The Dark Knight Rises You Have My Permission To Lounge - Part 6

[The Joker]

I know people love to praise the DCAU and say that Mark Hamill's Joker is the definitive take, but I just didn't like how he was portrayed in those shows. The Joker in the DCAU was terrified of death (so much to the point that he started begging for his life when some average Joe threatened him with a fake bomb), was easily aggravated (so much to the point where Terry was able to get under his skin simply by implying he isn't funny), and wanted to kill Batman because he couldn't stand how Batman was always foiling his plans, which kind of ruins what made his relationship with Batman so compelling in the first place. Also, why does the Joker need a girlfriend?

He doesn't. He only uses her because she's useful to him as hired help. He can function perfectly fine without Harley around, as we saw several of his episodes were Harley free, including in the spin off movies like MOTP.

Letoker on the other hand can't stand being without his gf.

I tried to watch the final battle in BvS again on youtube. I stopped two minutes into it. It's just so disengaging. I can't continue.

I'm impressed you managed to watch two whole minutes. 120 seconds of that dreck takes some patience.

Spoiler

[YT]EGd1BSw767k[/YT]

Poor Joker, right?

The darkest the DCAU Joker ever got. One of of my fav ever Joker sequences.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

That's the first time I've ever heard someone say the DCAU butchered the Joker

Stuff like that is what keeps me coming back here!

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Okay. I just rewatched the chase scene. I....I can't begin to explain how dumb Batmobile dragging around the vehicle is. Apparently Batman can see into the future. He knew that one of the goon's vehicle would stop at the exact place where Batman can somehow defy physics and bounce off the dragging vehicle on top of it.

I am convinced this sequence wasn't put to paper. Snyder just shot whatever his subconscious dreamed of.

 

[ThisGuy4000]

He doesn't. He only uses her because she's useful to him as hired help. He can function perfectly fine without Harley around, as we saw several of his episodes were Harley free, including in the spin off movies like MOTP.

Letoker on the other hand can't stand being without his gf.

Why did they give him a girlfriend in the first place? Why does the Joker even keep her around? I know that Timm and Dini gave a b.s. explanation for why Harley exists, but I don't buy it. You're telling me they went through the trouble of designing a unique looking henchwoman for the Joker, just so she could open a door for him?

Frankly, the more cynical side of me is under the impression that the real reason Harley Quinn existed was because they didn't want people thinking that the Joker is gay. Speaking of which, remember how the recent animated adaptation of The Killing Joke (which was overseen by Bruce Timm) established that the Joker apparently frequents prostitutes? Yeah...

 

[Tacit Ronin]

If they were concerned about a villain coming off as 'gay' they would've given Bane, Killa Croc, Scarecrow and The Riddler female companions too.

 

[ThisGuy4000]

Spoiler

[YT]EGd1BSw767k[/YT]

Poor Joker, right?

I never said that the Joker wasn't evil in that show (although he mostly was just a watered down version of Nicholson's Joker, barring Return of the Joker), but I just went over why I don't like that version of the character. Furthermore, I think the concept of the Joker creating a device that allows him to possess someone is insanely stupid. Since when did the Joker become Ra's Al Ghul?

 

[ThisGuy4000]

If they were concerned about a villain coming off as 'gay' they would've given Bane, Killa Croc, Scarecrow and The Riddler female companions too.

Wasn't the Riddler shown to be flustered by a couple of women in that show? Also, how often do people question the sexualities of characters like Bane and Scarecrow? The Joker is a character who has had his fair share of subtext with Batman (especially when Frank Miller wrote him), so I don't think it's far fetched to assume that Tim and Dini came up with Harley Quinn solely so that people wouldn't think the Joker is gay.

Honestly, I hate the concept of giving the Joker a girlfriend in general. The Joker doesn't strike me as someone who's interested in sex. I don't care if the Joker doesn't really care about Harley, the simple fact that he keeps her around and is implied to have been sexually active with her on a couple of occasions suggests that he apparently enjoys sex, which is stupid for a character like him.

That's why I personally never cared for Harley Quinn as a character. She served no real purpose other than being another example of Bruce Timm and Paul Dini depicting their own fetishes through their work.

Anyway, I know I'm not going to get anyone agreeing with me in regards to my opinion on the DCAU, so I'm just going to leave it that that.

 

[shauner111]

If Joker thinks it's fun, he'll do it. Sex is fun. He just wouldn't be obsessed with it. He could do without it, doesn't mean he wouldn't enjoy it.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Have you seen Bane?

Scarecrow has a bag over his head.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Okay guys: I am watching Suicide Squad. I will provide commentary as I go.

First five minutes:....da ****? Right off the bat it feels like it's directed by two different people. What's up with the editing of this thing?

Ten mintues: I thought Batman stopped being a jerk after Superman killed himself? He says he doesn't wanna do this in front of Deadshot's daughter ....and then he does it in front of her anyways. What a heedless ahole.

And the dialogue in this film....good god. I feel second hand embarrassment for the actos.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Fifteen minutes: I haven't cringed at the Joker yet. Actually finding Harley more insufferable. I can't believe some of her line readings made the cut. Poor directing.

This feel seems to want to be a self aware caper with Tarantino-esque exposition vintages as well as an earnest drama. It's failing so far.

 

[The Joker]

Why did they give him a girlfriend in the first place? Why does the Joker even keep her around? I know that Timm and Dini gave a b.s. explanation for why Harley exists, but I don't buy it. You're telling me they went through the trouble of designing a unique looking henchwoman for the Joker, just so she could open a door for him?

Because she was a great example of the mind screw manipulations that Joker is capable of. He was able to turn his own psychiatrist insane and hopelessly in love with him.

I don't care whether you buy it or not, because it's still the truth. Harley was not created just to open a door for Joker. She was not even originally created to be his gf. She was originally created as a walk on role. A one off episode as a fun side kick for Joker's particular caper in 'Joker's Favor'. You notice in that episode there is no romantic connotations between them. She never calls him puddin or gets romantic with him at all. In fact she calls him boss several times. Because that was what she was originally meant to be. Just one of the hired help. Like the villains in the 60's Batman TV show always had these beautiful women working for them.

They were never planning to bring her back after that. But the character proved so popular that they brought her back and gave her an interesting back story. She doesn't alter or hurt his character in any way. If anything she's a great example of showing how nasty Joker can be with how he treats her.

Frankly, the more cynical side of me is under the impression that the real reason Harley Quinn existed was because they didn't want people thinking that the Joker is gay.

Your cynical side is away with the pixies. The character existed without Harley or any kind of gf for over 50 years. Why would they be worried now that people might think he's gay? Why don't they worry that Penguin, Riddler, Scarecrow etc might be seen as gay, too? Why don't they all get girlfriends?

Speaking of which, remember how the recent animated adaptation of The Killing Joke (which was overseen by Bruce Timm) established that the Joker apparently frequents prostitutes? Yeah...

Yeah....so? Where was his poon tang in Under the Red Hood? Timm's decision to say Joker screws prostitutes in TKJ was frankly bizarre and stupid, but you're kidding yourself if you think it's because it was to dispel notions that Joker is gay.

The Joker doesn't strike me as someone who's interested in sex.

And you're right. Watch how he reacts to Harley's attempts to seduce him in Mad Love for example.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

I thought Snyder was the man-teen. The way Ayer is filming Harley Quinn would make Michael Bay scream crass.

20 minutes: Does Waller have a background in advertising and marketing?

Something to take note, I still haven't seen a scene yet. It has all been montages until now. No actual scene.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

How nice of Enchantress to respect America's puritan values when showing Rick Flagg visions. His girlfriend's boobies are conveniently covered by Victoria's Secret's most expensive pair.

 

[The Joker]

This is your first time watching SS?

 

[ThisGuy4000]

Your cynical side is away with the pixies. The character existed without Harley or any kind of gf for over 50 years. Why would they be worried now that people might think he's gay? Why don't they worry that Penguin, Riddler, Scarecrow etc might be seen as gay, too? Why don't they all get girlfriends?

Timm and Dini didn't write for the Joker up until 1992. Also, Penguin and Riddler were clearly shown to be attracted to women in the DCAU, and the Joker is the one who's had all the subtext with Batman.

Regarding Mad Love, heseemed more annoyed than repulsed by her, and that was because he was trying to find out how to kill Batman.

By the way, what's your explanation for the line about the Joker sleeping with prostitues? That line had no reason to be there, and it just added to the unfortunate implications regarding what he possibly did to Barbara...

Just for the record, me saying that I've "always" hated the DCAU isn't exactly accurate. I actually got into superheroes because of shows like BTAS, but the DCAU doesn't hold up for me. It's just a bunch of sexual innuendos and weird interpretations of the comics. Bateman and Batgirl? No thank you...

If you like the DCAU, good for you, but I'm not going to let nostalgia blind me to that stuff. Besides, after that inexscusably awful Killing Joke movie, I officially have no respect for Bruce Timm whatsoever. He's just as bad as Snyder if you ask me.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

43 mintues: this must be the most emotionally distant destruction of a city that I've ever seen. And that's saying something in Hollywood. Nothing matters.

 

[The Joker]

Timm and Dini didn't write for the Joker up until 1992. Also, Penguin and Riddler were clearly shown to be attracted to women in the DCAU, and the Joker is the one who's had all the subtext with Batman.

Yeah, and they didn't originally write Joker with Harley in the show. Or even introduce her as his gf. Timm and Dini didn't intend for Harley to be a long term character. Again what you keep ignoring is that she was not even introduced as his gf. She was not intended to be that, or even appear beyond one episode. They didn't even introduce the Joker with her. He had several solo episodes before Harley appeared.

If they were so concerned that Joker might seem gay they'd have had him with Harley as his gf from the get-go. The only reason she stuck around beyond one episode is because the fans loved her. So they gave her a plausible back story as to why a beautiful young woman would so loyally follow an insane clown continually.

Regarding Mad Love, heseemed more annoyed than repulsed by her, and that was because he was trying to find out how to kill Batman.

I never said he was repulsed by the idea of sex, I said he's not interested in it. The fact he is more interested in coming up with a plan to get Batman rather than get laid by Harley in her sexy lingerie to the point where he kicks her out in the dirt shows how uninterested he is in sex. In fact name one single scene in BTAS that shows Joker interested in getting romantic with Harley.

By the way, what's your explanation for the line about the Joker sleeping with prostitues? That line had no reason to be there, and it just added to the unfortunate implications regarding what he possibly did to Barbara...

I have no idea why it's there. The movie is loaded with pointless additions that were unnecessary. The whole Paris Franz story being a prime example of it. The kangaroo court scene with Joker, his circus freaks and Gordon is another.

Just for the record, me saying that I've "always" hated the DCAU isn't exactly accurate. I actually got into superheroes because of shows like BTAS, but the DCAU doesn't hold up for me. It's just a bunch of sexual innuendos and weird interpretations of the comics. Bateman and Batgirl? No thank you...

If you like the DCAU, good for you, but I'm not going to let nostalgia blind me to that stuff.

Tell me you're not ignorantly suggesting that's why so many people like it. Because they're blinded by nostalgia.

Besides, after that inexscusably awful Killing Joke movie, I officially have no respect for Bruce Timm whatsoever.

No offense but that's a ridiculous reason to lose all respect for him. That's like losing all respect for Steven Spielberg, and all his brilliant movies he's done are suddenly irrelevant, just because he made weak movies like Hook or The BFG.

He's just as bad as Snyder, if not worse.

I can't even take you seriously any more.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

I wanna watch a poorly dubbed hentai anime to wash off the awful dialogue in this movie.

And what's with the flashbacks detailing everybody's backstory? Just tell the story dumbasses.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

So they tell em what's up five meters before reaching the destination? .......

Deadshot: I don't save people.

It's okay Slade. Neither did Superman.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

So far the best part of this movie: giving kiddies a quick history lesson of the treatment of native Americans by the whites.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

I really like Tacit's Suicide Squad Commentary!

We should all watch BvS at the same time and have a commentary thread! how fun*

Spoiler

* = the same kind of fun Zack Snyder was referring to when deciding to shoot Undercover CIA Agent Jimmy Olsen in the face

 

[The Joker]

I don't think I could sit through BvS again.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

No! Boomerang's Pony!

Apparently Harley has amazing accuracy with weapons and a super bat.

Ayer has graduated from the Lucas school of directing. If I see one more scene of people talking while walking!

 

[Chip Chipperson]

I don't think I could sit through BvS again.

I would say there is no amount of alcohol to help me get through watching 3 hours of that, but that would be a lie

A Beautiful Lie, that is!