The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - Part 156

[Gothamsknight]

Also, people have criticized the choice to write Alfred out of the movie and have him leave, but the ending hits so much harder because that last moment is also a reconciliation and closure for their relationship. You feel as happy for Alfred having peace as you do for Bruce.

Exactly. Alfred didnt want to watch someone he cared so much for die, and I think people overlook that so much. He knew Bruce was on a potential look suicide mission, and didn't want to watch any further. Seeing Bruce accomplish his goal at the end and Alfred giving the nod of approval back was *chef's kiss*. The audience was intended to feel both what Bruce was going through and Alfred.

 

[Rick190293]

I really love Nolan's boldness with the story. I mean, it was his 3rd Batman movie, 7th bat movie at the time, so we have Bruce being retired, Alfred leaving, and he finally having a happy ending. And it was all wrapped nicely, even with some flaws.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

So, I'm house/dogsitting and I needed something to watch while on the elliptical. I put on Rises because it's on Netflix and I've only seen it once (back in February) in years.

I have some constructive critiques of the film. As much as I love the film and it might be my personal favourite of the trilogy - it has more moments where I say "They should've done ______" than the other two films.

I understand the film is already very long, but bear with me.

Minor Things -

- Foley. They should've left in the shot of him getting hit by the car. It's awkward AF to just show him shooting, cut to another shot or two, then weirdly zoom in on a bloodless Foley dead, looking like he's sleeping.

- Batman's confronting of Bane. Imagine after The Bat sabotages the Tumblers and the fighting ensues, we have Batman park The Bat, jump off a rooftop and glide over the chaos almost like the first film, only for him to land kick onto Bane to start the fight. That would've been prime Batman.

- Talia stabbing Batman - leave it out. It makes no difference after she removed it, when in reality he'd be bleeding out really badly.

- Batman not getting the upper hand on Bane and needing to be saved by Catwoman. I'm okay with her saving him in theory - but I'm a bit bummed Bane got the last upper hand on Batman.

- Some scenes feel like they're edited to rush things. Just an observation.

- The Tumblers in this film are like the small Doge meme and the Tumbler in the first two films are the swole Doge meme. They weak AF here.

- Would've loved to see Bruce struggle a bit more to not fall on his last ascension. More tension was needed.

- "WHERE'S THE TRIGGER?" should've been toned down. It was a little self-parodying.

Major Things -

1.) Alfred - After Bruce escapes the Pit (insert Parks and Rec's Mouserat song), I really think a scene where Alfred must pick up a tattered Bruce (just like in Begins) yet again would've helped. For one, it gives us some idea how he got back to Gotham, which was a common complaint.

Two, it would've allowed one final conversation between the two in the jet, mirroring the first film a bit, too. Where Bruce says he needs to return to inspire the people again, where Alfred understands he's no longer on a suicide mission and must reluctantly help Bruce do what's needed. That Bruce is Gotham's best chance.

2.) Alfred Again - Instead of that, I also think it'd have been interesting as can be to have Bane round up Alfred and put him in the Pit with Bruce, as punishment for Bruce.

This would've given them time to resolve their issues and all the dialogue time between the prisoner and Bruce could've been shared between him and Alfred, which I think we are far more invested in anyway.

Having Alfred nurse Bruce back to better condition, knowing that doing so means Bruce WILL try to go back to save Gotham would've been interesting to watch him grapple with. Knowing he has to potentially let Bruce go for the greater good ("THE GREATER GOOD").

Bruce - "Why won't you give up on me?"
Alfred - "I told you, I won't bury you."

I just think that would've been interesting.

I'm sure I'll think of more later.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

I love Blake's face watching Batman kick ass. It's like a fanboy seeing his hero in action.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

I wanted to share what a user on Reddit pointed out about this film and the year of 2012's impact on creating this...online film criticism/discourse that's too analytical, nitpicky and in poor faith.

I think it's very true. So many video essays...

"There were several films released during the summer of 2012 which began the conditioning of online film criticism that has damaged a way a lot of people view movies up until this very day. The Dark Knight Rises was one of the biggest films to spearhead that.

Every last moment or decision was held up to massive scrutiny and subjected to flawless logic. This film is one of the biggest victims for people having zero concept of what a plot hole actually is. Not saying you can't take issue with the film, it is flawed, but it's no accident that channels such as CinemaSins and Honest Trailers really rose to prominence that same year.

"Criticism" that throws out engaging with theme, tone or subtext and instead exclusively abides by some checklist that can't separate fantast from reality.

The fact that the legacy of Rises is 'drrr plotholes' is unbelievably absurd and the fact that it not only has endured but bled into every facet of criticism for all media is so strange."

 

[OnLeatherWings]

Another User -

"I feel like online people have tried really hard to turn Rises into a disliked-by-society movie like the Prequels or Spider-Man 3, rewriting its critically praised and audience approved reception into a mixed-to-negative one AT BEST.

And it's been a pretty successful rewrite.

Read any article on the film or the trilogy and you will see it takes shots at the film and highlights its poor reception. People who love the film will immediately say "I know I'm in the minority BUT I love this film!" when they're in the majority. But because online people have worked hard to rewrite history, everyone is none the wiser.

It's bonkers."

 

[titansupes]

Agreeeeeed. It's the weirdest ****ing thing.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Don't mean to sound like a gatekeeper, but let's be real. The majority of criticisms towards TDKR are by people who spend way too much time on Twitter and who were more than likely too young to even remember seeing it in theaters when it came out. Twitter has a very big teenage population. I mean come on, when you put up a poll for best Spider-Man on Twitter, it's the only place where Andrew Garfield wins despite having terrible movies. That's no coincidence. These people laugh if you even say TDKR is better than The Batman simply because that is the most recent version. It is better than The Batman though.

 

[BatLobster]

I wanted to share what a user on Reddit pointed out about this film and the year of 2012's impact on creating this...online film criticism/discourse that's too analytical, nitpicky and in poor faith.

I think it's very true. So many video essays...

"There were several films released during the summer of 2012 which began the conditioning of online film criticism that has damaged a way a lot of people view movies up until this very day. The Dark Knight Rises was one of the biggest films to spearhead that.

Every last moment or decision was held up to massive scrutiny and subjected to flawless logic. This film is one of the biggest victims for people having zero concept of what a plot hole actually is. Not saying you can't take issue with the film, it is flawed, but it's no accident that channels such as CinemaSins and Honest Trailers really rose to prominence that same year.

"Criticism" that throws out engaging with theme, tone or subtext and instead exclusively abides by some checklist that can't separate fantast from reality.

The fact that the legacy of Rises is 'drrr plotholes' is unbelievably absurd and the fact that it not only has endured but bled into every facet of criticism for all media is so strange."

I have felt this for a long time. It was the beginning of the "divisive blockbuster" era, where the release of certain films became an exhausting event.

I don't think it was some sort of conspiracy or anything, but it definitely marked a moment in time where movie bloggers/Youtubers started monetizing the idea of nitpicking a movie to death. I suppose it was an easy target for that because it was super ambitious, had narrative/time "jumps", and the series had the somewhat mistaken reputation of being uber-realistic even though they always were heightened reality and big blockbusters. I always felt like there was a certain mean-spiritedness and pile-on effect with the hate TDKR got. Unfortunately that type of thing has only gotten progressively worse since then to the point that TDKR still feels like the "before times" in terms of the rise of online toxic fandoms and everything turning into a culture war issue. Obviously it goes way bigger than just nerd culture. Although weirdly TDKR seems to be sounding an alarm about this incoming societal collapse and how fragile "peace time" can be.

Anyway, none of it really bothers me anymore. I can completely understand not liking Rises or it being someone's least favorite of the trilogy. There are times I have my own complicated feelings about it. I just think people have to be real that there are some undeniably brilliant aspects of it, and it's still a Chris Nolan Batman movie which means at the very baseline there's: amazing production value, jaw-dropping practical setpieces, fantastic performances, memorable moments, quotable lines, ambition, big themes and something to say about the character and society as a whole. You can choose to ignore all of that if you want and only focus on the negative, but I don't know why you would.

I mean sure...is Talia's death scene pretty goofy? Is there a reasonable debate to be had about whether her character's inclusion was necessary or undercut Bane? "OF COURSE!" But do things like that detract from the overall experience to me? No way. The movie is too jam-packed with great stuff for me to let things like that entirely tip the scale.

On the Talia issue, I personally think the movie was kind of damned if it did, damned if it didn't in terms of bringing her in. Obviously people loved the idea of Bane being the final boss. I would've been fine with that too. But the movie also deals too heavily with the LoS and themes of legacy not to address the al Ghuls, and Talia is a big part of all of that in the mythos. Maybe it was too full of a circle for some people, but I think the movie focused on Ra's way too much not to bring that storyline full circle. I also think it helps address the issue of Batman killing Ra's in Begins. He pays a price for that. Just like he also pays a price for Dent's death and the aftermath of that. The movie is about consequences, so I think it was the last important loose end to tie up. I also feel like the Miranda/Talia character is more like a hybrid of Talia and Nyssa in terms of her overall story, so I don't look at her as a straight adaptation of Talia.

 

[Blade Hoarder]

Also the weird love for the prequel trilogy nowadays. It makes sense when you realize social media is dominated by 00 kids now.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Also the weird love for the prequel trilogy nowadays. It makes sense when you realize social media is dominated by 00 kids now.

I'm pushing 30 and I remember very very well how hated those movies were. It's insane to me how people have tried to completely rewrite history on them. Even the matrix sequels, which I love, have not gotten "revisionism" just because resurrections did something different.

 

[Blade Hoarder]

That’s because the matrix movies were for teens and up, not kiddies. These prequel lovers were kids when they saw it. They have childhood nostalgia for them. George Lucas was right. The PT was for kids.

 

[BatLobster]

I've always been something of a prequel apologist, but let's be real. The memes are what saved their reputation for the most part.

And yes, they were targeted at kids, who grew up to be Reddit posters and meme-makers.

That said, I do think the prequels have merit and I'm fine with a more balanced conversation about them with some time and distance. I think that is normal once the emotions cool down and everything. But the idea of pretending that they weren't once the most hated franchise movies ever is also pretty laughable. The extreme negative response is largely responsible for Lucas selling to Disney.

 

[Gothamsknight]

I was a fan of the PT as a kid too and I still am though I totally recognize their flaws. It's just funny how people act like Disney stole star wars from George when it's the same way they've responded to the ST that caused George to sell it in the first place.

 

[Filmfreak]

Truth is sometimes the current run of a property can help you appreciate past entries more. I was never much of a Star Wars fan outside the original trilogy, didn't particularly like the prequels and I still don't care that much about them, but ever since Disney put its claws into the franchise I respect them more. Despite lots of problems that they had they were at least a single creator's vision, something that felt special in a way. It felt they had soul. It wasn't just another cog in a large corporate mechanism that is trying to milk it.

And I think there are many people that come from the same place as I am. Sure, nostalgia is a huge factor, but it's not just nostalgia for a specific universe, but also nostalgia for the times studios weren't mass producing "content" and moving on to something else in a blink of an eye. Overexposure leads to fatigue and there's a feeling that they're not putting much effort into something because all they want is to drain it dry until there's no revenue left. And then just reboot it and try again until there is. That is also something that has tired me to death, over the years. We literally had three different live-action versions of Spider-Man in the span of nine years. I won't even try to do the math on Batman.

Equally, I think that a reason fans have warmed up on Spider-Man 3 is a the low quality of the Garfield films (though I still admit I like his first one quite a bit) and a lot of things that the MCU version didn't do right.

 

[Gothamsknight]

I do admire the PT's ambition and attempt to do something different more than the ST's safe route, though I still think Force Awakens and TLJ to an extent is solid. In general, I just feel really burnt out on Star Wars, more than I ever have been. Mandalorian revived some of it for me, but now I'm back to really not being all that interested at the moment. I love Star Wars, but it's hard to want to be a part of something that involves who act like everything that is released is intended to start a culture war. Which is a shame because I was SOOOO hyped during The Force Awakens era. Anyway, the only Lucasfilm project I'm very very excited for in the next 12 months is Indiana Jones V because it's being helmed by a constant quality filmmaker. Mark my words, it's gonna be next years Top Gun Maverick.

I think a lot of studios don't try as hard as they used to, and in turn, the GA has become satiated by the bare minimum of satisfaction. There's a lot of the GA who enjoy Thor Love & Thunder, while i personally believe it's a new low for the MCU and it's probably one of the worst films of the year so far. I get it, the 2000s was an era of both great and bad comic book films, but the great ones from that time period have a quality that has yet to be match. I'm looking for an experience like the Nolan movies or the Raimi films again, but nothing has really come close except Logan or Days of Future Past. Btw, I'd take Spider-Man 3 over any Spidey film since then, even though I found No Way Home to be really good.

 

[The Batman]

Minor Things -

- Foley. They should've left in the shot of him getting hit by the car. It's awkward AF to just show him shooting, cut to another shot or two, then weirdly zoom in on a bloodless Foley dead, looking like he's sleeping.

To be honest, this is one of 2 things from this post that I agree with. I do think Foley should've been hit by a vehicle, or at least have it implied that he was.

- Batman's confronting of Bane. Imagine after The Bat sabotages the Tumblers and the fighting ensues, we have Batman park The Bat, jump off a rooftop and glide over the chaos almost like the first film, only for him to land kick onto Bane to start the fight. That would've been prime Batman.

Not really necessary, IMO.

- Talia stabbing Batman - leave it out. It makes no difference after she removed it, when in reality he'd be bleeding out really badly.

You want to leave it out, but you don't really offer a viable alternative to Bruce getting betrayed and put in a position of peril.

- Batman not getting the upper hand on Bane and needing to be saved by Catwoman. I'm okay with her saving him in theory - but I'm a bit bummed Bane got the last upper hand on Batman.

Bane was utterly defeated by Batman, and needed someone else to surprise attack Bruce for him. I can see being annoyed of Bane had gotten the upper hand in a "Clean" way, but he didn't.

- The Tumblers in this film are like the small Doge meme and the Tumbler in the first two films are the swole Doge meme. They weak AF here.

Personally, I don't see how, they're really not used all that much in TDKR.

- Would've loved to see Bruce struggle a bit more to not fall on his last ascension. More tension was needed.

I don't think more that's needed. The scene is pretty powerful as it is.

- "WHERE'S THE TRIGGER?" should've been toned down. It was a little self-parodying.

This I agree with.

1.) Alfred - After Bruce escapes the Pit (insert Parks and Rec's Mouserat song), I really think a scene where Alfred must pick up a tattered Bruce (just like in Begins) yet again would've helped. For one, it gives us some idea how he got back to Gotham, which was a common complaint.

Two, it would've allowed one final conversation between the two in the jet, mirroring the first film a bit, too. Where Bruce says he needs to return to inspire the people again, where Alfred understands he's no longer on a suicide mission and must reluctantly help Bruce do what's needed. That Bruce is Gotham's best chance.

2.) Alfred Again - Instead of that, I also think it'd have been interesting as can be to have Bane round up Alfred and put him in the Pit with Bruce, as punishment for Bruce.

This would've given them time to resolve their issues and all the dialogue time between the prisoner and Bruce could've been shared between him and Alfred, which I think we are far more invested in anyway.

Having Alfred nurse Bruce back to better condition, knowing that doing so means Bruce WILL try to go back to save Gotham would've been interesting to watch him grapple with. Knowing he has to potentially let Bruce go for the greater good ("THE GREATER GOOD").

Bruce - "Why won't you give up on me?"
Alfred - "I told you, I won't bury you."

I just think that would've been interesting.

I'm sure I'll think of more later.

I think the movie had it right. Nolan takes everything from Bruce: his money, Alfred, and even Batman. When Bruce is thrown into that pit, the closest thing to support he has is a guy who is a jaded prisoner who is being paid to take care of him, and another guy who doesn't really say much until just before he escapes. Bruce is truly on his own. That's what makes him escaping the pit even more impressive. Having Alfred around just diminishes that, and doesn't really gel with the story Nolan was telling.

Also, the movie was already long enough without forcing more Alfred into it.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

I've never seen Star Wars (any of them) - but I know a lot about the films and the fanbase.

When the RedLetterMedia's Plinkett reviews of the Prequels came out in 2009 onward, that was a huge moment in nerd-review-dom. I'd argue that RLM's Plinkett reviews were the catalyst to that culture we see, today.

I'd always see people say "You like the PT? GO WATCH PLINKETT!" as if pointing to Plinkett was a be-all-end-all to debate.

If Plinkett said it = it was gospel.

Also, it seems as if there's this notion that IF you can joke at something's expense - it changes the quality of the thing you joke about.

 

[BatLobster]

Re: Foley's death, I always did find it weird that it was cut out because they definitely did shoot it and it looked pretty gnarly as I recall from the leaked cam footage. It would be so annoying if it was a MPAA issue considering all the pretty disturbing things that are in the film.

I've never seen Star Wars (any of them) - but I know a lot about the films and the fanbase.

Oh man....I mean, I'd say they are definitely worth checking out if nothing but to fill the pop culture gap. The original trilogy at the very least.

Still, for someone who hasn't seen them I agree with your insight and I always felt that way about the Plinkett reviews even though I enjoy RLM and found those fun to watch. I never saw them as the final word and felt it was lazy to treat them that way.

 

[Dede]

I wanted to share what a user on Reddit pointed out about this film and the year of 2012's impact on creating this...online film criticism/discourse that's too analytical, nitpicky and in poor faith.

I think it's very true. So many video essays...

"There were several films released during the summer of 2012 which began the conditioning of online film criticism that has damaged a way a lot of people view movies up until this very day. The Dark Knight Rises was one of the biggest films to spearhead that.

Every last moment or decision was held up to massive scrutiny and subjected to flawless logic. This film is one of the biggest victims for people having zero concept of what a plot hole actually is. Not saying you can't take issue with the film, it is flawed, but it's no accident that channels such as CinemaSins and Honest Trailers really rose to prominence that same year.

"Criticism" that throws out engaging with theme, tone or subtext and instead exclusively abides by some checklist that can't separate fantast from reality.

The fact that the legacy of Rises is 'drrr plotholes' is unbelievably absurd and the fact that it not only has endured but bled into every facet of criticism for all media is so strange."

If it helps there’s also a lot articles that rightfully regarded rises as one of the best superhero movies and even films of the decade. So it’s legacy is good especially being part of a beloved trilogy. The plot hole really is a vocal minority situation

 

[OnLeatherWings]

If it helps there’s also a lot articles that rightfully regarded rises as one of the best superhero movies and even films of the decade. So it’s legacy is good especially being part of a beloved trilogy. The plot hole really is a vocal minority situation

Sadly a lot of those articles come off as OR literally say "In defense of The Dark Knight Rises".

Which it really needs no defense, IMO.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

One of the best moments of a Batman vehicle on film is the reveal of The Bat.

That moment where the police think they've the upper hand, that Batman - gone for a few years - is back to be trapped.

And he emerges, blinding and deafening them under massives winds in this incredible vehicle in a way that says "LOL nah, fam - I still own this town. B*tches."

That sound design is incredible.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

Also, the shots of Catwoman and Batman in The Bat after they dodge Bane is Blade Runner AF.

 

[Rick190293]

Also, the shots of Catwoman and Batman in The Bat after they dodge Bane is Blade Runner AF.

Great atmosphere! I wish we saw more of The Bat at night.
Regarding this moment, does anyone know how Bats pulled this guy off? Never made sense for me lol

 

[Gothamsknight]

I think another reason why this trilogy in general ultimate feels very definitive for a lot of people is because all 3 were always beyond your typical summer superhero film that you see today. It's often considered of the greatest trilogies ever, and because of that, a lot of versions that come after will always pale when stacked up against it. It's not fair, but I think that's true to an extent.