The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - Part 156

[The Batman]

Who decides what encompasses all the core aspects of a character?

Who decides that The Batman is a more comic accurate version of Batman than DCAU or the Arkham games?

Amazing how little the most forceful fans have to say once they meet the smallest of pushback.

I mean, I've faced worse pushback then this. And those posters weren't nearly as smug about it.

What do you want me to say? If that's how you felt about it...ok. That aspect of your post was a nothing burger and didn't really merit much of a response.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Who decides that The Batman is a more accurate version of Batman than DCAU or the Arkham games?
I mean, I've faced worse pushback then this. And those posters weren't nearly as smug about it.

What do you want me to say? If that's how you felt about it...ok. That aspect of your post was a nothing burger and didn't really merit much of a response.

Like DK's, which you also avoided.

While the era of the Snyder Cult was particularly putrid, the general vibe of Batman fans has always been not great. And it's because so many decide their preferences equal some sort of objective idea of quality and faithfulness. The latter being used as a stick to try and beat fans of other takes on the character do to a general insecurity in the fanbase. Ironic considering the Caped Crusaders general success.

I would consider The Batman to be "more faithful" as it matches far more of Batman I've read and seen. But that's irrelevant. It's every bit as Batman as Nolan's take, or Burton's take, or Finger's take, or Morrison's take, etc.

Folks just need to admit when they simply prefer a take as opposed to try and hold it up the idea of false objective measurables to try and prove their favorites superior. Want to do that? Go watch sports.

 

[The Batman]

Like DK's, which you also avoided.

If I actually wanted to avoid either of you, I wouldn't have responded in the first place.

 

[The Joker]

Its not just Batman fans that do this. It happens across all the fan bases. I vividly remember back in 2010 when it was announced that Raimi's Spider-Man movies were over and a reboot was happening, suddenly everyone was s**ting on the Raimi movies. Even the beloved Spider-Man 2. Its what I call the fanboy cycle. Trash the previous version so the newer version will look superior.

The most ridiculous it got for me was when Jared Leto's Joker look was revealed with the grills, the stupid tattoos, the bling bling jewelry etc and people were propping it up by saying its a big improvement over Ledger's grungy make up and scars look. Those people may have legit believed it, but instead of praising the Leto look for what they think was good about it, they had to poop on the previous Joker (the one who was the only threat to the new version's popularity).

 

[The Joker]

I like gliding and putting people into electrical boxes. But Arkham is definitely not where I go to for characterization. Because outside of Joker and the Riddler... no bueno.

Outside of Origins. I actually quite enjoy the characters in Origins.

Arkham Origins legit had some great character writing and development. By far the best of the games in that regard.

I also preferred a lot of the character designs. Especially the women. Rocksteady would have had the likes of Sheva having her boobs hanging out.

 

[BatLobster]

I think part of what gets lost in the translation of all this stuff is how we’re defining terms. What does “faithful” even mean? Does it mean literal translation of the source material? Does it mean taking it seriously? Does it mean staying true to the core ideas, themes and characters? Depends who you ask. Especially when we’re talking about a character/story that constantly has evolved over time and been taken in radically different directions and tones in its original medium of comics.

If we ever somehow reached the Most Definitive™ movie adaptation of the character, that everyone magically agreed was “perfect”- then what would even be the point of ever making more movies? For me, that’s part of the joy of Batman as a franchise. We’ve gotten to see so many cool versions, and they’re all valid and have left their imprint on the character. I say we’re better off for that. I think a lot of fans have a definitive Batman in our heads and we just gravitate to the versions that get closest to that. Though tbh, my love for the Nolan films has more to do with how it changed my perception of a Batman movie and shot past a lot of my preconceived (admittedly childhood-based) notions of what that could even be, while still giving me a lot of what I wanted at the same time. Dark Knight Rises and its ending flat out transformed what the Batman story even means to me. The films had a profound and powerful effect on me, so I inevitably feel a bias when comparing any other future versions. I’m aware of it, but can’t help it. So yeah, for me it’s super personal which is why I don’t like getting bogged down into “this is true Batman and this is false Batman” kinda stuff. Though I do dislike when bad faith arguments are made, or the people making those kinds of claims clearly ignore or are ignorant of the full history of the character to tear something down.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

Folks just need to admit when they simply prefer a take as opposed to try and hold it up the idea of false objective measurables to try and prove their favorites superior.

This is the same point I was making on the previous page.

But seems when it comes from you, it's less contested.

I agree though.

 

[The Batman]

This is the same point I was making on the previous page.

But seems when it comes from you, it's less contested.

IMO, Some people just had an underlying bone to pick.

Most of the people who regularly come to this thread already agree with or said that particular point.

 

[Awest66]

Batman can be filtered so through a lot of different lenses and I appreciate what every take brings to the characters overall legacy

 

[OnLeatherWings]

If anyone in this thread does not have this book - you really need to get it. Not the mini-version that came with one of the DVD/BR box-sets, the full 304 page version.

It has a lovely forward by Christopher Nolan and Michael Caine.

But the photos and the artwork, along with the copy cataloging the making of all three films is just awesome.

 

[The Joker]

I have that book. Its terrific. Really insightful.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

I have that book. Its terrific. Really insightful.

I'd love an updated version because some aspects felt like they were holding back to avoid spoiling The Dark Knight Rises, as this book released early June 2012.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

It's absolutely insane and ballsy that this film focuses more on tying to Batman Begins than The Dark Knight. Nolan could've ignored the first film entirely and audiences would've been fine with that, but he goes more back to the original film for emotional beats and story threads. He doesn't ignore the second film at all, of course. But this film feels more like the first than the second.

Still, he really ties each of the previous two films up so well here, making them a complete unit.

Even visually, a lot of this film shares DNA with the first film. Even the indoor sets feel grimier again and darker.

It's also crazy to me that each Nolan film has parts of the story take place internationally; primarily Asia.

I think my only real issue with this film is that the peace-time/Dent Act stuff feels a bit clunky. And I'd have loved more hints as to what Batman got up to before he hung up the cape the first time.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

Something hit me when I watched it recently that adds yet another huge piece of evidence that Bruce continued as Batman for some time after The Dark Knight.

During his conversation with Fox, Fox jokes that their conversations usually would end with an unusual request (for something Batman related).

Bruce's reactor project at Wayne Enterprises failed only 3 years prior to Rises. Which obviously Bruce was working with Fox during that time, of course.

Why would Fox make that 'unusual request' comment if Bruce hadn't been asking him for help with Batman in 5 whole years at the time of the reactor? And in the additional 3 since he last saw him?

If he hadn't been asking in the years since Knight - Fox wouldn't think anything of their meeting in Rises not ending with an unusual request at this point. He'd have known that Bruce has been retired since 8 years prior...unless he wasn't yet for a long time and he was asking for help somewhat regularly up until he reactor failing.

This tells me that Bruce going into hiding correlated quite closely with him ceasing all actions as Batman. Since Fox's comment only makes sense if Bruce was still asking for Batman-related favors close to the time the reactor failed. Batman felt useless - and now Bruce Wayne, too. So, time for a depression beard, cane and mason jars.

How active Batman was in the 5 years after Knight is up to headcanon.

But definitely something I hadn't noticed until now.

(For anyone wanting to read up more on the timeline of TDKT and how many years Bruce was Batman roughly, check out these threads -)

 

[OnLeatherWings]

I feel like I see people clowning on Talia's death online in various spaces almost daily.

What more is there to say about it? Am I alone in thinking it's been blown way out of proportion?

 

[Rick190293]

Never bothered me at all. Just like Batman's voice. People likes to overhate TDK trilogy just because it's high quality.

 

[BatLobster]

I feel like I see people clowning on Talia's death online in various spaces almost daily.

What more is there to say about it? Am I alone in thinking it's been blown way out of proportion?

Always felt it was wayyyy blown out of proportion. But the thing is, even if you concede that it's a weird moment...it's literally a blink and you miss it moment. Then we move straight into one of the greatest endings of all time for any superhero saga. It is what it is, people love low-hanging fruit to bash on.

Seriously though, don't let it get to you. It's just one of those things, people like to participate on the meme and feel included. It is kinda sad if stuff like that prevents people from enjoying a very awesome movie, but c'est la vie. Their loss.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

Seriously though, don't let it get to you. It's just one of those things, people like to participate on the meme and feel included.

It's more me being offended as a fan of humour. I realize this film is widely hated so I think that's why they beat a dead horse - but man, can't they be funnier?

Akin to Seinfeld when he goes "I'm not offended as a Jewish person, I'm offended as a comedian" about Tim Whatley's religious jokes.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

Over the last 2 years, I've made a point of buying 1/6 scale Hot Toys of each of my favourite film Batmen. Christian Bale's Batman was the first one I bought - the DX19. Love him.

However, I saw the 1/4 scale figure in person and was blown away by it. I got the itch to buy him - and I loved the idea of having this figure bigger than the others because I love this series so much and this suit, in particular.

Bought him off a guy for about $400. He barely had him 2 months. He is incredible - no regrets, at all.

Highly recommended if you love large-scale action figures/statues.

 

[titansupes]

It's more me being offended as a fan of humour. I realize this film is widely hated so I think that's why they beat a dead horse - but man, can't they be funnier?

Akin to Seinfeld when he goes "I'm not offended as a Jewish person, I'm offended as a comedian" about Tim Whatley's religious jokes.

"Widely hated" is crazy.

It had a target on its back because of Tall Poppy Syndrome, and it was right around the time internet criticism started taking off and being insufferable clickbait. So it can feel like that sometimes. But it's a very, very well received movie that doesn't quite manage to reach the expectations set by it's iconic, instant classic predecessor. But **** me it came closer than it had any right to get.

So no, not widely hated in the slightest. It's just what a vocal minority would like people to believe. It's like the inverse of BvS, where a vocal minority is swearing up and down that the movie was a secretly beloved masterpiece that was conspired against by... nearly everybody who had the misfortune to see it.

 

[flickchick85]

Forget "widely hated," I'd say this thing isn't even "narrowly" hated. Even the majority of the people clowning on Talia's death don't hate this movie. Most would agree it's better-made than 90% of the other CBM's out there. It was a well-received finale, just widely acknowledged to not be as good as its predecessor. But when your predecessor is most commonly referred to as the very peak of the genre, that's really not even a slight.

 

[BatLobster]

I actually gave Rises a good ol’ watch in 4k with the wife last night. It was my birthday weekend so she let me pick . It took us like 8 months or so but we finally completed a trilogy rewatch. For context, she loves TDK and we’ve watched it together countless times, but I’m pretty sure she’d only seen Begins and Rises like once each until now so it was fun to sort of vicariously watch those with fresh eyes.

I’ll say, on this watch some of my nits and picks showed a little more for me, probably because I was just hoping my wife would dig the movie lol. Mainly for me it’s just when the dialogue gets a little expository, and it’s because there’s so much plot the movie is setting up, especially in the first half. A “necessary evil” you could say I guess. But when the movie deals with its themes, emotional arcs, and lets the visuals shine, it absolutely soars IMO. Obviously an absolute stunner in 4k.

TL;DR, she enjoyed it. Phew! She did say it was a bit long, but also said she was engaged the whole time and entertained. Plus we started it a bit late. Also, she giggled at various goofy moments throughout the film, but Talia’s death scene didn’t register as anything noteworthy. FWIW!

I still just love how gutsy this movie is. To this day, I find it kind of insane how big of a swing it is, especially with really how different a genre it is from TDK. The post-apocalyptic imagery is really exquisitely done. Once Bane’s siege happens, this movie drops small background details like people gathered around a fire inside an abandoned bank like it’s nothing, and keeps hitting you with haunting details like that. Incredible production design. I could easily watch a full miniseries about Bane’s Gotham, but the way it’s executed in the movie is all just really solid world-building that flips everything built up for 2 1/2 films totally on its head. The demolition of all the bridges looks frighteningly real. This movie blows up a LOT of stuff, but the the way it’s pulled off is such a clear contrast to the typical destruction porn of most CBMs. It maintains a level of photorealism that just doesn’t exist anywhere else in the genre. Powerful stuff. Really need to see this movie on an IMAX screen again someday.

Also @OnLeatherWings, sick collection of Batmen! They all look so accurate.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

@OnLeatherWings[/USER], sick collection of Batmen! They all look so accurate.

They're definitely worth having. I am not a collectibles person - I don't have a lot of memorabilia or toys around the house. But these were definitely a no-regrets type thing.

The one that really surprised me was Adam West. I think he's the oldest figure of the bunch, but I was wow'd with his headsculpt when I got him.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

I feel like I see people clowning on Talia's death online in various spaces almost daily.

What more is there to say about it? Am I alone in thinking it's been blown way out of proportion?

Here's the thing: It's unintentionally hilarious but that isn't an actual problem. There's a lot of unintentional comedy in the Nolan movies that is just part of the Vibe - the background actors are often terrible, some of the obvious Goyer dialogue is rough, Bale's voice is terribly blown out of proportion but obviously there are moments where its a legitimate problem. But they're amazing movies and those parts are part of the whole package, so I'd never want to change them.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

I actually gave Rises a good ol’ watch in 4k with the wife last night. It was my birthday weekend so she let me pick . It took us like 8 months or so but we finally completed a trilogy rewatch. For context, she loves TDK and we’ve watched it together countless times, but I’m pretty sure she’d only seen Begins and Rises like once each until now so it was fun to sort of vicariously watch those with fresh eyes.

It's fascinating to me that there are people who only have one touchstone film in a film series. I know a lot of people who only know/like one Indiana Jones film, or they only rewatch the original Star Wars film, only like Terminator 2, etc.

Nothing wrong with it. But as a geek, I cannot compute that, at the same time.

TL;DR, she enjoyed it. Phew! She did say it was a bit long, but also said she was engaged the whole time and entertained. Plus we started it a bit late. Also, she giggled at various goofy moments throughout the film, but Talia’s death scene didn’t register as anything noteworthy. FWIW!

Talia's death scene didn't bother me at all when I first saw the film. I imagine that with the way that truck landed, her pelvic girdle likely went up into her rib cage so I figured she was properly wrecked at that point, hence her awkward body and speech.

I still just love how gutsy this movie is. To this day, I find it kind of insane how big of a swing it is, especially with really how different a genre it is from TDK. The post-apocalyptic imagery is really exquisitely done. Once Bane’s siege happens, this movie drops small background details like people gathered around a fire inside an abandoned bank like it’s nothing, and keeps hitting you with haunting details like that. Incredible production design. I could easily watch a full miniseries about Bane’s Gotham, but the way it’s executed in the movie is all just really solid world-building that flips everything built up for 2 1/2 films totally on its head. The demolition of all the bridges looks frighteningly real. This movie blows up a LOT of stuff, but the the way it’s pulled off is such a clear contrast to the typical destruction porn of most CBMs. It maintains a level of photorealism that just doesn’t exist anywhere else in the genre. Powerful stuff. Really need to see this movie on an IMAX screen again someday.

I agree - it is really gutsy and takes some big swings when it could've likely coasted a bit more on the goodwill of the series. And for the most part, it hits each one, for me.

It really made Bruce a moving protagonist and someone to root for. The jump to get out of the pit is a God-tier scene in comic book history.

There's dialogue quirks and some story beats I could've gone without. But it's such a moving, impactful Bruce Wayne and Gotham story - my gripes don't matter.

I second your mini-series comment. I really hope someday we get some comic book mini-series for this trilogy. I'd love a Batman fighting crime on the run while the Dent Act takes hold for a couple years and showing him finally hanging up the cape.

And a series set in Gotham during Bane's reign would be awesome.

There's a lot of untapped story for a comics run for this trilogy. Even set in the years between the first and second film would be compelling.