The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - Part 156

[Brother Jack]

Great atmosphere! I wish we saw more of The Bat at night.
Regarding this moment, does anyone know how Bats pulled this guy off? Never made sense for me lol
View attachment 57413

I believe the implication is he grapples the guy from a street light they pass under. The physics of it are wonky but it was established in Begins with the Flass interrogation scene that Batman can use the grapple gun to snag people from the ground like that.

 

[shauner111]

And that's another thing that kinda annoys me too honestly. Like, there was all this talk of "we've never seen this before" but during interviews everybody kept saying it's grounded like Year One and stuff. Batman Begins took the Year One approach as well, and really the only thing this film did that was all that different was make Bruce Wayne emo and gave it a grunge edge.

Begins didn’t stay in that grounded Year One world for the entire duration. Reeves said he wanted to stay in it.

The detective side was different. The mix of grit/realism with gothic architecture, the constant rain, the Halloween vibes. It gave it a fresh look.

A serial killer has never been the villain in a Batman movie before.

A Batman who hasn’t found his purpose yet even though he’s operating as Batman. Never happened.

All the stuff with Penguin and the Iceberg Lounge. The Falcone/Kyle connection. Gordon and Batman going to crime scenes alone together. The wing suit. An Alfred who has taken part in training Bruce when he was a teenager. A villain flooding downtown Gotham. Martha having a history with mental illness and being an Arkham. Bruce and Alfred living in Wayne Tower with secret tunnels underneath being used for the batcave, where he has access to multiple entry and exit points at the center of Gotham (that way he doesn’t have to travel from the countryside into the city every time there’s a situation downtown). Bruce conveniently carrying his bat suit in his backpack everywhere he goes.

All new to theatrical Batman. It goes way beyond them just adding a grunge edge to Battinson.

 

[shauner111]

Don't mean to sound like a gatekeeper, but let's be real. The majority of criticisms towards TDKR are by people who spend way too much time on Twitter and who were more than likely too young to even remember seeing it in theaters when it came out. Twitter has a very big teenage population. I mean come on, when you put up a poll for best Spider-Man on Twitter, it's the only place where Andrew Garfield wins despite having terrible movies. That's no coincidence. These people laugh if you even say TDKR is better than The Batman simply because that is the most recent version. It is better than The Batman though.

I agree about your description of twitter. Not the rest though. Despite having the worst movies, Garfield is the best Spider-Man imo.

 

[Rick190293]

I believe the implication is he grapples the guy from a street light they pass under. The physics of it are wonky but it was established in Begins with the Flass interrogation scene that Batman can use the grapple gun to snag people from the ground like that.

Oh, I forgot about the 'swear to me' moment, now it makes more sense... still weird, through. Thanks!

 

[The Shape]

A serial killer has never been the villain in a Batman movie before.

The Joker in TDK says hello.

 

[Kane52630]

 

[The Joker]

Begins didn’t stay in that grounded Year One world for the entire duration. Reeves said he wanted to stay in it.

The detective side was different. The mix of grit/realism with gothic architecture, the constant rain, the Halloween vibes. It gave it a fresh look.

A serial killer has never been the villain in a Batman movie before.

A Batman who hasn’t found his purpose yet even though he’s operating as Batman. Never happened.

All the stuff with Penguin and the Iceberg Lounge. The Falcone/Kyle connection. Gordon and Batman going to crime scenes alone together. The wing suit. An Alfred who has taken part in training Bruce when he was a teenager. A villain flooding downtown Gotham. Martha having a history with mental illness and being an Arkham. Bruce and Alfred living in Wayne Tower with secret tunnels underneath being used for the batcave, where he has access to multiple entry and exit points at the center of Gotham (that way he doesn’t have to travel from the countryside into the city every time there’s a situation downtown). Bruce conveniently carrying his bat suit in his backpack everywhere he goes.

All new to theatrical Batman. It goes way beyond them just adding a grunge edge to Battinson.

I'll give The Batman credit where its due. Its a great movie, but a lot of this is just similar tropes from previous Batman movies, or stuff that really did not add anything impactful to make it feel different.

We have definitely had serial killer villains before with the Joker. The Falcone/Kyle connection was Catwoman having a personal beef with a wealthy big bad in Gotham. Seen that with Pfeiffer's Catwoman and Schreck. Same trope just for different reasons. It was still well done. A villain flooding Gotham, just another version of a villain attacking Gotham with something. Joker with his laughing gas, Penguin with rocket penguins, Freeze with a giant freeze gun, Ra's with the microwave emitter etc.

Farrell was great as his version of Penguin (the MVP of the villains for me) but the character was missing most of the elements that define Penguin as the Penguin. There was no monocle, cigarette holder, umbrella weapons, no sign he had a fondness for birds at all. The most Penguin like thing about him was the physique. The Iceberg Lounge was a sleazy looking dive. A far cry from the classy elegant establishment it is in the comics. Maybe all this will change in future appearances. But we can only judge on what we have now and not what we may get later. We have seen a gangster with his own club before with Falcone in Begins. To a lesser extend Maroni in TDK. Just because it was Cobblepot with a place called the Iceberg Lounge didn't make it feel uniquely different IMO. It was another gangster with a shady club.

Bruce and Alfred living in Wayne Tower, secret tunnels to the Batcave, Bruce carrying his bat suit everywhere.....to me that's like saying TDK has a unique feel because Bruce and Alfred lived in a penthouse, operated out of the secret Bat bunker etc. I suppose they could make it feel unique....but I don't see people say those sort of things were significant contributors to TDK's unique identity it has. Usually that comes from the story, tone, characterizations and relationships etc. Its stuff like that what stands out from other Batman movies. Like when we compared it to Burton's back in the day. Batman being the focus of the movies this time. Bruce Wayne being socialite and having a whole playboy persona to hide his Batman identity. Gordon actually being significant and having a personality and friendship with Batman. The Joker feeling entirely unique in almost every way to Nicholson's version. Seeing the impact Batman had on Gotham itself etc. All things that stood out and made the Nolan movies feel like their own thing from Burton's.

Gordon being more hands on with the crime scenes with Batman definitely felt different to previous Batman movies. So did Batman finding his purpose. That was good too. That whole sub plot with Martha Wayne having mental problems.....it didn't really go anywhere. Bruce thought his father was corrupt for half an hour until Alfred tells him he wasn't. That's that. It was over. So mentioning it felt pointless and added nothing.

 

[shauner111]

He still thinks he’s corrupt because he is. He never said he suddenly agrees with what his father did. Alfred simply made him understand that it’s not just black or white.

Martha having mental issues tied into why Thomas made that move. The very move that changed Gotham forever because it triggered a domino effect with Falcone and the city. It also explains Bruce’s issues.

The little things in TDK added to it, and made it have its own identity. Same with the little touches in The Batman. IMO there’s just as many things in The Batman that made it stand out to me as there were in TDK. “Another ballroom dance between Selina and Bruce ughh. Joker standing in the middle of the street begging Batman to hit him and then Batman missed...ughh both been done before by Burton. Two Face falling to his death with Batman being responsible..” It’s all about context and execution. TDK trilogy did things that were reminiscent to Burton and Schumacher. Reeves did some stuff that was reminiscent of Nolan’s movies. And the next one will do stuff that feels like a riff on Reeves.

I don’t mind any of that as long as it works in the context of this story. And imo there was enough in The Batman that felt super fresh. If you’re gonna say “we’ve seen a gangster in a club before” I mean...that doesn’t mean much to me. So Batman movies shouldn’t have gangsters in clubs anymore? TDK didn’t invent that. Reeves didn’t either. It’s a huge part of the source material and it’ll be repeated many times. The way it was done with Oz, the design of the club, the context of Selina and Batman inside of said club, the undercover scenes there with the contact lenses (which btw was super original and creative but nobody wants to mention that lol).

If Oz had the umbrella weapons peeps would be saying it’s been done before haha. Can’t win. He’s not fully formed as The Penguin yet, which is why he’s getting his own show (plus the good word of mouth about his performance). For my money, he oozed Cobblepot without those things. That’s saying a lot about the makeup design, the way Colin carried himself , the way they dressed him up. Now imagine him with all the classic Penguin iconography once he embraces that insult/nickname? Gonna be bananas.

Heath’s Joker falls under serial killer technically I guess. But because he was more like a crazy anarchist who killed people out in the open without any care, I just never saw him as a serial killer in a traditional sense. Dano’s Riddler was the first time where I felt like I could be watching a horror movie with a masked serial killer picking people off in the shadows while Batman tries to find out who he is and why he’s doing what he’s doing.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

All I will say is that I was hyped AF for The Batman. I was ready to push the Dark Knight Trilogy to the bin and embrace this new incarnation (though, I eventually realized that there's more than enough room for both!), as it's a little more aesthetically/atmospherically what I want in a Batman adaptation.

However, last night I popped in The Batman for the first time since seeing it the sixth time in the theater in late March...and I felt nothing.

It's a gorgeous film, it sounds amazing, looks amazing, feels amazing. But there's just no meat or substance to it, for me. I feel no connection to anyone in the film. It feels like I'm missing a first film or something.

It expects some emotional beats to land but I feel nothing because I've no connection to these new versions of the characters. I'm 100% in favor of not seeing Batman's origins again and such - but if you're gonna not take that easy route, the route you DO take has to still find a way to hook me into caring for these characters.

And some plot elements just don't go anywhere. Bruce learning that his father was corrupt? After learning the news, Bruce goes from quiet/dark and depressed...to quiet/dark and depressed. It doesn't change him. And then they reverse-Uno that news 10 minutes after an awesome scene with Falcone (God BLESS that John Turturro, he killed it in this role).

The film also gets credit for 'finally' having Detective Batman, which I don't think it deserves credit for. Batman uses a flashlight at crime-scenes, yes - but Alfred, Penguin, Martinez and others solve more of the actual ciphers/riddles than he does, by far. I think the film's hype-train wrote checks on Detective Batman that the film didn't cash.

And the film felt like a mish-mash of prior Batman films.

Stuff like that brings it down, for me.

The film is dark - but it's...I hate to say it - self-parody level dark, at times. Reminds me of what LEGO Batman was saying about how dark he and his stories are, except this film played it straight. Even the hospital room Alfred is staying in is dark.

I'm not 'nostalgic' for the Nolan films because up until The Batman inspired me to revisit them, I'd washed my hands of them for almost a decade. But each of those films, when revisiting, made me FEEL something.

The Batman leaves me empty. I really, really wish it didn't. It's all style, and lacks substance.

But, great sequels can elevate that film, so here's hoping. I just know that the first entries with Burton and Nolan stood on their own, so this is a rocky start for Reeves in my mind.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

Batman Begins, The Dark Knight and The Dark Knight Rises felt wholly original - so much so that they changed the genre of not only superhero films, but blockbusters as a whole.

The Batman just didn't feel original.

Which is a shame because there is a lot that can be done with Batman, especially to make his films more faithful to the gist and majority of the source material, that could make it feel fresh.

The Animated Series feels fresh and wholly original to this day, for instance. There is a lot to do with Batman that hasn't been done before on live-action film.

It bums me out that I feel Reeves chose a road already traveled and didn't even do it as well.

The Batman already feels forgotten, sadly.

 

[The Joker]

He doesn't think he's corrupt. When Alfred told him the truth that he never wanted anyone hurt, he just wanted Falcone to threaten the journalist about revealing Martha's illness, just scare him off, and had planned to turn himself and Falcone in when he found out Falcone killed the journalist instead, Bruce accepted that as his father not being a bad guy. Once that's cleared up its not an issue for the rest of the movie. Its something that rears its head mid way through the movie and is settled half an hour later.

Joker standing in the middle of the street asking Batman to hit him, Two Face falling to his death, Bruce and Selina having a dance.....these are moments in the movie. Like a nod or a homage. Nothing more. When people talk about retreading territory they don't mean things like that. They're talking about major plot points like a villain attacking Gotham with something again, or Catwoman having a personal beef with a wealthy big bad, or a serial killer villain. These are all things we've seen before. That's not a criticism. Every Batman does and always will retread familiar ground. For example we've seen Batmobile chases before. That doesn't mean we should never see them again in any Batman movie. In fact the one with the Penguin in The Batman is one of the more praised parts of the movie and justly so.

I do agree with what you said about how execution of something can make a difference. Like how an idea on paper can sound iffy or stupid, but can actually work if executed properly. That's why repetition in movies often works because it can be executed well. Your point was saying they were doing things that made The Batman feel unique. Well a lot of what you mentioned didn't really feel unique to The Batman for some people because, as already discussed, we've seen it in some form before. But that's ok. Not every Batman movie is expected to reinvent the wheel. That's why I don't believe anyone would have criticized Penguin for having umbrella weapons just because we saw it before. That's the character. We expect to see it no matter how many times they have done it. You give us the Penguin, then there's expectations that come with him and his trademark umbrella weapons is one of them. Like we expect Batman to have a cape and cowl, Batmobile, gadgets, Batsignal, Wayne Manor etc. The point about the Penguin was not what he has the potential to become, but what he was in The Batman. What we got was a shady gangster in a sleazy club. Not dis-similar to what we've seen before. I hope and have total faith in Reeves to deliver a full fledged Penguin with all the fine touches that make him the iconic villain he is. But again only judging him now on what we got.

Serial killing is serial killing. Serial killers in real life often operated in different styles. Some taunted the Police, some tried to remain anonymous as possible, some would kill with a regularity, some would go months or even years before killing again, some only target specific types of victims etc. But its still being a serial killer. Joker being more flamboyant and showy about it fits with the character. That's the Joker. He's a showman. He likes the limelight. Riddler being more low key with mystery to his motives fits with Riddler. There's supposed to be mystery because he's the Riddler. He challenges Batman to figure his plan out. But they're both still slaughtering people. Just using different styles to do it because they are different personas and psyches.

For me personally what made The Batman feel like its own beast was Batman finding his purpose. Every other Batman knew why they were in it to be Batman. This one was figuring it out even though he was 2 years on the job. I liked that angle.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

When people talk about retreading territory they don't mean things like that.

They also mean stuff like the major villain sending videos of himself with his victims to the news in order to intimidate and send a message to Gotham.

 

[antsman41]

..which means TDK "ripped off" B'89 - in your words.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

..which means TDK "ripped off" B'89 - in your words.

No, but besides that point, people expected far fresher things from The Batman.

Batman has had so many reboots and each one must do newer things than the last to justify its existence, really.

And it's not just Batman. All reboots have to work hard to justify their existence.

Spider-Man is a good example, too.

 

[BatLobster]

Our boy looks good on the tube!

 

[Gothamsknight]

Our boy looks good on the tube!

Yeah, I can relate to Bale here in that I really have no idea hahaha.

 

[Blade Hoarder]

That Wakanda forever trailer was oddly emotional. It’s the best superhero movie trailer I’ve seen in quite a while. Hope the movie lives up to it. And Mesoamerican Namor? Sign me the F up.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Some of my nitpicks with The Batman isn't really indicative of the quality of the movie. I do have some issues with the movies plot, length, and lack of character depth for some, but I do still think it's a really solid movie and Batman adaption. For me though, at this stage in my life, This type of Batman isn't one I'm particularly drawn too. The rebellious, grunge/emo angst feels juvenile to me as I'm pushing 30, and am past that sort of mindset. I relate more to a more heroic and inspirational type of Batman now, and I feel more close and related to Bales version than any other point in my life. to be fair, The Batman did end on a heroic note but I'm talking specifically the way this first film in Reeves trilogy has presented itself. I'm hoping for a more matured Batman in the next flick.

 

[Rick190293]

I know this might sound controversial, but I'm still all in for a more fantastical Bats. Logically, I think this was the way to go after Nolan. If only the Snyderverse wasn't so 'damaged'...

 

[OnLeatherWings]

I know this might sound controversial, but I'm still all in for a more fantastical Bats. Logically, I think this was the way to go after Nolan.

I agree 100% and it's where I was hoping Reeves would go.

It would've been the easiest way for Reeves to set himself apart and also be even more faithful to the Batman mythos.

I really feel like 'realistic' Batman is too safe of a route for film, too.

 

[Rick190293]

I agree 100% and it's where I was hoping Reeves would go.

It would've been the easiest way for Reeves to set himself apart and also be even more faithful to the Batman mythos.

I really feel like 'realistic' Batman is too safe of a route for film, too.

Yes!
I understand that snyderverse's failure might scared WB, and they're playing safe now, but I'd insist in a different approach, even throught I'm very satisfied withThe Batman's world and asthetics (the opening montage/monologue is perfection).

 

[The Joker]

They should know the fantastical elements of Snyderverse are not what made it bad.

 

[Blade Hoarder]

Yeah. The Batman feels like a movie that should’ve come out in the mid to late 00’s. Part of the reason it feels so dry to me.

The new black Panther movie trailer puts everything in perspective. We’re about to get a Wakanda vs mesoamerican influenced Atlantis. The whole thing is just so bonkers. And the representation of different people off the charts. And Batman is back to year one. The whiplash is huge.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Wanakda Forevers trailer impressed the hell out of me.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

They should know the fantastical elements of Snyderverse are not what made it bad.

To the bean counters, it's guilt by association.

Correlation being causation.