The Dark Knight Rises Why is everyone slamming TDKR?

[DACrowe]

I fail to see how it is bizarre. None of us are questioning Nolan's right to grieve. But not doing an "In Memorium", hording his hard work from everyone else, acting as if the man's greatest achievment never existed and writing him out of existence in the story among other things is frustrating. Heath was his friend I get that, but Heath engaged in a form of work that made him a part of more than just Nolan's and his family's life. The man was an amazing actor, and I would love to see more of his hard work. The good hard work he put in on set. Him having a good time on set. Working with the make-up department and other stuff he did. Maybe down the road a round table of the cast and Nolan talkign about the man. At least something honoring him. I don't see how refusing to acknowledge the character he literally wrecked his body to create on screen is in anyway respectful. It lacks rational logic.

I imagine well down the road, maybe for the 10th, 15th or 20th anniversary of TDK, we'll get some stuff.

I actually very much understand why he did not want to do it in 2008. There was a strange media frenzy around his death that created this fatalistic myth that Joker killed Ledger and people wanted to stare at it like when they slow down to look for blood while passing an accident.

Nolan wanted Ledger's work to speak for itself and not feed that morbid part of our culture. One day, after the Hype around it is long gone, he probably will show some of Ledger's process.

In any case, Nolan is always very secretive with his films. I think it is a bit presumptuous to think we are entitled to behind the scenes footage of Ledger as the Joker. The movie speaks to the amazing craft. I do not feel entitled to that anymore than a director's commentary. As a fan, it'd be nice. But if that is all the filmmaker wishes to show of the inner-process, I can respect that. I tend to still think films should stand for themselves at the end of the day.

 

[Snow Queen]

When it comes to ten year old Talia....you ARE the father.

[YT]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSTSBZEYO78[/YT]

 

[DACrowe]

Yeah, it does lack ration logic, because mentioning the Joker in TDKR wouldn't disrespect Heath. How can it? Give me a rational way it disrespects him. Nolan may think it would, but that doesn't make it rational. Heath poured his body and soul into the character. Mentioning the character is a form of respect and honors the man. To hide the character and ignore him looks like shame. Why would Nolan be ashamed of the character? I'm not sure he is, but I do wonder if Nolan somehow resents the character for being the role that took it out of Heath and led to the need for sleeping pills that would take his life. I could easily see a loved one resenting the role for what it did to Heath.

It made Nolan uncomfortable. So he wrote a story where it was not required. How is that a bad thing? No mention of the Joker feels organic and gracefully executed in the film. It is not like there are scenes of them going "He who will not be named."

It is pretty strange to criticize someone for mourning a friend's death in his own way. He made a personal choice and it does not effect the quality of TDKR one way or the other. I still do not see the problem with this.

 

[jmc]

If you're going to criticize I suggest you stick to the creative decisions and not personal ones. The Joker not being mentioned doesn't affect anything in TDKR nor would it add anything. Nolan didn't want to mention The Joker out of respect for Heath, it's as simple as that. If you're *****ing to Nolan about the Joker not being mentioned when he's given his justification for it then frankly you need to grow up.

 

[Anno_Domini]

How could she know? She'd been cut off from the world in a prison pit for years.

Who's to say Talia's mother didn't know that Ra's had other places he had gone to to have made his home while she was with Ra's?

The war lord found out about Ra's marrying his daughter and sent him to the pit. Then his wife made a secret deal and took his place in the pit so he could be free. So it wasn't a big secret that Ra's had been married to Mrs. Al Ghul. It wasn't a state guarded secret. Anyone could have found this out. So I still don't see why Ra's would buy the word of some kid who tells him years later that he's her daddy, especially considering he had no idea his wife had been pregnant.

That's reaching a bit to say a child would pretend to be Ra's al Ghul's daughter, don't you think?

 

[BCDawg97]

Edited for stupidity...

 

[Anno_Domini]

Ra's al Ghul only returned to the Pit when Talia found him.

 

[BCDawg97]

Ra's al Ghul only returned to the Pit when Talia found him.

Got it. Couldn't remember the order of events.

 

[The Joker]

Who's to say Talia's mother didn't know that Ra's had other places he had gone to to have made his home while she was with Ra's?

Logic says it. She was in that pit for years. Expecting to never get out. Telling her she has a father is one thing, but what is the point in telling her about LOS locations lol?

Second Talia wouldn't know the lay out of the world from a hole in the ground (literally). She's never left the pit since she was born. She would have no sense of direction.

That's reaching a bit to say a child would pretend to be Ra's al Ghul's daughter, don't you think?

No, not at all. He's a man in a powerful position with powerful enemies. Using a child to lure him into a trap, or spy on him and his activities, or any other number of things like that is more plausible and likely than Mrs. Al Ghul rhyming off possible hideout locations of Ra's to her little girl lol.

Children have been used for such things: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444097904577537044185191340.html

http://soc-of-info.blogspot.ie/2008/09/children-as-spies.html

 

[A Necessary Evil]

Sheild is recruiting them too.

 

[Anno_Domini]

Logic says it. She was in that pit for years. Expecting to never get out. Telling her she has a father is one thing, but what is the point in telling her about LOS locations lol?

Second Talia wouldn't know the lay out of the world from a hole in the ground (literally). She's never left the pit since she was born. She would have no sense of direction.

...hrm....I never said anything about the LoS locations, lol. I said she could mention where Ra's calls home at times, as it's pretty much known that Ra's wasn't a part of the LoS until after, anyways.

She may not seem to have any sense of direction, but she found him. In dire need of assistance, and you could do wonders sort of thing.

No, not at all. He's a man in a powerful position with powerful enemies. Using a child to lure him into a trap, or spy on him and his activities, or any other number of things like that is more plausible and likely than Mrs. Al Ghul rhyming off possible hideout locations of Ra's to her little girl lol.

Children have been used for such things: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444097904577537044185191340.html

http://soc-of-info.blogspot.ie/2008/09/children-as-spies.html

Lol, I still think that's reaching even if you have examples or not.

 

[The Joker]

...hrm....I never said anything about the LoS locations, lol. I said she could mention where Ra's calls home at times, as it's pretty much known that Ra's wasn't a part of the LoS until after, anyways.

How do we know this? Ra's was called a mercenary in the story told in the pit, like Bane was referred to as a mercenary by Alfred. Again home places, or LOS lairs, it's the same thing. Why would she bother telling her about things like that when they never expect to leave the pit and go visit him there or see it?

She may not seem to have any sense of direction, but she found him. In dire need of assistance, and you could do wonders sort of thing.

Funny. You can buy a child born and raised in a hole in the ground for YEARS, can magically find her father all by herself, without a cent to her name, no sense of direction, and no guardianship. Finding her father who is the leader of a top secret centuries old organization. That's plausible to you. Which brings us to this:

Lol, I still think that's reaching even if you have examples or not.

And it gets better, now you call this a stretch despite having real world examples.

Anno Domini, watching a movie where the leading character dresses as a giant bat and saves a city from a 5 month siege and a nuclear bomb, cannot buy the concept of child spies.

Congrats Anno, you have taken your fandom of TDKR to new levels

 

[RAINMAKER]

Guys, it was really simple to find Ra's Al Ghul because someone told Talia by taking a rare blue flower to the top of the mountain, she would find what she was looking for. t:

 

[Snow Queen]

I wouldn't be too surprised if her mother told her about her father and, once out, she searched for him until word of the daughter of Ra's al Ghul was in _____ and it piqued his curiosity.

 

[Anno_Domini]

How do we know this? Ra's was called a mercenary in the story told in the pit, like Bane was referred to as a mercenary by Alfred. Again home places, or LOS lairs, it's the same thing. Why would she bother telling her about things like that when they never expect to leave the pit and go visit him there or see it?

Why would Ra's al Ghul be helping some warlord if he was already the leader of the LoS? They didn't seem like the type to help kings and warlords; they seemed to be the type that took matters in their own hands when they view it's time for a place to be "restarted".

And why would Talia's mother not tell her those things? Keep hope alive, talking about the marvelous places her father travels to, lives at, et cetera. I see more of a problem of Talia's mother not sharing insight about him.

Funny. You can buy a child born and raised in a hole in the ground for YEARS, can magically find her father all by herself, without a cent to her name, no sense of direction, and no guardianship. Finding her father who is the leader of a top secret centuries old organization. That's plausible to you. Which brings us to this

Lol, I had never put some thought into this. It doesn't make much sense, does it? I guess...hrm...maybe she knew where he was? But even that doesn't add to it as Talia's mother wouldn't really know...or would she?

Oh yah, that's sure me sounding like I'm fine with the idea of Talia finding her father so quickly, lol

And it gets better, now you call this a stretch despite having real world examples.

Anno Domini, watching a movie where the leading character dresses as a giant bat and saves a city from a 5 month siege and a nuclear bomb, cannot buy the concept of child spies.

Congrats Anno, you have taken your fandom of TDKR to new levels

I call it a stretch when this is the real world. I can overlook something as there not being children spies when Nolan's world isn't the real world

Your idea that everything needs to be like the real world in a CBM is damn laughable Joker, congrats for giving me a nice chuckle here and there when I read that you're trying to pick at every little thing that shouldn't be dealt with realistically. You know, you should post examples of what happens to someone that does dress up like a bat...they're laughed at.

 

[BatLobster]

Ra's felt it in his bones that the child was truly his and not a spy.

There, done.

 

[Snow Queen]

Ra's felt it in his bones that the child was truly his and not a spy.

There, done.

I prefer my idea that they went on that show and the host proved that he is the father.

 

[Shikamaru]

I prefer my idea that they went on that show and the host proved that he is the father.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

She naturally displayed a particular set of skills. Skills that only an Al Ghul can possess! Thus, her daughter. Or niece. Or cousin once removed.

 

[The Joker]

Why would Ra's al Ghul be helping some warlord if he was already the leader of the LoS? They didn't seem like the type to help kings and warlords; they seemed to be the type that took matters in their own hands when they view it's time for a place to be "restarted".

I don't know. That's conjecture because we don't get the ins and outs of what he was planning with this warlord. It wasn't relevant to the back story so it wasn't specified. Falling in love with his daughter was the only relevant part. That and he was labelled a mercenary like Bane was.

And why would Talia's mother not tell her those things? Keep hope alive, talking about the marvelous places her father travels to, lives at, et cetera. I see more of a problem of Talia's mother not sharing insight about him.

How is telling her about places the poor kid will never see keeping hope alive for her? As Bane said, the only hope that exists in that pit is the idea of being able to climb out.

Oh yah, that's sure me sounding like I'm fine with the idea of Talia finding her father so quickly, lol

And yet here you are arguing out the possibilities of it.

I call it a stretch when this is the real world. I can overlook something as there not being children spies when Nolan's world isn't the real world

Then by that logic, Nolan's world being a more fantastical one than ours should make it even easier to accept shouldn't it.

Your idea that everything needs to be like the real world in a CBM is damn laughable Joker

Where the hell did I say that? You were questioning the believability of something in a more fantasy based world. The reason I posted those is because I had to actually show you some real life examples of children being used as spies to defraud someone because YOU found the idea a stretch lol. Then in typical Anno Domini fashion you still argue it even when you've been given proof of it.

 

[Snow Queen]

She naturally displayed a particular set of skills. Skills that only an Al Ghul can possess! Thus, her daughter. Or niece. Or cousin once removed.

A very particular set of skills that she acquired during her time in The Pit. Skills that make her a nightmare for people like Ra's. [BLACKOUT]Puppy dog eyes.[/BLACKOUT]

[YT]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seRhXyoNrGI[/YT]

 

[Anno_Domini]

I don't know. That's conjecture because we don't get the ins and outs of what he was planning with this warlord. It wasn't relevant to the back story so it wasn't specified. Falling in love with his daughter was the only relevant part. That and he was labelled a mercenary like Bane was.

Going by Batman Begins, we saw a League of Shadows that ran things by their own rules, so it's safer to believe that Ra's wasn't part of the LoS when he was working with the warlord. Plus, Ra's DID say he had a life before his time in the mountains. Now it could've been a partial lie as he was pretending to be Ducard, but it may not have been and he was speaking of his time before the LoS.

How is telling her about places the poor kid will never see keeping hope alive for her? As Bane said, the only hope that exists in that pit is the idea of being able to climb out.

I view it as the same thing of a parent telling a kid they can be the President of the United States if they wanted to when the parent knows that'll never happen. Talia's mother telling her about her father would give Talia absolute hope knowing something about her father that then helped when she goes out looking for him.

And yet here you are arguing out the possibilities of it.

Like you arguing out the possibilities of Talia's mother telling Talia about her father?

Then by that logic, Nolan's world being a more fantastical one than ours should make it even easier to accept shouldn't it.

Not when anything is ever mentioned about children spies, no, it should not. Maybe you'd accept it, but you're the first to actually mention children spies, lol.

Where the hell did I say that? You were questioning the believability of something in a more fantasy based world. The reason I posted those is because I had to actually show you some real life examples of children being used as spies to defraud someone because YOU found the idea a stretch lol. Then in typical Anno Domini fashion you still argue it even when you've been given proof of it.

I found the idea for the MOVIE a stretch as it seems like you're just trying to think of ideas that no one would ever seem to think of EXCEPT you

 

[The Joker]

Going by Batman Begins, we saw a League of Shadows that ran things by their own rules, so it's safer to believe that Ra's wasn't part of the LoS when he was working with the warlord. Plus, Ra's DID say he had a life before his time in the mountains. Now it could've been a partial lie as he was pretending to be Ducard, but it may not have been and he was speaking of his time before the LoS.

Going by Batman Begins and TDKR, it showed the LOS work with people for their own ends. Like how Ra's used Falcone (who could be the warlord figure of that story) and Daggett in TDKR. Who is to say there was not a similar situation here where Ra's was using this Warlord to achieve some goal? Then he encounters something he wasn't expecting: falling in love with his daughter.

We don't know the ins and outs because it's never specified.

I view it as the same thing of a parent telling a kid they can be the President of the United States if they wanted to when the parent knows that'll never happen.

That's different. That's a parent's way of telling their child they can be anything if they put their mind to it. Instilling them with confidence to try their best at anything they do.

Like you arguing out the possibilities of Talia's mother telling Talia about her father?

No, I'm not arguing the possibility, I'm arguing the reasoning. I never said it was impossible.

It's possible Bruce Wayne likes to dress in girdle and high heels in his spare time, but I'd argue the reasons why he would.

Not when anything is ever mentioned about children spies, no, it should not.

By that logic because nothing is ever mentioned about home baked apple pies in Nolan's world either, but they exist in our world, that must mean they can't exist then in Nolan's Batman world.

Maybe you'd accept it, but you're the first to actually mention children spies, lol.

Because this is the first time this plot point was raised and questioned.

I found the idea for the MOVIE a stretch as it seems like you're just trying to think of ideas that no one would ever seem to think of EXCEPT you

Translation: You find it a stretch that in a world where there's secret centuries old terrorist organizations of ninjas living in the Himalayas destroying cities with fear toxin and microwave emitters it's a real stretch that children trained as spies could exist just because I'm the one that raised the idea and showed you real world examples of it.

 

[Anno_Domini]

Going by Batman Begins and TDKR, it showed the LOS work with people for their own ends. Like how Ra's used Falcone (who could be the warlord figure of that story) and Daggett in TDKR. Who is to say there was not a similar situation here where Ra's was using this Warlord to achieve some goal? Then he encounters something he wasn't expecting: falling in love with his daughter.

We don't know the ins and outs because it's never specified.

Again, I bring back Ra's al Ghul telling Bruce Wayne about his time before the mountains where he mentions a wife, so it could have been a true story from Ra's al Ghul's life and not just him making something up as Ducard.

That's different. That's a parent's way of telling their child they can be anything if they put their mind to it. Instilling them with confidence to try their best at anything they do.

And telling Talia about her father to give her hope that one day she may meet the man is a totally different thing? I beg to differ.

No, I'm not arguing the possibility, I'm arguing the reasoning. I never said it was impossible.

It's possible Bruce Wayne likes to dress in girdle and high heels in his spare time, but I'd argue the reasons why he would.

Yah, I have nothing to say if you just want to make jokes

By that logic because nothing is ever mentioned about home baked apple pies in Nolan's world either, but they exist in our world, that must mean they can't exist then in Nolan's Batman world.

Again, if you bother to make jokes, I won't plan on replying.

Because this is the first time this plot point was raised and questioned.

I guess I'd imagine the first time it's brought up, that the first time will also bring up some wild accusations as well.

Translation: You find it a stretch that in a world where there's secret centuries old terrorist organizations of ninjas living in the Himalayas destroying cities with fear toxin and microwave emitters it's a real stretch that children trained as spies could exist just because I'm the one that raised the idea and showed you real world examples of it.

Translation: I take it as it is that Ra's al Ghul believed that Talia was his daughter without trying to over think a situation where Ra's could think that Talia was a child spy

 

[The Joker]

Again, I bring back Ra's al Ghul telling Bruce Wayne about his time before the mountains where he mentions a wife, so it could have been a true story from Ra's al Ghul's life and not just him making something up as Ducard.

Yes, we know he wasn't always based in the mountains. That was obvious based on the story told in TDKR. The LOS are globe trotters. London, Rome, Gotham, and god knows where else they set up camp and attack.

But say Ra's was in the mountains years later. Are you now saying that when little Talia escaped from the pit, she made her way from the pit to that snowy mountain high Himalayas base by herself lol?

And telling Talia about her father to give her hope that one day she may meet the man is a totally different thing? I beg to differ.

Yes, it's totally different. Those kids have actual hope and every possibility to achieve greatness when they grow up.

Yah, I have nothing to say if you just want to make jokes

Again, if you bother to make jokes, I won't plan on replying.

I'm not joking, I'm serious. The logic of those examples applies to what you're saying.

I guess I'd imagine the first time it's brought up, that the first time will also bring up some wild accusations as well.

Accusations of what?

Translation: I take it as it is that Ra's al Ghul believed that Talia was his daughter without trying to over think a situation where Ra's could think that Talia was a child spy

Then you credit him with less intelligence than I do. This is a man who uses dual identities because he doesn't trust anyone, not even his best student, Bruce.