The Dark Knight Rises Why is everyone slamming TDKR?

[milost]

The only time I felt his voice was great and appropriate was in Batman Begins. I loved how he sounded. There were a few times where it was corny like at the Narrows with Rachel, but it was good for the most part. He sounds PERFECT when he's talking to Rachel ("rattling the cages") and Gordon. Even interrogating Flass sounds like the right level of gruff and anger.

With TDK and TDKR, it just gets over the top and obnoxious as each film progresses. It all started with "hockey padzzz" and ended with "triggerrzzz". I don't know whose idea it was exactly, but it was just ridiculous. While I think it's cool when he does it at the party at the penthouse, it's inconsistent as hell. There's no rhyme or reason to it and it's down right laughable. He could be at his most intimidating, with his teeth gritted and eyes glowing (like in the interrogation), but it just falls apart when he starts ranting and raving, going over the top. Then he even does it to himself? It's just crazy, and jarring.

The only time I liked it was in the interrogation scene, which makes sense because he SHOULD be getting frustrated. Joker is literally in control of what he does (if he can kill him or not and where they're located), it makes sense that Batman breaks. He's NOT in control like Gordon claims he is. But most of the other scenes? Nah, it's just too much. I loved back in 2008 when people defended it towards the end saying "he was winded, he was hurt, stabbed even", then fast forward 4 years later and he was doing the same exact thing without even breaking a sweat.

It wouldn't surprise me if that helmet squeezed his head. It makes sense. His mouth is constantly open like the poor guy can't breath (he always has his head back with the dopey open mouth). Add that to the fact that his voice tinkered with sound effects and it was just a recipe for disaster. He may have not been able to turn his head well in Batman Begins, but at least he wasn't spazzzzing out and spitting when he talked.

 

[JackWhite]

When he's down in the tunnels with Selina, I loved his dialogue there.

"That depends...on what you want it for. I acquired it to keep it out of the wrong hands."

That is so Batman.

Bale's mouth was only open when he was "fatigued" from battle. In TDK he never had his mouth open in that way because Bale was playing it as a primed Batman. In TDKR the whole question is can this guy still do the job? So I really don't think the cowl was that much of an issue when it came to Bale being comfortable in it.

 

[milost]

Oh yeah, in TDK the mouth thing is fine. The cowl doesn't look like it's squeezing his head or interfering with his acting. Just the voice is bad.

But in TDKR, I don't recall a single scene where his mouth is shut, action or not. His head is always bobbed back, mouth open, like he's in a daze. Or where you pinch your nose and talk, essentially like a mouth breather. It's really evident when Batman gives Catwoman the Batpod and even behind the scenes.


I mean, we're all used to it. The voice thing has been discussed to death, but I'm just surprised they never did anything to remedy the "problem" (not that it's a problem for everyone) after all the criticism and parody it's received. I mean they had 4 years to take it into account, but they just still went with it? Even going further with it?

 

[JackWhite]

Oh yeah, in TDK the mouth thing is fine. The cowl doesn't look like it's squeezing his head or interfering with his acting. Just the voice is bad.

But in TDKR, I don't recall a single scene where his mouth is shut, action or not. His head is always bobbed back, mouth open, like he's in a daze. Or where you pinch your nose and talk, essentially like a mouth breather. It's really evident when Batman gives Catwoman the Batpod and even behind the scenes.


I mean, we're all used to it. The voice thing has been discussed to death, but I'm just surprised they never did anything to remedy the "problem" (not that it's a problem for everyone) after all the criticism and parody it's received. I mean they had 4 years to take it into account, but they just still went with it? Even going further with it?

When Batman gives Catwoman the bat-pod his posturing is fine. It's right after he says "There's more to you then that" does he go into that "deep thought" look. And its appropriate.

When Batman makes his first appearance he has his mouth closed while on the bat-pod. Sure, during the part where the cops swarm him his mouth his partly open, but what is wrong with that? Mostly everyone here loves that scene and got chills, and I don't ever remember anyone having gripes about Bale's mouth.

 

[milost]

As much as I'd like to believe that the over-exaggerated mouth breathing thing is acting, ("deep in thought" as you put it), I don't think it is. That's just me though, I'm in the minority.

I remember reading that Bale had a ton of trouble breathing in the cowl with TDKR. That, and hearing. So I don't think it's intentional or part of the performance, he's struggling. Almost the entire length of the film he just looks dazed, like he's about to pass out. I mean, obviously that doesn't bother you, but it sort of bugs me. The Bat cockpit interior shots, there he is, dull looking, mouth open. Alone talking to himself, mouth open. Etc. etc. Same thing with the set pics, that's all he does.


I know these cowls have nose holes, from Keaton to Bale. I don't remember that problem in Begins. His expression was always fine, whether he was crouched on a rail or standing around. Keaton never had that problem either, he always had that sort of intense, no nonsense scowl going on. So I don't think I'm nitpicking. Just compare how Bale acts in Begins in voice and appearance to TDKR. It's completely different. He looks calm and collected not awkward and doofy. I dunno, it's probably just me.

 

[BatLobster]

iate.
When Batman makes his first appearance he has his mouth closed while on the bat-pod. Sure, during the part where the cops swarm him his mouth his partly open, but what is wrong with that? Mostly everyone here loves that scene and got chills, and I don't ever remember anyone having gripes about Bale's mouth.

Yeah, I think the way Batman looked during his "return" scene/Batpod chase is probably my favorite he's looked in the entire trilogy. He just had this really defiant, badass look to him for that whole scene.

Overall I think Bale has the best facial expressions in the cowl of any Bat-actor. He's the first I can remember where that would show some teeth while scowling, which is such familiar imagery from the comics.

 

[milost]

I think Keaton emotes the most and looks best in the cowl, Bale is an extremely close second (well, TDKR excluded). The other two just act like themselves. Keaton does all those things you mention I think, and more. We even see him smile at a few points.

Bale looks best in Begins to me (though, I like when he's going full speed on the street towards the Joker in Dark Knight, he looks great there), especially at the end with Gordon and the signal. He seems like a fully formed, confident Batman. He never looks out of it like he does in TDKR. Even when he's sprayed with the fear gas he keeps his mouth shut initially. I really can't think of one, calm, action less scene where he doesn't look out of it in TDKR. Even the collectibles sculpt that goofy mouth on him.

 

[BatLobster]

I love Keaton too. He did a great job behind the cowl both in terms of emoting and his voice.

Keaton had a coldness to his anger, whereas Bale had a more raw and visceral rage. Both worked great for their respective takes on the character. Though I don't recall Keaton grating is teeth in a way similar to Bale (like when he was racing towards Joker on the Bat-pod or fighting Bane for the second time in TDKR). Maybe I'm just forgetting. Keaton definitely had a badass Bat-scowl though, don't get me wrong.

 

[JackWhite]

As much as I'd like to believe that the over-exaggerated mouth breathing thing is acting, ("deep in thought" as you put it), I don't think it is. That's just me though, I'm in the minority.

I remember reading that Bale had a ton of trouble breathing in the cowl with TDKR. That, and hearing. So I don't think it's intentional or part of the performance, he's struggling. Almost the entire length of the film he just looks dazed, like he's about to pass out. I mean, obviously that doesn't bother you, but it sort of bugs me. The Bat cockpit interior shots, there he is, dull looking, mouth open. Alone talking to himself, mouth open. Etc. etc. Same thing with the set pics, that's all he does.


I know these cowls have nose holes, from Keaton to Bale. I don't remember that problem in Begins. His expression was always fine, whether he was crouched on a rail or standing around. Keaton never had that problem either, he always had that sort of intense, no nonsense scowl going on. So I don't think I'm nitpicking. Just compare how Bale acts in Begins in voice and appearance to TDKR. It's completely different. He looks calm and collected not awkward and doofy. I dunno, it's probably just me.

During the final chase scene Bale's mouth is closed for the majority of the scene. There a few cuts where his mouth is open, and those are attributed to Batman being concerned about maneuvering the bat. I mean, seriously? lol.

Now perhaps TDKR cowl is more restrictive than TDK cowl, but I have yet to see anything of truth to that.

 

[milost]

I love Keaton too. He did a great job behind the cowl both in terms of emoting and his voice.

Keaton had a coldness to his anger, whereas Bale had a more raw and visceral rage. Both worked great for their respective takes on the character. Though I don't recall Keaton grating is teeth in a way similar to Bale (like when he was racing towards Joker on the Bat-pod or fighting Bane for the second time in TDKR). Maybe I'm just forgetting. Keaton definitely had a badass Bat-scowl though, don't get me wrong.

Yeah, I agree with you about Keaton and Bale. Just not TDKR (I think, not sure where you stand there). I don't think I could ask for more between what the two of them gave us.

As for the teeth grating, I believe Keaton does it when he's pulling up the Batwing stopping the smylex balloons and just misses the Cathedral (just like in TDKR when Batman has trouble pulling up with the nuclear bomb, which I thought was pretty cool. Instead of the Cathedral though, it's the building that's under construction). Then he does it again in his confrontation with the Joker when he finally catches up with him. It's around the time the Joker blames him for "dropping him" in the vat of chemicals I believe.



While we're on the subject of appearances, another "look" I love is in TDK at the club with Maroni. I like how Batman looks there, plowing through the thugs and when he lifts up Maroni. He has that great, no-nonsense look on his face when he's slowly lifting him up.

 

[JackWhite]

Bale's mouth has been open since his very first scene as Bruce.

Better burn those BB DVD's. Bale is a habitual mouth-opener.

 

[milost]

Lol



Like I said, it's probably just me. It's not like I'm thinking "oh man, Bale opened his mouth there, or there this is awful!", it's not that. It's just in the batsuit almost every scene in TDKR he looks odd to me, that's all. Sure, there's probably a second or two where he's not (and you could probably find a second or two where he is doing it in Begins and Dark Knight), but for the most part, he just looks uncomfortable. He said as much. It's not like I'm looking for it to happen, he just has these ridiculous expressions just standing there in TDKR. That, parred with the voice is like he's struggling to communicate. Live every word is grating and a struggle that takes energy.


I don't have sceencaps, but I don't remember him constantly doing this in Batman Begins or The Dark Knight.

 

[JackWhite]

Those are mostly candids.

And is that hyperbole I'm reading? "That, parred with the voice is like he's struggling to communicate. Live every word is grating and a struggle that takes energy."

"No guns no killing"
"I acquired it to keep it out of the wrong hands"
"You've made a serious mistake"
"This blocks the remote detonator signal to the bomb. Get it onto it before sunrise. It might hit the button when it starts"
"War"
"Tell me where the trigger is, then you have my permission to die"
"All out assault on Bane, but you need to get people across the bridge"

How are those lines recited badly? lol.

 

[milost]

I'll give you "War", "No guns, no killing" and "you've made a serious mistake", those are definitely not as over the top as most of what he says. Also, even though it's an awful/badly scripted retort, "I came back to stop you" isn't that bad, the delivery anyway.


But how about,


"I doubt many people get the better of you. What's he gonna to do with them?"
"Ms. Kyle, so that's what that feels like."
"You think you're the only one who can find the strength to escape? Where's the trigger?"
"This isn't a car."
"They know they just don't care."



Anything involving " the triggerzzz" or saying a mouthful like, "You think you're the only one who can find the strength to escape?"

 

[JackWhite]

I'll give you "War", "No guns, no killing" and "you've made a serious mistake", those are definitely not as over the top as most of what he says. Also, even though it's an awful/badly scripted retort, "I came back to stop you" isn't that bad, the delivery anyway.


But how about,


"I doubt many people get the better of you. What's he gonna to do with them?"
"Ms. Kyle, so that's what that feels like."
"You think you're the only one who can find the strength to escape? Where's the trigger?"
"This isn't a car."
"They know they just don't care."



Anything involving " the triggerzzz" or saying a mouthful like, "You think you're the only one who can find the strength to escape?"

Oh man, "This isn't a car" was awesome. You make it sound like his lines with Catwoman and his lines right before Talia shanks him are on the levels of "This city...just showed you..." absurdity.

In the last scene with the Joker, Bale sounded like he was gargling marbles for the most part. But IMO, it never got to that level in TDKR. Where is the trigger had potential to be another "Where is he?" or "Swear to me!" because the voice wasn't overly processed, but the odd delivery and repeating of "Where is it?" kept it from being an epic moment.

You're a cool dude though, welcome to the forums BTW.

 

[Anno_Domini]

When someone continues to talk about Bale keeping his mouth open, it's the reason why a thread like this continues to exist, lol.

PS:

Spoiler

Edit: Here's a different pic now.

 

[JackWhite]

When someone continues to talk about Bale keeping his mouth open, it's the reason why a thread like this continues to exist, lol.

PS:

Spoiler

What is that in the spoiler tag? It won't open, lol.

 

[Anno_Domini]

It's working perfectly for me, lol.

It's Batman in TDKR with his mouth close riding on the Bat-pod. It's just a huge pic and I couldn't find anything smaller.

 

[JackWhite]

It's working perfectly for me, lol.

It's Batman in TDKR with his mouth close riding on the Bat-pod. It's just a huge pic and I couldn't find anything smaller.

lol, ah, OK.

 

[Tequilla]

Batman might have a deviated septum (like me t: ) or something , that's why he's always with his mouth open. It ain't easy !!

 

[C. Lee]

It's working perfectly for me, lol.

It doesn't work for me either. You might want to recheck and see if you did it right.

 

[The Guard]

Bale did have his mouth open more than Chris Evans in CAPTAIN AMERICA and THE AVENGERS. And that's a lot.

It does tend to get a bit distracting. I get it when he's "winded" or hurt...but there are some moments where he'd look better with a set jaw, and he could actually do more emoting with his mouth closed in some circumstances.

 

[Anno_Domini]

It doesn't work for me either. You might want to recheck and see if you did it right.

Lol. I tried to do it again and now the picture is showing up as a blue box. Thanks, lol.

 

[jmc]

So I finally bought Rises on DVD coz it was on special and watched it again. I haven't seen it since July last year so it gave me the opportunity to watch it with relatively fresh eyes.

I'll reiterate what I've said before about it, it's not a bad movie, but having watch it again for the first time in over six months I've come to the conclusion the film is a very flawed masterpiece that is undone by the very medium it was created in. I can now see why people like this move, because it can be enjoyed, it just can't be enjoyed from the perspective of Nolan's past work because this is still without a doubt his worst movie. The problem is Nolan tried to combine spectacle with substance but somewhere along the line things became muddled, concessions and compromises were made and story elements were sacrificed in order to fit in the 2 and 3/4 hour time frame. All the film needed was an extra time to thoroughly combine spectacle with substance in order for it to truly rank along side Nolan's best because it's very much a highlights package of a much longer story.

I believe this is where the frustration myself and others have stems from. Looking back at TDK and BB those films aren't really blockbuster spectacles, they're very much films of substance first and action second and that's where the fault of Rises lies, Nolan pushed the substance back in order to elevate the spectacle. I'll give kudos to him for trying to elevate things for a grand finish but in doing so he had to cut corners because the line between serious movie and superhero film is never more evident than here. Avengers wore its spectacle heart on its sleeve and was unapologetic about it, it was simple and it worked. Rises drops the ball because it's just trying to do way to much and achieve the same result. Nolan kinda painted himself into a corner when he chose to make a genuine spectacle, I will give him props for attempting it because Rises is ambitious as hell, it's just the story he was trying to do was hamstrung from day one given the medium it was being made in and as a result there are some really dumb moments in the film. I've said this before but the story here could have used an extra 30-40 mins easily but that was never going to happen.

Frankly no matter how much I look at it I cannot rank Rises along side with TDK and Begins because it's really not the same type of film as the other two, which is ironically what I was hoping for from the get go, just not the execution I was expecting. I'm still disappointed don't get me wrong, I still expected better, but if I look at it through the same spectrum as the Avengers it's enjoyable, but just not as great as it should have been. I wish I didn't have to look at it through that spectrum but it's a concession I can make in order to watch the film. Simply put, TDKR is a popcorn movie dressed up.

 

[JackWhite]

So I finally bought Rises on DVD coz it was on special and watched it again. I haven't seen it since July last year so it gave me the opportunity to watch it with relatively fresh eyes.

I'll reiterate what I've said before about it, it's not a bad movie, but having watch it again for the first time in over six months I've come to the conclusion the film is a very flawed masterpiece that is undone by the very medium it was created in. I can now see why people like this move, because it can be enjoyed, it just can't be enjoyed from the perspective of Nolan's past work because this is still without a doubt his worst movie. The problem is Nolan tried to combine spectacle with substance but somewhere along the line things became muddled, concessions and compromises were made and story elements were sacrificed in order to fit in the 2 and 3/4 hour time frame. All the film needed was an extra time to thoroughly combine spectacle with substance in order for it to truly rank along side Nolan's best because it's very much a highlights package of a much longer story.

I believe this is where the frustration myself and others have stems from. Looking back at TDK and BB those films aren't really blockbuster spectacles, they're very much films of substance first and action second and that's where the fault of Rises lies, Nolan pushed the substance back in order to elevate the spectacle. I'll give kudos to him for trying to elevate things for a grand finish but in doing so he had to cut corners because the line between serious movie and superhero film is never more evident than here. Avengers wore its spectacle heart on its sleeve and was unapologetic about it, it was simple and it worked. Rises drops the ball because it's just trying to do way to much and achieve the same result. Nolan kinda painted himself into a corner when he chose to make a genuine spectacle, I will give him props for attempting it because Rises is ambitious as hell, it's just the story he was trying to do was hamstrung from day one given the medium it was being made in and as a result there are some really dumb moments in the film. I've said this before but the story here could have used an extra 30-40 mins easily but that was never going to happen.

Frankly no matter how much I look at it I cannot rank Rises along side with TDK and Begins because it's really not the same type of film as the other two, which is ironically what I was hoping for from the get go, just not the execution I was expecting. I'm still disappointed don't get me wrong, I still expected better, but if I look at it through the same spectrum as the Avengers it's enjoyable, but just not as great as it should have been. I wish I didn't have to look at it through that spectrum but it's a concession I can make in order to watch the film. Simply put, TDKR is a popcorn movie dressed up.

I read that while drinking a beer, while listening to the first bit of Corynorinus from the BB soundtrack. Pretty much agree on all counts, except you should have bought TDKR on Blu-Ray. It's actually the best Blu-Ray I own, clearly on a visual level, of course.

But yeah, had this film been longer it could have been hugely successful, for it's ginormous scope and ambition. It's not a terrible film by any stretch, the moments that succeed do so in a huge way - Bane's intro, Batman's first appearance, Batman vs Bane part I, Alfred leaving Bruce, Bruce's rehab in the pit, and the eventual climb. But what made BB and TDK so engrossing was the whole picture - From first act, all the way through the final act those films worked.