The Dark Knight Rises Why is everyone slamming TDKR?

[milost]

You know what's crazy? Mr. Freeze and Poison Ivy (from Batman and Robin) and their diabolical plan is actually closer to what Ra's would want, and closer to fulfilling his destiny for the world than what Talia and Bane had in mind.


Freeze and Ivy are actually closer to achieving it too and at least Freeze is actually somewhat sympathetic in the end, compared to TDKR Misteh Bane and Miranda Tates.

 

[A Necessary Evil]

Anno is going to bust a fuse when he logs on, lol.

 

[BatLobster]

I JUST mentioned this in the other thread, pretty cool.



Better question would be, how would Ra's Al Ghul, the head of an organization that can burn London to the ground, topple Rome and ruin Gotham financially, not be able to find a prison pit to rescue his pregnant wife with a host of ninja soldiers at his disposal and either rescue them or exact terrible vengeance on his own?

He didn't know his wife had replaced him in the pit, and presumably didn't know she was pregnant either.

As far as how Talia found Ra's...this is the one thing that always seemed a bit of a stretch me. My best guess is that momma al Ghul had told Talia about her father, perhaps his real name (Ducard?) and that he was a mercenary. I imagine it probably took her years to track him down. I'd like to think there was a "legend" of the mercenary who was exiled from her grandfather's land and ended up in the mountains or something.

But yeah, that's always been something I've pondered. I guess climbing out of the pit is just really good luck or something .

 

[A Necessary Evil]

It seemed moreso like minutes. I mean, if he was in such pain, he should have died within hours of it.

Don't get me wrong, I love TDKR, but that is one serious plothole.

 

[milost]

But yeah, that's always been something I've pondered. I guess climbing out of the pit is just really good luck or something .

Or maybe when you escape the pit by yourself a genie appears and you're granted a magical wish?



- Talia's wish, magically find her daddy, whoever that may be

- Bruce's wish, magically appear in Gotham with a clean slate device that never existed

 

[The Joker]

It seemed moreso like minutes. I mean, if he was in such pain, he should have died within hours of it.

Don't get me wrong, I love TDKR, but that is one serious plothole.

Yep, the way Talia tells it is like "I climber out of the pit. I found my father, and brought him back to exact terrible vengeance".

She tells it like she climbed out of the pit and then just popped down the road to fetch her dad. I still want to know why the hell Ra's even believed this little scruffy skin headed kid was his child was his.

 

[BatLobster]

It seemed moreso like minutes. I mean, if he was in such pain, he should have died within hours of it.

Don't get me wrong, I love TDKR, but that is one serious plothole.

Well...if him staying alive through that intense pain is a plot hole, then Two-Face himself is a walking plot hole .

 

[The Joker]

Well...if him staying alive through that intense pain is a plot hole, then Two-Face himself is a walking plot hole .

The difference is we're told without the mask Bane is screwed. So in your proposed scenario how did he survive YEARS in that state?

 

[A Necessary Evil]

Well...if him staying alive through that intense pain is a plot hole, then Two-Face himself is a walking plot hole .

I mean...he died within hours. Also, Harvey Kent Dent wasn't in so bad of pain he had to wear a mask to keep the pain at bay.

Yep, the way Talia tells it is like "I climber out of the pit. I found my father, and brought him back to exact terrible vengeance".

She tells it like she climbed out of the pit and then just popped down the road to fetch her dad. I still want to know why the hell Ra's even believed this little scruffy skin headed kid was his child was his.

 

[Victarion]

Lazarus Pits.

 

[milost]

The difference is we're told without the mask Bane is screwed. So in your proposed scenario how did he survive YEARS in that state?

Or why the prison doctor is spared and allowed to live after Ra's and the League of Shadows come in and massacre the place.

 

[The Joker]

Lazarus Pits.

Or why the prison doctor is spared and allowed to live after Ra's and the League of Shadows come in and massacre the place.

Talia said that happened before Ra's and the LOS arrived.

 

[A Necessary Evil]

Lazarus Pits.

 

[Victarion]

I'm bringing us full circle. Summer of '11.

 

[DACrowe]

Crane effected the story and worked in TDKR? I don't think so.


They could have easily left him out and it would have no bearing on the story. He's a frivolous cameo as far as I'm concerned. A nod and nothing more. His appearance in The Dark Knight made perfect sense, they tied up a loose end from Batman Begins. There's a resolution there. TDKR? Not so much. That was just Nolan putting in his old friend Cillian Murphy and winking to the fans. They undo the resolution.

Yep. It's a nod to the fans of the series. So? Murphy is alive to do something like that...Ledger isn't. Probably why it worked out like that....

It's odd to have all these characters, have them mentioned and be a part of the story, but nothing for the Joker. I mean, practically the whole gang from Begins and Dark Knight are there. We have Ra's, we have Rachel, Dent, a good amount of flashbacks, a hallucination, the League of Shadows, Thomas Wayne, Gordon's family in Cleveland, young Gordon and young Bruce, the well, the Mayor, mentions of the events of Dark Knight and Begins . . . . but absolutely no Joker?

I never get why this is a complaint. What does it matter? It's not like it was a gaping elephant in the room. The Joker had no direct impact on the story of TDKR. Yes, he killed Rachel and drove Dent nuts and those two things play indirect factors on the film, but there is no reason to bring him up narratively. Was it a choice not to mention him? Obviously, as Nolan has said as much. But it is not odd within the context of the film. They told a story where the Joker's character has no impact. Thus his absence is not a problem for the film.

I mean would it make the movie so much better for you people if Gordon said "Let the Joker get ahead" when defending himself to Blake? Or would it matter if there is one scene of Joker not being let out of his cell done without showing his face? None of this effects the movie in anyway.

We know why Nolan did it, but that doesn't make it any less glaring. Think of The Dark Knight's world. Would the Joker really just go down quietly? He wouldn't have a trial? He wouldn't have anything bigger planned? He'd never be able to escape from where he was? That's nonsense.

It was eight years in the past so they could gloss over that. Again, the story did not need him. And could he escape? If that was the story they wanted to tell, but the cops in the Nolanverse at least seem semi-competent. Him not escaping seems quite feasible if they actually do their jobs in the movie.

 

[milost]

Yep. It's a nod to the fans of the series. So? Murphy is alive to do something like that...Ledger isn't. Probably why it worked out like that....



I never get why this is a complaint. What does it matter? It's not like it was a gaping elephant in the room. The Joker had no direct impact on the story of TDKR. Yes, he killed Rachel and drove Dent nuts and those two things play indirect factors on the film, but there is no reason to bring him up narratively. Was it a choice not to mention him? Obviously, as Nolan has said as much. But it is not odd within the context of the film. They told a story where the Joker's character has no impact. Thus his absence is not a problem for the film.

I mean would it make the movie so much better for you people if Gordon said "Let the Joker get ahead" when defending himself to Blake? Or would it matter if there is one scene of Joker not being let out of his cell done without showing his face? None of this effects the movie in anyway.



It was eight years in the past so they could gloss over that. Again, the story did not need him. And could he escape? If that was the story they wanted to tell, but the cops in the Nolanverse at least seem semi-competent. Him not escaping seems quite feasible if they actually do their jobs in the movie.

Here,

And the Joker could "make sense" in TDKR as well, even if it's just a mention. You just make sense of it in your writing and thought process.


That's the brilliance of story telling, you can make it whatever you will and tell whatever you want.


It doesn't mean everyone will like or agree with it though . . . case and point.

I wouldn't even say that the Joker not being included (by mention) in TDKR is a crime. It's only a crime to the film's "world" so to speak (if you view this as a "Trilogy" of it's own world that's interconnected). It could also be viewed as a blessing on another hand.


As far as films go though, if we simply view them as they are on their own terms, I like that the Joker is only in Begins and The Dark Knight and isn't "tainted" in TDKR (for me anyway) with some lame flashback or convoluted mention. For me, lots of the characters like Bruce, Alfred, and Gordon are worsened after TDKR, not so with the Joker.


He's a single entity of existence in the first two films that it just makes TDKR feel far and away from them, as it's own thing. Sure, it forces itself into the other two with "Dents" and "Rachels" and Ra's hallucinations that somehow give important plot details and "full circles", but it'll always be missing that special slice of the pie that the other 2/3 have that keep it from being the "full circle", the best slice, the Joker.


Is he in Arkham? Does Arkham exist? Is he dead? Did he escape? Does he even exist anymore?


Who cares? He was there in Batman Begins and the Dark Knight, and that's all that matters.

And I don't think the GCPD is competent at all. Even Gordon loses his mind by TDKR to send all the police in Gotham into a trap.

 

[BatLobster]

I'm feeling some crazy in this thread.

Spoiler

The difference is we're told without the mask Bane is screwed. So in your proposed scenario how did he survive YEARS in that state?

Yeah, I mean I guess I never took it that Bane would die without the mask. He never gave CIA *****e a straight answer on that one t:. But honestly, I have no idea. I was just theorizing there, maybe it was days, weeks or months rather than years. But I would hope to hell Nolan doesn't expect us to think that little Talia found Ra's instantaneously. I have a much harder time believing that than Bane being left just barely alive in the pit for a while.

But yeah, I'm comfortable calling this one a plot hole, or at least a very big leap. There's a first time for everything!

 

[DACrowe]

Note that I said semi. SEMI-competent.

Moreso than in most versions of the comics where they cannot tie their shoes without Batman's help. Gordon in the first two seemed pretty level-headed and made some good decisions and in the third? Well...he was drugged up on a lot of meds. Unfortunately for superhero stories to work, the cops have to make rather dumb mistakes. Though in three films, I only felt the GCPD reached comic levels of incompetence a few times (and yes, mostly in TDKR).


Anyways, you are right they could have written TDKR in a way to include a reference to Joker. Indeed, I imagine if Ledger was alive he'd have been a character in the film (though not necessarily the main villain, though that too is possible). However, they used their imagination to create a story that organically would not need to mention him and that would feel natural. They succeeded in that.

You want them to mention the Joker just because he was the best villain in the series? That is fine, but Nolan chose not to mention him for a very respectful reason and he achieved it gracefully in the movie.

 

[A Necessary Evil]

@ Batlobster

 

[Brain Damage]

Anno is going to bust a fuse when he logs on, lol.

I was literally thinking the same thing as I read that

 

[Snow Queen]

Did you guys bring a chair for me? I'll bring cookies!

 

[georgec]

We need more of The Guard!

 

[BatLobster]

@ Batlobster

Spoiler

 

[A Necessary Evil]

 

[Shikamaru]

My problem with not mentioning the Joker in TDKR is not the fact that he wasn't mentioned but the reason Nolan gave for why he didn't mention him. Nolan said he didn't want to recast or mention the Joker out of respect for Heath.

I can understand why recasting the Joker would seem disrespectful but how exactly is mentioning the Joker or even implying that a character is talking about the Joker disrespectful in any way? That makes no sense at all.

Does Nolan really think that people watching the movie would say "Wow, Gordon just mentioned the Joker in this scene and this is so disrespectful to Heath! How could he do this?" ? Does he think that Heath's family would somehow be insulted if the Joker was mentioned?

The problem is not that the Joker wasn't mentioned in TDKR. The problem (at least for me because I can't speak for everyone) is that the reason Nolan gave to why he didn't mention the Joker in the movie is just silly and doesn't make sense.