The Dark Knight Rises You Have My Permission To Lounge - Part 6

[shauner111]

At this point, it's hard for me to assume any DCEU movie will be good...but I think it's also premature to say Affleck's film is doomed just because it looks like he made his first critically mixed/panned film. His three other movies should count for something too, one of which won Best Picture.

I do agree that his relentless schedule could be an issue though.

But the one that won best picture is his weakest in my opinion.

Ben needs to stop being so full of himself, and cast other people in his movies instead of getting himself to pretty much play the lead in 3 movies in a row. Even when most people around him could tell him that he's not fit for every one of these roles.

Maybe he rushed the script for Live By Night. Taking his time with The Batman script is a good thing though. This will surely get him in a bad enough mood to REALLY make sure everything is good next time.

Maybe he shouldn't be directing The Batman. Maybe that's something to think about.

 

[ThisGuy4000]

No movie is guaranteed to do well with critics.

Unless it's an MCU film, or a post-George Lucas Star Wars film of course. Despite some of the complaints about the MCU being too formulaic, the formula that they're sticking too seems to be failure-proof if a movie directed by the guy who directed The Day the Earth Stood Still can make a well-received movie.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

We don't celebrate tinfoil hats in here sir.

 

[The Joker]

Unless it's an MCU film, or a post-George Lucas Star Wars film of course. Despite some of the complaints about the MCU being too formulaic, the formula that they're sticking too seems to be failure-proof if a movie directed by the guy who directed The Day the Earth Stood Still can make a well-received movie.

That's just proof that someone who has previously directed critically slammed movies is not guaranteed to always be a failure critically with movies. Same as how someone who has a previous good track record critically directing movies is not guaranteed to always be a winner critically, as Affleck's latest movie is seemingly proving.

Likewise following a formula doesn't guarantee critical success e.g. all the slasher movies that followed John Carpenter's Halloween in the 80's. They tried to follow his formula with a bunch of teenagers, sex, killer in a mask etc. But they couldn't capture his magic and critical success of Halloween. Even the Halloween sequels couldn't.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Disney gives substandard directors a new pair of eyes, WB gives "visionary" directors cinematic glaucoma.

 

[ThisGuy4000]

That's just proof that someone who has previously directed critically slammed movies is not guaranteed to always be a failure critically with movies. Same as how someone who has a previous good track record critically directing movies is not guaranteed to always be a winner critically, as Affleck's latest movie is seemingly proving.

Likewise following a formula doesn't guarantee critical success e.g. all the slasher movies that followed John Carpenter's Halloween in the 80's. They tried to follow his formula with a bunch of teenagers, sex, killer in a mask etc. But they couldn't capture his magic and critical success of Halloween. Even the Halloween sequels couldn't.

I'm not saying that following a formula is always good, in fact, it usually isn't good. In Marvel's case though, they have a formula that's more or less unbeatable. The same can't be said for DC.

At this point, it doesn't seem like it's even possible for DC/WB to make a "good" movie, unless it's a full blown comedy starring Adam West.

They couldn't even do an animated adaptation of The Killing Joke right, although I'm not too surprised at how poorly that film turned out, given Bruce Timm's track record with Batgirl...

 

[The Joker]

If Marvel has a formula, it's called making good movies. They get a good script, a good cast, and a director who can carry through the vision of the story and this universe. Proof of this is when they can turn unknown characters who sound ridiculous on paper like Ant-Man and turn it into a success both critically and financially. They know how to sell a character and the character's story.

Their only real 'misfire' is Thor the Dark World. Granted it still ended up with a fresh rating of 66%. But by the MCU's standards and good CBM standards in general, that's pretty weak. I mean even some of DC's weaker efforts like Superman Returns fared better than that.

DC/WB need to just get their s*** together and hire some real talent and let said talent do their job like they did with Nolan and the TDK trilogy.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

I'm gaining new appreciation for Kevin Feige and co, they took in directors with shoddy resumes and love for these characters, and guided them to make impressive movies.

 

[shauner111]

They don't get Batman and never will. Nolan and Burton (plus everyone who kept him in line the first time) are the only ones that could get something good on screen. WB can't tell if somebody understands the character or not, no matter how good of a director they are or what their vision is. Doomed if they control what the director is doing because they don't know who batman is. COULD be doomed if they give a director full creative control because they don't know what's good, bad, accurate, inaccurate..

Maybe that changes now that more DC people have their hands in there. But what works in modern comics, may not work on screen. Hell, it barely works in the comics! And Warner Brothers probably think "we got it now boys and girls! DC's finest up in here!". It doesn't always work that way. So they'll never learn. Even if The Batman turns out great.

WB should just let go of Batman if Ben's movie + Justice League don't do well. What are they going to do after if they reboot the character or try a Batman Beyond in the early 2020's and THAT fails too? I guarantee they take a 5 year break after "The Batman" if it does horrible numbers or gets panned by critics right? So if they come back with a weak reboot, they're screwed. It's a massive gamble either way because they'll need to wait for somebody to step into their office with one hell of a pitch just like Nolan did back in 2003. And that doesn't always happen.

Speaking of Batman Beyond, if they don't get a past (loved) actor to play the part of Bruce, they shouldn't even try it. Because it will bomb BIG time. Does anybody really think Ben will want to reprise the role again if his own Batman film is being laughed at? This guy gets pissed and embarrassed quite easy. I seriously doubt he'll even want to come back for a second Justice League, so let's hope The Batman is a great movie. Not only for the sake of seeing a good movie, but who knows how long it will be before another reboot takes place. It's sad to think about.

It would not surprise me if WB are crying, thinking about what could have been if Nolan gave in and sold out for them.

 

[ThisGuy4000]

Talent is subjective. Many people would consider David Ayer to have a certain talent, but that didn't stop SS from being even more poorly received than BvS, and I don't think that movie's shortcomings can be entirely attributed to WB's meddling.

Frankly, I'm beginning to think that making a shared universe for DC was a mistake. Marvel already beat them to it, so they were going to be viewed as playing catch-up no matter what. People like to argue that WB/DC's problem is that they're rushing things, but are they really? There was a nearly 3-year gap between their first and second films, and it won't be until movie number 5 when they do they big team-up movie.

It pains me to say this, but DC character might just be better off staying on a comic book page. I don't even think their animated output has ever been that good. I always hated the DCAU, and I think that it butchered characters like the Joker and Wonder Woman.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

To be fair guys, DC is doing some neat things. Can't knock em for that.

I mean, take BvS, it ends with a 40 minute climax with a CGI monster. Totally unheard of. Never before seen in a comic book movie. Talk about averting formula!

How about Man of Steel? Aping the structure of BB wholesale? What a bold artistic risk!

We must give DCEU its due for always pushing the genre forward with these invaluable measures.

 

[shauner111]

Well Ayer is a hit and miss anyway. He has talent but he needs the right project, the right studio, etc. I should have known that Suicide Squad could be a complete disaster since WB is the studio and Ayer doesn't have a perfect track record. What was that dumb Arnold movie he did? Ouuf.

A shared universe was always a mistake because it wasn't the right time to pull the trigger ThisGuy4000. They should have made a Superman sequel, forgot about Suicide Squad for a long while, and started building their blocks carefully (not with a Civil War, Cap vs Iron Man concept that leads to a first Avengers). That's essentially what they did. It doesn't make sense. The order of everything is incredibly daft.

Lmao Tacit.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

People like to argue that WB/DC's problem is that they're rushing things, but are they really? There was a nearly 3-year gap between their first and second films, and it won't be until movie number 5 when they do they big team-up movie.

I would say yeah, they did. The time between movies is irrelevant. The fact is that they shot their load with their big team up on the second movie. Imagine Marvel doing the Avengers in lieu of Iron Man 2.

I always hated the DCAU, and I think that it butchered characters like the Joker and Wonder Woman.

...................

 

[Ivan Drago]

Talent is subjective. Many people would consider David Ayer to have a certain talent, but that didn't stop SS from being even more poorly received than BvS, and I don't think that movie's shortcomings can be entirely attributed to WB's meddling.

Frankly, I'm beginning to think that making a shared universe for DC was a mistake. Marvel already beat them to it, so they were going to be viewed as playing catch-up no matter what. People like to argue that WB/DC's problem is that they're rushing things, but are they really? There was a nearly 3-year gap between their first and second films, and it won't be until movie number 5 when they do they big team-up movie.

It pains me to say this, but DC character might just be better off staying on a comic book page. I don't even think their animated output has ever been that good. I always hated the DCAU, and I think that it butchered characters like the Joker and Wonder Woman.

 

[ThisGuy4000]

I know people love to praise the DCAU and say that Mark Hamill's Joker is the definitive take, but I just didn't like how he was portrayed in those shows. The Joker in the DCAU was terrified of death (so much to the point that he started begging for his life when some average Joe threatened him with a fake bomb), was easily aggravated (so much to the point where Terry was able to get under his skin simply by implying he isn't funny), and wanted to kill Batman because he couldn't stand how Batman was always foiling his plans, which kind of ruins what made his relationship with Batman so compelling in the first place. Also, why does the Joker need a girlfriend?

As for Wonder Woman, type up "Diana gets really pissed" on YouTube, and you might see what I mean.

 

[Auteur]

Frankly, I'm beginning to think that making a shared universe for DC was a mistake. Marvel already beat them to it, so they were going to be viewed as playing catch-up no matter what. People like to argue that WB/DC's problem is that they're rushing things, but are they really? There was a nearly 3-year gap between their first and second films, and it won't be until movie number 5 when they do they big team-up movie.

What happened after Man of Steel though? I can't recall a time where anything was ever announced or planned in terms of setting up a larger universe, other than a possible trilogy of Superman solo films and then that changed.

There may be a 3 year gap, but it all sounds like they sat twidling their thumbs and then hit the panic button once Batman v Superman was in production.

 

[ThisGuy4000]

What happened after Man of Steel though? I can't recall a time where anything was ever announced or planned in terms of setting up a larger universe, other than a possible trilogy of Superman solo films and then that changed.

There may be a 3 year gap, but it all sounds like they sat twidling their thumbs and then hit the panic button once Batman v Superman was in production.

They announced BvS after MoS. Their slate wasn't anymore rushed than the MCU. You don't need 80 movies about one character before you can start adding in others. The problem is in the execution, and the fact that Marvel already beat them to the punch.

 

[BatmanBeyond]

In all seriousness, I think Nolan has said everything he wanted to say with the character.

However, especially after seeing Westworld...I would love it if Jonathan Nolan returned to the Bat-franchise some day. He's the bigger fanboy anyway. I'd love to see if he had another Batman story to tell years down the road.

Was thinking the same thing a few days ago, haha. Westworld was great, best thing I've seen in a while. OST is ****ing **** too.

Anyway, this'll probably never happen, but I'd be intrigued by Jonah tackling the 8 year gap between TDK and TDKR in a TV series - it would probably be a 1 season thing, where we get some unconfirmed sightings of the Batman, as well as the immediate fallout from the ending of TDK. Granted, these two things are pretty sketchy, but I think something like this would have potential.

 

[BatLobster]

But the one that won best picture is his weakest in my opinion.

Ben needs to stop being so full of himself, and cast other people in his movies instead of getting himself to pretty much play the lead in 3 movies in a row. Even when most people around him could tell him that he's not fit for every one of these roles.

Maybe he rushed the script for Live By Night. Taking his time with The Batman script is a good thing though. This will surely get him in a bad enough mood to REALLY make sure everything is good next time.

Maybe he shouldn't be directing The Batman. Maybe that's something to think about.

I've been saying he should stop starring in his own movies since forever. I do think Argo was a very good movie though- I thought it was the trickiest tone to pull off out of all his movies so far and the movie nailed that aspect.

I can only take a wait and see approach at this point. Affleck has talent behind the camera, we know that. So to me it's mainly going to be a matter of what story do they have to tell here...do Affleck and Johns have something fresh and relevant to say with the character? What is their take? How will it break from what's come before and how it will it honor it? How will the villains they chose fit into the story and the themes they want to explore? To me those are the big questions. If they have all their ducks in a row there and a good script, then I'm confident enough in Affleck's storytelling ability as a filmmaker to believe the movie will be on the right course. IMO a lot of this comes down to the script, which we simply have no idea about at this point.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

I tried to watch the final battle in BvS again on youtube. I stopped two minutes into it. It's just so disengaging. I can't continue.

 

[Kane52630]

It's like watching a cutscene to a video game.

 

[shauner111]

Affleck can elevate a generic idea, script, whatever it is because he's a good director. But that doesn't mean he can make it into a great film. The Town was very predictable, everyone was smokin hot, and you can see almost everything coming. His direction helped get that film to a solid level. He can get a good performance out of his actors (helps that he's been in front of the camera). Dialogue was fine too (Ben knows his way around a screenplay). All scenes were well paced and shot. He built tension well. The action was handled well. But the actual story had a "been there, done that" vibe to it all the way through.

Argo was incredibly well directed. The humor and tension was so well balanced. But I still felt like something was missing. It was a little bit dull in places and Ben was sorta...miscast. Another solid film but Best Picture? It felt like a typical choice for the Academy because of its content so now it's not surprising to me, but I still don't think it was the best film of that year or of Ben's career. But that's the Oscars. It's political.

Live By Night is apparently dull as hell, with a slow pace and Ben is miscast. I heard things like you don't care about these characters in the movie and the relationships are forced. I also heard decent things about the action and nobody is talking smack about the dialogue as far as I know. Just a mixed bag all around. It sounds like the problem this time around is not the story but the execution. Execution is something Ben does well. Turning something OK on the page into something worthwhile. Live By Night could be the opposite.

So now Batman can go either way.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

I don't even think their animated output has ever been that good. I always hated the DCAU, and I think that it butchered characters like the Joker and Wonder Woman.

Spoiler

[YT]EGd1BSw767k[/YT]

Poor Joker, right?

 

[shauner111]

Was thinking the same thing a few days ago, haha. Westworld was great, best thing I've seen in a while. OST is ****ing **** too.

Anyway, this'll probably never happen, but I'd be intrigued by Jonah tackling the 8 year gap between TDK and TDKR in a TV series - it would probably be a 1 season thing, where we get some unconfirmed sightings of the Batman, as well as the immediate fallout from the ending of TDK. Granted, these two things are pretty sketchy, but I think something like this would have potential.

I still have to dig into Westworld. I'm waiting until I see all of the 2016 films that I need to see (Moonlight, Silence, La La Land, Nocturnal Animals and Manchester By The Sea). And I have to finish Luke Cage. BUT, I watched most of episode 1 of Westworld lol and it was bananas.

Jonah would be perfect for a Nolanverse film. Whether it's a HBO mini-series with Gary Oldman as the lead (would Bale return?? Even as Bruce only?). Or a Catwoman prequel with Hathaway and Juno Temple? Better do it soon before Anne starts aging. Would Jonah direct or just write?

 

[Kane52630]

It pains me to say this, but DC character might just be better off staying on a comic book page. I don't even think their animated output has ever been that good. I always hated the DCAU, and I think that it butchered characters like the Joker and Wonder Woman.