rises took. I will say the rest of that page continues to state Nolan's affinity for Begins and his experience to shooting TDK is quite fascinating. One funny line Nolan says is that there weren't a lot of good trilogy films other than Rocky and I've always said that Rises had a Rocky feel to it.

I never thought of it like that, but TDKR totally has a Rocky vibe to it, particularly when he's trying to regain his strength in the prison or his final fight against Bane. Some Rocky III vibes in particular.

 

[BatLobster]

This is the book btw. I listened to it on Audible a while back.
https://www.amazon.com/Nolan-Variations-Mysteries-Marvels-Christopher/dp/0525655328

And yeah @Brother Jack I think you could be onto something there. Something like TDK takes on such a life of its own in the culture that it has to be overwhelming. It became something bigger than the sum of its parts and I think Nolan knew that there was no point in trying to chase that again, especially without Heath.

Seeing Nolan's feelings about the trilogy years later though should hopefully dispel the idea that I saw a lot of back in the day, that his heart wasn't in TDKR and he phoned it in. He clearly had big ambitions for the film and a desire to close the loop started in Batman Begins. The movie may have some flaws, but I never could get on board with people who saw it as some type of cynical "yeah here's your third Batman now leave me alone..." thing. That was always just so clearly untrue IMO. I also think Bane is likely his favorite villain of the trilogy based on a few things he's said.

 

[Ryan]

I also think Bane is likely his favorite villain of the trilogy based on a few things he's said.

I don' t know if Bane is his favorite villian however I have read in a few different books where Nolan seems to champion Hardy's protrayal quite a bit. He quite often tends to defend both Rises and Hardy's performance as underrated.
It was funny to see those Rocky quotes as I said the same thing on this board many moons ago. The whole thing of Bruce going back to basics, prepping himself in the pit, fighting a bigger threat etc.

 

[Man in the Suit]

I've never seen this quote before until now. The Dark Knight is still easily my favorite of the trilogy, but it's interesting to see that Nolan almost seems to prefer Batman Begins over it. Or maybe I'm misinterpreting his words.

I didn't know needed this book until now...

I still think TDK is the best (it's like my favorite movie), but I find myself watching TDKR more than the other two. I believe it's the one I've seen the most over the last decade. There's just something about it.

 

[BatLobster]

I didn't know needed this book until now...

I still think TDK is the best (it's like my favorite movie), but I find myself watching TDKR more than the other two. I believe it's the one I've seen the most over the last decade. There's just something about it.

I relate to this.

 

[Awest66]

Seeing Nolan's feelings about the trilogy years later though should hopefully dispel the idea that I saw a lot of back in the day, that his heart wasn't in TDKR and he phoned it in.

I doubt those people would be saying this about TDKR if it ended on the usual "I must protect Gotham as Batman until the day I die" type ending.

 

[Gothamsknight]

I didn't know needed this book until now...

I still think TDK is the best (it's like my favorite movie), but I find myself watching TDKR more than the other two. I believe it's the one I've seen the most over the last decade. There's just something about it.

TDKR is a very rewatchable movie, honestly despite it's long length. I still think it's a great film and a great conclusion to the trilogy. It's also very emotional too, more than people give it credit for.

 

[Ryan]

TDKR is a very rewatchable movie, honestly despite it's long length. I still think it's a great film and a great conclusion to the trilogy. It's also very emotional too, more than people give it credit for.

It is interesting to note in that section of the book that was posted, that Nolan has an awareness that he feels a need to defend the work in Begins/TDKR. I wish that he elaborated further on his defence of TDKR as he really doesn't say much about it in the book. The only thing he comments on in another section of the book is his praise of Hardy's work and how underated he thought it was.

 

[Gothamsknight]

It is interesting to note in that section of the book that was posted, that Nolan has an awareness that he feels a need to defend the work in Begins/TDKR. I wish that he elaborated further on his defence of TDKR as he really doesn't say much about it in the book. The only thing he comments on in another section of the book is his praise of Hardy's work and how underated he thought it was.

This is interesting. It kinda makes me believe even more that perhaps Nolan feels protective over Batman Begins and TDKR, especially with how huge TDK was.

speaking of Batman Begins, I have to say that I remember vividly how blown away I was at the opening of this movie and the introduction of adult Bruce Wayne. I remember sitting in the theater thinking about how I'd never seen anything like this.

 

[Herofan]

I doubt those people would be saying this about TDKR if it ended on the usual "I must protect Gotham as Batman until the day I die" type ending.

Though that's a more familiar ending I think it's a much better ending then I beat a third big villain, so that's the end of the big villains and my quest.

 

[BatLobster]

It is interesting to note in that section of the book that was posted, that Nolan has an awareness that he feels a need to defend the work in Begins/TDKR. I wish that he elaborated further on his defence of TDKR as he really doesn't say much about it in the book. The only thing he comments on in another section of the book is his praise of Hardy's work and how underated he thought it was.

I actually was just re-listening to that TDKR chapter based on this conversation, and I think he does talk about it a decent amount. He says he feels that it's very subversive film and he's surprised what they were able to get away with, with leaning into class tension and depicting kangaroo courts and all of that. It's pretty damn frightening if you think about it. Like the movie flat out depicts a fascist leader rising to power in a modern day American city. And he was saying how Jonah was pushing that they needed to "go there", in terms of kind of letting 'the bad thing' happen. He was saying how basically the movies up to that point were always about the threat of the villain trying to collapse society, but TDKR finally lets it happen- Bane takes control of Gotham and society goes into full collapse. I think that was a first for the genre. I think Nolan is proud that the film was willing to be that bold and do what other superhero films hadn't yet done.

Like I was saying in another thread, it wasn't really until Endgame that I felt a similar sense of sh** hitting the fan where basically the villain wins, and there's this desolate, desperate feeling.

 

[Ryan]

I actually was just re-listening to that TDKR chapter based on this conversation, and I think he does talk about it a decent amount. He says he feels that it's very subversive film and he's surprised what they were able to get away with, with leaning into class tension and depicting kangaroo courts and all of that. It's pretty damn frightening if you think about it. Like the movie flat out depicts a fascist leader rising to power in a modern day American city. And he was saying how Jonah was pushing that they needed to "go there", in terms of kind of letting 'the bad thing' happen. He was saying how basically the movies up to that point were always about the threat of the villain trying to collapse society, but TDKR finally lets it happen- Bane takes control of Gotham and society goes into full collapse. I think that was a first for the genre. I think Nolan is proud that the film was willing to be that bold and do what other superhero films hadn't yet done.

Like I was saying in another thread, it wasn't really until Endgame that I felt a similar sense of sh** hitting the fan where basically the villain wins, and there's this desolate, desperate feeling.

Yes, I read all of that and that's Nolan's explanation of what he was doing with TDKR. What I found to be absent is him addressing his perception that TDKR did not live up to TDK and why he feels that way and in what ways he feels he has to defend it.

GothamsKnight-yes indeed. I had the same feeling as well. I went into Begins with basically no knowledge of what to expect (I miss those days) and was blown away by this reinvention of the wheel. THIS was the Batman I had waited and hoped to see for so long.

 

[Awest66]

Though that's a more familiar ending I think it's a much better ending then I beat a third big villain, so that's the end of the big villains and my quest.

Agree to disagree, I think the ending of TDKR is perfect as is.

 

[BatLobster]

Yes, I read all of that and that's Nolan's explanation of what he was doing with TDKR. What I found to be absent is him addressing his perception that TDKR did not live up to TDK and why he feels that way and in what ways he feels he has to defend it.

Ah, yeah fair enough. I mean I personally think there's only so far a director should go in defending their own films before it starts to feel a bit weird. It's why I'm glad Nolan's not on Twitter haha. Of course, I'd love to know his nitty gritty thoughts on some of this stuff though.

And yeah @Gothamsknight that was my feeling too watching Begins. When it cuts to Bruce in the prison you immediately knew it was something unlike any Batman movie you'd seen before. first act of Begins.

 

[Blade Hoarder]

Rewatching bits of the trilogy. It’s interesting how Begins and Rises look like glossy, “modern” movies. But TDK looks like a film from the 70’s. The whole movie has this faded, old look. It was deliberate, I’m sure. But film one and three looks so much more pleasing on TV.