Apocalypse X-Men Apocalypse News and Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 43

[Stan Lee]

No it's a poorly depicted use of power with Apocalypse through the whole film which is what I have been trying to get you to understand.

You want audiences to blame Prof X. Well they are not gonna do that when said scene is clearly under direction that he has little to no control over himself. If they didn't want the audience to look at things that way then they should have done a better job at getting that point across. You can't blame the audience when the film is pretty much showing them these things.

Going back to X3 Phoenix for something like that is pointless.

They pretty much spoon fed it to the audience when they had Apocalypse himself explicitly state he doesn't control minds like a telepath after that scene. It's not the film's fault that some people forgot about that part. Just like how it wasn't Age of Ultron's fault that people forgot that it was stated that Vision was keeping Ultron from accessing nukes.

 

[def28]

It's how the scene is represented and is contrasted with the others! Why can't you understand this?

There is a clear difference between Charles and Erik in this movie. The way the subs were destroyed, was in no way represented the same in character, time, struggle or visuals. And again, Charles was fighting this one way or the other. It showed that EVIL was trying to take him over, the black eyes are the most obvious visual cue there. Why would any audience member think differently? That's what the filmmakers spoon fed.

Now on top of that Apocalypses powers are not represented well in any sense and are all over the place. It felt like they were just making up **** as the script went along. And why wouldn't it? They wanted a character that can hypnotize, enhance any power, teleport, use sand to kill, put people in walls etc. That needs extreme clarity, not just a little. Instead it just looks like he can do everything.

Blame the filmmakers for this mess. Not audiences and fans. They have no problem enjoying X-Men films when they are good. DOFP is not a simple film and is far more complex in just about every way then this.

 

[Stan Lee]

It's how the scene is represented and is contrasted with the others! Why can't you understand this?

There is a clear difference between Charles and Erik in this movie. The way the subs were destroyed, was in no way represented the same in character, time, struggle or visuals. And again, Chalres was fighting this one way or the other. It showed that EVIL was trying to take him over, the black eyes are the most obvious visual cue there. Why would any audience member think differently? That's what the filmmakers spoon fed.

Now on top of that Apocalypses powers are not represented well in any sense and are all over the place. It felt like they were just making up **** as the script went along. And why wouldn't it? They wanted a character that can hypnotize, enhance any power, teleport, use sand to kill, put people in walls etc. That needs extreme clarity, not just a little. Instead it just looks like he can do everything.

Blame the filmmakers for this mess. Not audiences and fans. They have no problem enjoying X-Men films when they are good. DOFP is not a simple film and is far more complex in just about every way then this.

Again, he didn't put up a struggle. The electrical surge from Cerebro snapped him out of it. There were visual cures with the horsemen too. Such as them acting like zombies after they were empowered, even Magneto does this. Him, Storm, and Angel look and sound like they were in a trance. Even some of the reviews mentioned this and thought it was just bad acting.

I doubt any fan of the original story failed to catch this.

 

[def28]

Again, he didn't put up a struggle. The electrical surge from Cerebro snapped him out of it. There were visual cures with the horsemen too. Such as them acting like zombies after they were empowered, even Magneto does this. Him, Storm, and Angel look and sound like they were in a trance. Even some of the reviews mentioned this and thought it was just bad acting.

He does struggle and that is very shown, I don't care what took him out of it. It happens immediately . Here is what audiences saw, Apocaypse takes over Cerebro. Hank "someones taken over cerebro". Prof X looks like he gets poisoned with evil. This scene literally looks like a virus is taking everything over. Apocalypse looks like he's doing something and loving every bit of destruction and then Prof X freaks the heck out. That's what audience see. A character being completely over run, the main villain being bad and Prof X very quickly having a nervous breakdown cause these are horrible things that he could not control one way or the other.

The visual cues of the horsemen were ****ing horrible! and nowhere near the level of this scene. The horsemen don't say anything due to poor writing. That's it. Magneto is clearly capable of holding discussions. Psylocke gets like a line. Even after they "snap out of it" there are like no impactful signs of regret of what just happened. These characters need a psychologist asap. But hey Storm, you should come join us X-Men after everything you just showed... but without any real explanation. Audiences know you are an X-Men and thats good enough for now. Maybe we will give you a couple pages of dialogue in X-Men 11 that explain what you went through. Cause right now we don't even know how this works.

Now even if you think these are brilliant scenarios and how things should have been done, this still doesn't change the fact that you can't distinguish the difference between between Magneto and Charles. Or why an audience would blame one and not the other. One is trying to help while the other is destroying and openly saying he wants to destroy everything...again.

 

[Legion]

No I am saying what exactly are you expecting from it being held on his head? I assume some think he will turn up to help and they will be like hey remember when you killed people Eric? Go away!.

The film should have ended differently. Magneto could have turned himself in to authorities as penance for his crimes. Xavier let him off the hook in DoFP and Magneto went and caused chaos again.

Or the X-Men could have simply defeated him like the other horsemen.

 

[Stan Lee]

He does struggle and that is very shown, I don't care what took him out of it. It happens immediately within minutes. Here is what audiences saw, Apocaypse takes over Cerebro. Hank "someones taken over cerebro". Prof X looks like he gets poisoned with evil. Then Prof X freaks the heck out. That's what audience see. A character being completely over run and very quickly having a nervous breakdown.

The visual cues of the horsemen were ****ing horrible! and nowhere near the level of this scene. The horsemen don't say anything due to poor writing. That's it. Magneto is clearly capable of holding discussions, Psylocke gets like a line. Even after they "Snap out of it" there are like no signs of regret of what just happened.

I said they look and talk like they are in a trance. When Storm talks to Caliban she sounds so robotic and gives off menacing looks. A massive personality change from her last scene. And she does freak out when she snaps out of it, giving an "oh god what I am doing" look. I don't to see how you can think her cues were awful, they were almost as obvious as Xavier's.

Magneto makes little to no facial expressions whenever he is holding a discussion with Xavier. And said "no, I betrayed them" as a sign of regret.

Angel in the scene where he is in that warehouse looks like he is stoned out of his mind when ever he gets a close up.

This is what I am talking about.

 

[EnDz0n3]

^ IIRC Before this movie came out, Singer said the Horsemen are not mind-controlled.*

Remember when Apocalypse was still in production and people on here were worried the horsemen would be mind-controlled and mute and so some were against having named X-men as his followers? Maybe that would've been the better route. At least it gives them an actual excuse for all the death and destruction they've caused.

I find it funny when people on here point out legitimate concerns about plot holes. And certain people have ready-explanations.** It can't be Kinberg's fault how the script and plot holes are not being received well by the audience. Simon Kinberg, the writer of X3, Mr & Mrs. Smith, Fant4stic, XXX: State of the Union. Nah it can't be that.

Don't get me wrong, with all my recent posts here, I actually did enjoy the film. I just don't pretend it was perfect.

Edit:

*Added that first line in response.
** Reworded my original statement.

 

[def28]

Time will tell on XXX State Of The union haha.

I said they look and talk like they are in a trance. When Storm talks to Caliban she sounds so robotic and gives off menacing looks. A massive personality change from her last scene. And she does freak out when she snaps out of it, giving an "oh god what I am doing" look. I don't to see how you can think her cues were awful, they were almost as obvious as Xavier's.

You mean when she hovers down then smiles and nods to Magneto? And then Psylocke looks completely evil still and runs away?

How about some dialogue here for starters. So we know what our characters are thinking after they are responsible for the mess of destruction and death. Or is dialogue from Storm and Psylocke when they are not hypnotized or whatever asking for too much?

 

[Stan Lee]

^ IIRC Before this movie came out, Singer said the Horsemen are not mind-controlled.

Remember when Apocalypse was still in production and people on here were worried the horsemen would be mind-controlled and mute and so some were against having named X-men as his followers? Maybe that would've been the better route. At least it gives them an actual excuse for all the death and destruction they've caused.

There has to be an explanation for everything. It can't be Kinberg's fault how the script and plot holes are not being received well by the audience. Simon Kinberg, the writer of X3, Mr & Mrs. Smith, Fant4stic, XXX: State of the Union. Nah it can't be that.

Don't get me wrong, with all my recent posts here, I actually did enjoy the film. I just don't pretend it was perfect.

Edit: Added that first line in response.

Here is what he said:

He has various abilities and powers, one of them, like [Apocalypse actor Oscar Isaac said during the Comic-Con panel], is the power of persuasion, and part of why that's necessary is he needs other followers to be his Horsemen, and some of them would be hard to persuade - Magneto, Erik being the hardest. It's interesting, what's a little bit, hopefully, complex in the movie, or even ambiguous, is how much he's persuading his followers with a superhuman ability or just he's like any cult leader who is really good at convincing people to follow him, so we don't really ever make that explicit. It's not like he's putting people under a spell, but he is superhumanly persuasive.

This was pretty the same case as in the original story. Apocalypse drugged the horsemen and then persuaded them to commit their crimes. Similar to the recent Batman game.

The whole mind control stuff is something the cartoon and later comics did.

 

[marvelrobbins]

^ IIRC Before this movie came out, Singer said the Horsemen are not mind-controlled.

Remember when Apocalypse was still in production and people on here were worried the horsemen would be mind-controlled and mute and so some were against having named X-men as his followers? Maybe that would've been the better route. At least it gives them an actual excuse for all the death and destruction they've caused.

There has to be an explanation for everything. It can't be Kinberg's fault how the script and plot holes are not being received well by the audience. Simon Kinberg, the writer of X3, Mr & Mrs. Smith, Fant4stic, XXX: State of the Union. Nah it can't be that.

Don't get me wrong, with all my recent posts here, I actually did enjoy the film. I just don't pretend it was perfect.

Edit: Added that first line in response.

while i liked apocalypse the weakest part is the script.if it wasn't for singer as director despite somewhat dropping the ball it would be far worse

as for horseman it was inevital that storm,psylocke,adn angel wouldn't be devolped but some refused to see it.

 

[def28]

It's more that people want to see that these filmmakers learned their lesson. In any case making that choice won't leave fans happy. This series has killed and wasted enough X-Men. Time to stop, they are already in a bad enough position now.

 

[Frankeh]

And whats wrong with having him part ways with charles in a relaxed environment?, does he have to do a wolverine and just run off into the night with the idea in mind he will hide in a pit so he can't be in the next movie? is that the frame of mind?

If the frame of mind is to have people behave as if Magneto nearly destroyed the world, yes.

In X1 would you have had him sing Kumbaya with Xavier and the X-Men after the Liberty Island incident, too? I recall him being in a plastic prison, not helping the X-Men out in their mansion.

Look, if that's the kind of writing you want, good for you. I don't, and I've read plenty of people point out that ending is inappropiate in light of the events of the movie so I'm not alone on that.

And FYI, no I haven't defended Storm's place in the X-Men team because she's an X-Men member in comics. In fact I'm pretty sure I've said making her a horseman was a mistake and I don't buy the writers' shenanigans that the team welcomed her with open arms either. And the actual dialogue they gave her in the ending is kind of hilarious because it still gives us no idea of what she's thinking.

 

[Frankeh]

I said they look and talk like they are in a trance. When Storm talks to Caliban she sounds so robotic and gives off menacing looks. A massive personality change from her last scene. And she does freak out when she snaps out of it, giving an "oh god what I am doing" look. I don't to see how you can think her cues were awful, they were almost as obvious as Xavier's.

Magneto makes little to no facial expressions whenever he is holding a discussion with Xavier. And said "no, I betrayed them" as a sign of regret.

Angel in the scene where he is in that warehouse looks like he is stoned out of his mind when ever he gets a close up.

This is what I am talking about.

Sounds like you're making excuses for the simple fact that the writers gave more lines to Magneto than the rest, because Magneto is one of their flagship characters.

 

[Frankeh]

The film should have ended differently. Magneto could have turned himself in to authorities as penance for his crimes. Xavier let him off the hook in DoFP and Magneto went and caused chaos again.

Or the X-Men could have simply defeated him like the other horsemen.

Thank you! I don't understand how the writers missed that. If they wanted that happy ending so bad, the rest of the film should've been entirely different.

 

[Stan Lee]

Sounds like you're making excuses for the simple fact that the writers gave more lines to Magneto than the rest, because Magneto is one of their flagship characters.

Your reply has nothing do with what I said because I didn't say anything about their lines.

How about some dialogue here for starters. So we know what our characters are thinking after they are responsible for the mess of destruction and death. Or is dialogue from Storm and Psylocke when they are not hypnotized or whatever asking for too much?

Storm and Psylocke didn't kill anyone though.

But speaking of dialogue, how about Storm's before she became a horsemen? Her actions as a horseman sure do contradict it.

 

[def28]

Storm and Psylocke didn't kill anyone though.

Dude, did you not see what team they were fighting for? What movie did you watch seriously?

 

[Stan Lee]

Dude, did you not see what team they were fighting for? What movie did you watch seriously?

I'm saying they themselves never got their hands dirty.

 

[def28]

Nah, they just followed two guys who destroyed and murdered cities while attempting to kill X-Men.

 

[GuestStar2004]

The film should have ended differently. Magneto could have turned himself in to authorities as penance for his crimes. Xavier let him off the hook in DoFP and Magneto went and caused chaos again.

Xavier let him off the hook and he went and stayed out of trouble for years, settled down to a normal life and whatever else before having his life ripped from him before and apocalypse along.

It's all a series of unfortunate events.

 

[GuestStar2004]

In X1 would you have had him sing Kumbaya with Xavier and the X-Men after the Liberty Island incident, too? I recall him being in a plastic prison, not helping the X-Men out in their mansion.

Difference probably being magneto started X1 as a villain and ended as a villain, while with apocalypse it's abit more of a bumpy ride then that

And FYI, no I haven't defended Storm's place in the X-Men team because she's an X-Men member in comics. In fact I'm pretty sure I've said making her a horseman was a mistake and I don't buy the writers' shenanigans that the team welcomed her with open arms either. And the actual dialogue they gave her in the ending is kind of hilarious because it still gives us no idea of what she's thinking.

Lucky they have a telepath or 2 who can read her mind and realise any regrets she may have over it or any good she may want to do now.

Not everything is black or white

 

[X-Maniac]

I've no problem with the horsemen they chose... but they needed more dialogue to explain their presence in the story, not just because they are key characters from the books.

A few lines of dialogue only takes a few seconds of screentime, so there's no excuse. Too much was glossed over or poorly explained. Extended Edition, please...

 

[Legion]

Difference probably being magneto started X1 as a villain and ended as a villain, while with apocalypse it's abit more of a bumpy ride then that



Lucky they have a telepath or 2 who can read her mind and realise any regrets she may have over it or any good she may want to do now.

Not everything is black or white

Storm is young and impressionable in this film which is the reason I give her a pass. Generally though, feeling bad after you do something terrible isn't enough to protect you from the consequences of your actions.

 

[Legion]

Xavier let him off the hook and he went and stayed out of trouble for years, settled down to a normal life and whatever else before having his life ripped from him before and apocalypse along.

It's all a series of unfortunate events.

It doesn't matter that he was on his best behavior for a few years. He tried to kill the president with the whole world watching. He nearly ensured his own species extinction. He deserved to go back in that cell beneath the Pentagon. Xavier trusted that his friend was still in there and gave him a get out of jail fee card.

10 years later magneto returns Xavier's mercy by coming back and causing even more death and destruction and.. he's let off the hook again bit I'm sure he's really learned his lesson this time.

 

[Stan Lee]

10 years later magneto returns Xavier's mercy by coming back and causing even more death and destruction and.. he's let off the hook again bit I'm sure he's really learned his lesson this time.

Not like he is in any position to judge him. Considering Erik was being drugged up by Apocalypse's power up to cause that death & destruction, just like Xavier was not too long before that.

 

[Legion]

Not like he is in any position to judge him. Considering Erik was being drugged up by Apocalypse's power up to cause that death & destruction, just like Xavier was not too long before that.

I don't believe in that theory. He wasn't drugged up in the film I watched.