Baneis8feettall
Half face half amazing
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2011
- Messages
- 2,427
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 31
I think "henchman or not" will be a debate like Bane's size t: And the motivations of course.
You know, one thing that i was wondering is why didn't Bane have any more visual scars and bruises on his body since he's much older than Bruce and I would assume that he's been doing his thing for much longer than Bruce has and we all know on how banged up Bruce was, but aside from needing the mask, Bane looked fine.
He had scars all over his head and a big one going down from his neck/spine. They didn't make it too obvious in the film though.
The reason for them attacking Gotham pre-Begins and TDKR is essentially the same, and can be summed up with the above quote. I've always understood the LOS's ideology in these films to be vaguely similar to those of actual terrorists, albeit presented in a more PC "ninja"-esque way.
@Guard:
I'm sorry, but I just don't agree with your assessment. At all.
Bane's and Talia's motivations are not weak. They are terrorists who sincerely believe that the destruction of Gotham (the actions they take in the process) will inspire citizens from all over the world to take the initiative and fight crime and corruption. Albeit, Bane, Talia and the remaining members of The League of Shadows aren't exactly just destroying Gotham and seeking a fight with Bruce/Batman for 'tribute' purposes (in the memory of Ra's al Ghul and their fallen brothers). This is also obviously personal for Bane, Talia and The League -- it's retribution. They wanted Bruce to watch in horror (while being hopeless in The Pit) as The League of Shadows burned Gotham (with its inhabitants) to the
ground.
Seriously, I don't see what's feeble about their motivations. Would you call Al-Qaeda's motivations weak as well simply because you're a non-believer and an 'infidel'? Of course, but these men and women are so misguided and/or consumed by rage and revenge that their convictions cannot be wavered or shaken. To them, it's more than enough to slaughter the innocent in order to serve a higher cause.
Bane? Bane wanted violent revolution. He didn't want simple changes in the way the politicians et. al. ran things; he wanted them to answer to the people they wronged *after* said people had been whipped into a frenzy. Bane was more militant than Ra's, a more demagogue than philosopher.
Agreed 110%. Ra's Al Ghul weren't against revenge as well. He says he had his revenge in BB and asks why Bruce didn't?He even comes back and burn Wayne Mayor down just like Bruce burned LOS temple.
Except that Bruce atually burned down Ra's Al Ghul's home, so Ra's wanting revenge for that action makes sense. Bruce killed, incapacitated and scattered Ra's Al Ghul's forces, so Ra's being pissed about that makes sense.
Bruce didn't actually kill Ra's Al Ghul.
And the things Talia was trying to justify destroying Gotham for...like Ra's thinking Bruce left him for dead, simply weren't true, and made no sense.
Not only is it the old cliche of revenge, but its not even a logical reason for it. Its based on a misunderstanding, which just gets ridiculous.
Bruce killed Ra's mission and himself (at least Talia thinks so).. She & Bane tried to kill everything Batman did and himself and also finish Ra's Al Ghul's mission. That's not so difficult to see. What Ra's Al Ghul wanted Bruce's worst nightmare. Fullfilling his destiny would be killing two birds with one stone.
It's not difficult to see. Its actually very simple. IE, it's very obvious, and its not terribly interesting writing, even though the writers tried to make it so with nonsensical "justifications" which is my whole point about Bane and Talia's plot. That it was simple, cliche, uninteresting, and derivative.
For all of Nolan's talk of trying to find a villain who wasn't derivative of Joker's traits, he ends up purposely making another villain derivative of Ra's Al Ghul's. Given what thread this is, I expect that many people won't agree with Guard's assessment, he is right nonetheless.
Yes. Actually, Bane was deriviative or not only Ra's Al Ghul, but also of The Joker in several respects. Which would have been fine...it would have been a full circle thing (and still is) IF he'd had some motivations of his own to boot. He didn't, though. "Hope breeds despair" is not an interesting enough concept to use without an actual exploration of it. The film sets it up, but never delivers on it.
So Bruce didn't betray the League of Shadows, defeat Ra's and stop his plan of destroying Gotham, and left him to die on the train? Because last I checked, Bruce did all of those things.
Bane and Talia's motivation to me was to complete the last work that their master didn't finish, and in the process, torture and defeat Batman.
And that's fine...but that's not all that Talia says its all about. She tries to justify it beyond being just about revenge, but her justifications don't make any logical sense. Half her motivations are just...nonsense. Its like she's a fanatical dimwit. IE, a crazy person...which is not that good a writing choice.
I did see that inspired hope in the criminals, which of course it would since they were free to roam. I do question if inspired or sparked something in the poor. Selina's friend actually seemed happy at what was going on while Selina saw it as the way it was.
Bane wasn't talking about inspiring hope in Gotham's criminals. He was talking about inspiring hope in those Bruce had hoped to protect...and then causing them to despair and destroying them.
If you're referring to the "You burnt my house and left me for dead. Consider us even." line, I agree. But I don't see how their revenge was derivative of that, as their reasons for revenge made more sense to me.
Because its the same type of "misunderstanding" leading to a character wanting revenge.
Ra's believed Bruce left him for dead, even though Bruce saved his life...even though he pretty much knew Bruce saved his life...
Talia believed Bruce killed Ra's Al Ghul, even though Bruce didn't.
For you, perhaps. But I never thought Nolan was really trying to "hide" anythiabout it. Bane never disputes that he wants to kill Bruce at some point, and seeing as he proclaims himself as the LOS, there to fulfill Ras Al Ghul's destiny, then it stands to reason he would also have a bone to pick about his death. I don't see what the secret is about?
They're trying, as writers, to flesh it out, to make it look like more than it is, which is simple revenge...but all they can come up with for justification falls apart upon analysis, makes no sense...and is illogical nonsense.
Furthermore, If you are to believe LOS as an organization is as powerful as Ras said they were in BB, then it shouldn't be that hard to believe that they could find out what's really going on in Gotham.
Obviously it was, because they clearly had the wrong information about the state Gotham was in.
Presumably it took Talia a good portion of time to infiltrate WE, which means she & Bane were probably coming for Bruce regardless of Gotham's state of being, as DoomsdayApex already pointed out. The plan could've, and probably needed to be, slowly implemented well before the city was clean for 8 years.
Destroying Gotham is just icing on the cake. Abu Musab al-Zarqawi pledged allegiance to Islam & Bin Laden too, but still went against them in certain regards. They even helped give up his whereabouts after he become anti Shia Islam, something Al-Qaeda didn't agree with. Bane was already described as radical in a sense, it stands to reason he & Talia could be extremists who, while loyal to LOS, have their own plan too, whether Gotham was crime free or not.
Except that this is not how its presented. At all.
Talia acts like there are good reasons to destroy Gotham. But they don't make any sense.
Especially if you consider the whole reason for Bruce rebelling against them in the first place, his inability to murder. Why would this man, who couldn't stay with the LOS because he couldn't murder, all of a sudden kill Ras Al Ghul, the cops & Harvey Dent, then disappear? If I were Bane or Talia, it would be enough to peek my interest to come to Gotham.
Too bad Talia never bothered to confirm Bruce killed her father.
You'd think Bruce would be like "I didn't kill your father. He sabotaged the controls".
I also think it fair to point out that corruption does not refer simply to organized crime. Just look at Daggett or, hell, Bruce's speech about the "fat spreads". Clearly corruption still thrives among the Gotham elite.
Then they should be destroying every city on the planet.
Which, frankly, they should be, based no the comic book mythology. They should be cleansing the Earth.
Dagget is one person. Who is only shown as being corrupt because of Bane's presence. That is not "corruption thriving" anymore than a single thief in a city is "rampant crime".
Oooooh, I see. So, the majority of the thread is wrong because you feel that this is a 'Bane' thread and anything that doesn't support your opinion is wrong (and is of biased sentiments). Duly noted. Ironically, I could just say that Guard's, Joker's and your motivations are weak simply because you weren't satisfied by what The Nolans wrote for the character.
No...the majority of this thread (as you describe them) is wrong because their arguments are illogical, or because they're trying to hold up lousy writing as good writing.
It's fine to LIKE the material. I can enjoy elements of it. It's another thing to consider it strong writing.
Again...their motivations are just incredibly weak. And most of what Bane and Talia say to justify their weakly, cliche-motivated actions is nonsense. Worse, it is all derivative of Ra’s Al Ghul’s own “revenge” motivations in BATMAN BEGINS, which were ALSO illogical nonsense, so its like, layers of weak writing.
Really, this argument is getting as tiresome as beastmode's 'Tom Hardy is too small they should have got Dwayne Johnson' BS over and over. Can we give it a rest?
No. We can't. I'm sorry that what was in the film and discussion of it bores you...but unfortunately, since the filmmakers didn't give us anything interesting to discuss about Bane and his plot, all we can discuss is the nature of it...which was cliche and weak...oh, and a few posters can make up backstory and motivations that we never got to see...and we can talk about what we would have liked to have seen...
I found Bane's voice to be utterly laughable for the most part, I just could never take him seriously. Only times his voice got perfect for me were parts of the first fight between Bane and Batman, and during their talk in the Pit.
Oh, its ridiculous. Its just...he's so into it, its so absurd that it often works. But its kind of hit or miss.
Bane is more sympathetic to me because he has done everything and went to great extents to plan a siege on an entire city out of love, and for the fact in a warped way he wants to redeem his life by protecting this little girl in a disgusting prison / pit. Yes, Bane's motivations are warped due to his alliegance and love to Talia, but all through out the film there is hints of his softer humanity.
And that's fine...but that's not all that Talia says its all about. She tries to justify it beyond being just about revenge, but her justifications don't make any logical sense. Half her motivations are just...nonsense. Its like she's a fanatical dimwit. IE, a crazy person...which is not that good a writing choice.
Bane wasn't talking about inspiring hope in Gotham's criminals. He was talking about inspiring hope in those Bruce had hoped to protect...and then causing them to despair and destroying them.
Because its the same type of "misunderstanding" leading to a character wanting revenge.
Ra's believed Bruce left him for dead, even though Bruce saved his life...even though he pretty much knew Bruce saved his life...
Talia believed Bruce killed Ra's Al Ghul, even though Bruce didn't.
The Guard believes what he see. Same arguments over and over again. So be it.There is no end in this argument for both sides.
I'm really disappointed that they "destroyed" Bane in the last act. From major thread to a love sick henchman. Lame. Apart from that I liked his portrayal. But he still wasn't that smart and brutal badass from the Knightfall saga.
The Guard believes what he see. Same arguments over and over again. So be it.There is no end in this argument for both sides.
It is. No doubt about that. But I would have preferred that there was no Talia twist in the end. And Bane would have been the one who escaped this prison. But that's a matter of taste I guess.