The Dark Knight Rises Why I think Rises will be better than TDK

[viciouscoy]

Any film that portrays crime well and gives me a narrative where I'm rooting for everyone, the bad guy included, is well written for me.

I'm not so sure that TDKR will go that route; Bane is likely to do some really terrible things to Bruce and Batman. I caught myself laughing at the Joker's dry humor and tearing up at Harvey's heartbreak, but I really wonder if Bane will have any such humanizing quality. By the third act, I'm convinced everyone in the theater will feel repulsed, disgusted beyond words. The masked man may bring us all to the brink of begging Bats to kill.

 

[BlueLantern]

I'm not so sure that TDKR will go that route; Bane is likely to do some really terrible things to Bruce and Batman. I caught myself laughing at the Joker's dry humor and tearing up at Harvey's heartbreak, but I really wonder if Bane will have any such humanizing quality. By the third act, I'm convinced everyone in the theater will feel repulsed, disgusted beyond words. The masked man may bring us all to the brink of begging Bats to kill.

I'd still cheer for his cause. Someone has to.

 

[viciouscoy]

In the prologue at least, he seems like a charismatic mofo.

 

[Gianakin_]

It would be enough if the movie made me feel something (anything) for the villain or his cause. If it can make me genuinely hate him instead of just thinking Batman should beat him because he's the bad guy and that's what he does, then I'll be more than happy.

 

[viciouscoy]

It would be enough if the movie made me feel something (anything) for the villain or his cause. If it can make me genuinely hate him instead of just thinking Batman should beat him because he's the bad guy and that's what he does, then I'll be more than happy.

Same here. Given the escalation that occurred in TDK - Joker murdering Rachel, Dent shooting Bats in the gut - it's likely that Nolan will push things way farther with Bane in order to get that emotional reaction out of the audience. Alfred, Lucius, Gordon - no one is safe.

 

[Naite22]

Sigh. TDK was so much more than just The Joker.

For me personally it will be hard for TDKR to top TDK. But that doesn't mean it can't be brilliant and amazing.

True true... HARD, yes. Impossible? Heeell No!

 

[jmc]

I don't know if Rises will be better than TDK. I think the main reason TDK will still come out on top one way or the other for me and other people is simply because it's Batman vs The Joker, biggest hero vs greatest villain, and the outcome was more than any of us could have hoped for. Rises may reach a scale the likes of which hasn't been seen yet in the series, Bane may very well be a better and more terrifying villain, but ultimately it's going to be hard to remove one of the greatest Batman and Joker showdowns in any medium off the top of the list. I think given that Nolan seems to continually improve and learn from each film he makes Rises could very well be a better movie, but I struggle to believe that it will feel the same or even have the same significance as TDK for the fans.

 

[Naite22]

The only thing that's been lacking a bit in Nolans pictures, is his movies always feeling just a tad wee bit "cold". Like he has yet to bring on a full emotional warmth to his touch. It's hard to pin down... anyway, this is where I hope "Rises" will bring it! I really really wanna feel tears during this movie. I mean along with all the rest which is already brilliant! I'm hoping that Nolan will aim straight for the heart this time around!

 

[Naite22]

I don't know if Rises will be better than TDK. I think the main reason TDK will still come out on top one way or the other for me and other people is simply because it's Batman vs The Joker, biggest hero vs greatest villain, and the outcome was more than any of us could have hoped for. Rises may reach a scale the likes of which hasn't been seen yet in the series, Bane may very well be a better and more terrifying villain, but ultimately it's going to be hard to remove one of the greatest Batman and Joker showdowns in any medium off the top of the list. I think given that Nolan seems to continually improve and learn from each film he makes Rises could very well be a better movie, but I struggle to believe that it will feel the same or even have the same significance as TDK for the fans.

I agree... But I have this feeling that Nolan is going to make some huge connection between Bane and Batman, that'll go straight to the heart. We'll see.

 

[Mandalore464]

I still prefer Batman Begins over TDK, and I think TDKR will be closer to the former than to the latter (only judging from what I've seen and heard, which isn't much...).

So I'd say there's a fair chance TDKR will top TDK, for me at least.

 

[El Payaso]

I still prefer Batman Begins over TDK, and I think TDKR will be closer to the former than to the latter (only judging from what I've seen and heard, which isn't much...).

So I'd say there's a fair chance TDKR will top TDK, for me at least.

Thing with BB is that it barely had villaiins. Sure, the amount is something: Scarecrow, Ra's, Falcone. But they were little roles that came and went, the focus was on Bruce. But with Joker and Two-Face that was not possible anymore, nor I think it'll be possible with Bane and Catwoman. It was easier to tell the origin of the story with many little villiains than the rest, because when the main character is established then you keep the story mkoving with the villiains.

 

[Mandalore464]

Thing with BB is that it barely had villaiins. Sure, the amount is something: Scarecrow, Ra's, Falcone. But they were little roles that came and went, the focus was on Bruce. But with Joker and Two-Face that was not possible anymore, nor I think it'll be possible with Bane and Catwoman. It was easier to tell the origin of the story with many little villiains than the rest, because when the main character is established then you keep the story mkoving with the villiains.

I agree to a certain extent. It's true that it's easier to put the focus on Bruce in an origin story, that's first and foremost about how he came to be. But it's not necessarily true that including Joker and Two-Face prevented Nolan to do it again in TDK.

The stakes were as high in Begins as they were in TDK. In both cases, Gotham was facing total destruction. But in one case it was through the use of Scarecrow's fear gas, and in the other it was through the influence of a madman trying to wreak havoc and have people give up on all hope of saving themselves through order and unity.

Now, Scarecrow happens to be my favourite Bat-villain, and if the Joker is the ultimate archnemesis in the bat's gallery of rogues, Ra's al Ghul is certainly the most influent and the most dangerous if you only look at numbers (Joker often threatens the lives of Gothamites, but Ra's very often tries to take over/destroy the whole world).

So in a way (my way) Begins had greater villains. Not fan favourites perhaps -if you compare them to Joker and Two-Face- but great anyway. And yet it managed to keep the focus on Bruce.

I hope TDKR will do the same by having Bruce face a level of threat that's so above everything he's ever faced and hurts him on such a deep personal level, that the movie will end up being about him and what he is, rather than being about "this new threat that has to be stopped".

 

[El Payaso]

I agree to a certain extent. It's true that it's easier to put the focus on Bruce in an origin story, that's first and foremost about how he came to be. But it's not necessarily true that including Joker and Two-Face prevented Nolan to do it again in TDK.

Apparently not the same way he did in BB. After all, the first 8 minutes are pure Joker and the climax is pure Two-Face and Gordon's family.

Now, Scarecrow happens to be my favourite Bat-villain, and if the Joker is the ultimate archnemesis in the bat's gallery of rogues, Ra's al Ghul is certainly the most influent and the most dangerous if you only look at numbers (Joker often threatens the lives of Gothamites, but Ra's very often tries to take over/destroy the whole world).

I didn't pretend to make it look like Ra's is not important. But he (the fake one) was there for a few scenes and then when we finally know who he is, he's there only for the finale.

So in a way (my way) Begins had greater villains. Not fan favourites perhaps -if you compare them to Joker and Two-Face- but great anyway. And yet it managed to keep the focus on Bruce.

Being great is not the point but how much screentime they got. Ra's was missing the whole second act.

I hope TDKR will do the same by having Bruce face a level of threat that's so above everything he's ever faced and hurts him on such a deep personal level, that the movie will end up being about him and what he is, rather than being about "this new threat that has to be stopped".

I feel Bane will have a major relevance in this one, above "the threat of the week." At least it looks like it.

 

[Black Ink]

*Irrelevant post is irrelevant

 

[Mandalore464]

Apparently not the same way he did in BB. After all, the first 8 minutes are pure Joker and the climax is pure Two-Face and Gordon's family.

Because Nolan chose to do it that way.

He could have done it like Begins and make it a story that's only about Bruce Wayne / Batman, but decided not to. The inclusion of the Joker and Two-Face had nothing to do with it, it was only Nolan's decision.

A director is the master of his story, not the other way around. Just because you opt to write a Batman story with those two major villains does not mean you have to write it about them.

That's all I was saying.

 

[gugumugats]

I agree to a certain extent. It's true that it's easier to put the focus on Bruce in an origin story, that's first and foremost about how he came to be. But it's not necessarily true that including Joker and Two-Face prevented Nolan to do it again in TDK.

The stakes were as high in Begins as they were in TDK. In both cases, Gotham was facing total destruction. But in one case it was through the use of Scarecrow's fear gas, and in the other it was through the influence of a madman trying to wreak havoc and have people give up on all hope of saving themselves through order and unity.

Now, Scarecrow happens to be my favourite Bat-villain, and if the Joker is the ultimate archnemesis in the bat's gallery of rogues, Ra's al Ghul is certainly the most influent and the most dangerous if you only look at numbers (Joker often threatens the lives of Gothamites, but Ra's very often tries to take over/destroy the whole world).

So in a way (my way) Begins had greater villains. Not fan favourites perhaps -if you compare them to Joker and Two-Face- but great anyway. And yet it managed to keep the focus on Bruce.

I hope TDKR will do the same by having Bruce face a level of threat that's so above everything he's ever faced and hurts him on such a deep personal level, that the movie will end up being about him and what he is, rather than being about "this new threat that has to be stopped".

I was scared that this thread would devolve into mindless arguments, but I'm glad somebody brought up this point. One of my big worries about TDK when it was first announced was that the threat of the Joker would not compare to that of Scarecrow/Ra's in Begins. This worry was also exacerbated when got ahold of rumors/spoilers that the climax would take place in a tenement (compared to Begins where Batman had to stop a runaway train on its way to deliver a fear-gas chemical attack on all of Gotham). In order for TDK to match up to BB, I speculated that Joker would either use a Joker venom that ‘s a derivative of fear gas to attack all of Gotham OR Joker would somehow create an army of lunatics from fear-gassed victims of the Narrows (what happened to these guys?!?)

However, after seeing TDK, I realized that Joker very nearly succeeded where Scarecrow/Ra’s failed using only a couple of barrels of gas and some home-made bombs. Plus the stakes were higher in that while Ra’s only wanted to raze Gotham, Joker had more ideological statements to make and was out to destroy Gotham’s soul rather than Gotham itself. In a way, this is what makes Joker a great villain. Instead of acting as a physical threat (one of people’s many complaints about the Joker), he really tests the Batman and really makes him doubt himself. Plus, why would it be important if the audience never felt that Batman was in danger? The Joker succeeded in killing one of his loved ones.

 

[CaptainSpunk]

You know one thing that is really starting to bother me? The lack of creativity for the 3rd movies title. Especially the way everyone around here likes to abbreviate TDK and TDKR. It makes it easy to type TDK when you might have been talking about TDKR.
Knowing what we know about TDKR I wonder what would have been a better alternative title?

 

[Black Ink]

Knowing what we know about TDKR I wonder what would have been a better alternative title?

Batman Ends....

I think The Dark Knight Rises is fine.

On topic: Batman Begins is pretty good, but there are some pretty cheesy jokes that brings it down a bit. But overall pretty good.

The Dark Knight on the other hand is great. It's alot more serious, an extremely diverse story and it is much darker, which I have always enjoyed with movies.

I do not think TDKR will top TDK but I'm pretty sure it will be alot better than Begins.

 

[jmc]

I think the title is more about capitalizing off The Dark Knight. Batman Rises has a better ring to it, but TDK is more well known. I also think there might be elements of The Dark Knight Returns so it could be somewhat of a homage to that.

 

[Nevincer]

Rises/Begins are so similar in both meaning and sound that for it to be called 'Batman Rises' would sound even more obnoxiously redundant.

 

[Black Ink]

I like them not using 'Batman' in the titles, it's classy.

 

[The Batman]

Any movie with the Joker in it will become a Joker movie. There's nothing anyone can do about it.

I actually think TAS is the only version of Batman where people dont constantly claim that Joker "stole the show"

Joker was in MOTP, but Batman was undeniably the best thing about that movie,IMO.

I think people claim Joker stole the show because he's flashy as hell. And people always get distracted by bright, pretty lights.

 

[gugumugats]

I like them not using 'Batman' in the titles, it's classy.

Yeah, now that I think about, having Batman in the title makes it sound silly.

 

[Brother Jack]

Rises/Begins are so similar in both meaning and sound that for it to be called 'Batman Rises' would sound even more obnoxiously redundant.

Yeah, I have to agree with that. Initially I thought the title was too long and redundant but I've warmed up to it, partly because it is reminiscent of "Batman Begins". There's a narrative arc to the three titles, where the hero begins, transforms into something else, and then, well, rises. We don't know the full implications of the title yet, but I'm sure it will have a lot of narrative meaning.

 

[gugumugats]

How bout these comic titles:

Legends of the Dark Knight?

Knightfall ?

Gotham Knight(s) ?