The Dark Knight Rises You Have My Permission To Lounge - Part 8

[BatLobster]

Well, she did have a TV show that's fondly remembered for what it's worth. But yes, I do think it's weird she never had a movie prior to now, now that I think about it. Was there ever talk of doing one? I mean, before someone says it never happened because of institutional sexism, don't forget, we didn't get a Spider-Man movie until 2000, despite several attempts previously.

Nobody said anything about institutional sexism except you here, just saying.

But yes, there have been attempts. Joss Whedon wrote a Wonder Woman script I believe in 2007. Simple fact of the matter is that ever since the 80s, WB has had cold feet when it comes to all non-Batman DC characters including Superman. I think you can attribute a lot of it to that, but I think a female-led action/superhero movie was viewed as a financial risk for a pretty long time. So it's a number of factors. Obviously it also took quite some time for superheroes to lose their stigma as corny children's entertainment, which is why it still took 40-50 years for Superman and Batman to get their first true Hollywood, big budget feature films that took them seriously. There's also the fact that Wonder Woman's backstory has changed a lot over the years, so that probably made developing a 'definitive' script a bit of a challenge too.

 

[BaelaTargaryen]

According to misslane, it's sexist to consider Snyderman sulky.

She's positive because of her privilege -- the privilege she has as an outsider and someone raised as a special princess. White people and men often have a more positive outlook on the world compared to people of color and women, because they have grown up in a world where they felt secure. That isn't to say I dislike having that kind of idealism portrayed, but I do think it's unfair to compare her mindset to people like Superman who grew up knowing the world and who went further than Diana by putting himself in front of the human race as a public figure under public scrutiny.

What about her was uniquely feminine other than physically? I notice that you bash Superman for sulking, which is just a derogatory spin on his being sensitive, pensive, and emotional, which are supposedly more feminine traits. It's fascinating how it's empowering and acceptable for a female hero to be both strong and vulnerable, but if a male hero shows vulnerability, it's scoffed at and derided.

 

[shauner111]

She's a loon and takes fictional characters way too seriously.

 

[I Am The Knight]

 

[titansupes]

According to misslane, it's sexist to consider Snyderman sulky.

I couldn't be rolling my eyes harder right now.

 

[The Joker]

Her posts generally have that effect.

 

[Ivan Drago]

I think I have lost the ability to really like superhero films.

 

[The Shape]

That must suck.

 

[The Joker]

How come, Ivan?

 

[Ivan Drago]

How come, Ivan?

Well to be fair, I did love Logan. Ironically though I feel the reason why is because it's a deconstructionist film, and it's trying really hard to not be a comicbook movie.

Nowadays, I just see every cbm out of obligation. Usually I enjoy them to various degrees, but none of them stick with me. That saddens me, because I used be obsessed with comic books and superhero movies a few years back.

Some of my greatest theater experiences were with movies like Spider-Man, Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, and The Avengers. I don't get that feeling any more

 

[BatLobster]

That's what we call fatigue...join the club.

 

[shauner111]

I'm in that club too but i'm open to fresh ideas within the genre. I'm going into Wonder Woman with middle of the road expectations. I'm getting curious, can't lie. I want it to be fresh but i just don't believe the critics yet. Especially when it comes to Gal.

I saw half of Logan the other day. I want to finish it this weekend if i have the chance because i was soo locked in. It's really fantastic. It doesn't feel like a superhero movie and that's why i like it. I'm tired of the traditional formula. It's about as interesting to me as watching paint dry at this point.

Pretty bad when you just don't give a damn about any upcoming Batman movies. That could change in time but i really don't care right now. I know it comes off snobby, but blockbusters in general are a big snooze fest unless it's like Fury Road, Inception etc. You know, movies that are trying to bring something new to the table? Otherwise, count me out. I'll stick to my smaller films.

 

[The Joker]

I am starting to feel a bit of fatigue, too, if I am being honest. I waited nearly a week to see both Logan and Lego Batman. Usually with movies like that they would be day one viewings for me, or day 2 at the latest.

I still love CBMs, but I'm not feeling that same spark of eagerness to see them A.S.A.P. as I used to.

 

[Ivan Drago]

I guess now this is the "old man yells at cloud" thread

 

[shauner111]

I am starting to feel a bit of fatigue, too, if I am being honest. I waited nearly a week to see both Logan and Lego Batman. Usually with movies like that they would be day one viewings for me, or day 2 at the latest.

I still love CBMs, but I'm not feeling that same spark of eagerness to see them A.S.A.P. as I used to.

Yeah i waited a week too, for Logan. I skipped Lego Movie in the theater. Doing the same for Wonder Woman but for a variety of reasons. I'll do the same with Thor.

 

[JackWhite]

I'm seeing WW this coming Monday. Maybe I just need something to wash that awful taste of Alien Covenant out of my mouth.

 

[Ivan Drago]

The more I ponder about Wonder Woman, the less I think of it.

Might see it a second time, hopefully I like it more.

 

[Brother Jack]

That's what we call fatigue...join the club.

I am starting to feel a bit of fatigue, too, if I am being honest. I waited nearly a week to see both Logan and Lego Batman. Usually with movies like that they would be day one viewings for me, or day 2 at the latest.

I still love CBMs, but I'm not feeling that same spark of eagerness to see them A.S.A.P. as I used to.

I'm there as well, though I'm still seeing most of them that come out eventually. The days of opening night showings are mostly behind me, save for Star Wars. That's pretty much the only franchise I still have that excitement for.

But I don't think fatigue has to be a bad thing. There's an upside to it. The films that are really good stand out more. You become more selective about what you'll give your money to.

 

[shauner111]

I'm seeing WW this coming Monday. Maybe I just need something to wash that awful taste of Alien Covenant out of my mouth.

Saw Covenant tonight. I enjoyed it. Half Prometheus, half Alien. I still like Prometheus even though it got worse for me on the second and third viewing. A lot of dumb crap in that movie, but i still enjoyed watching it. This new one on the other hand, was a lot better. Hopefully the next one steps it up again, but i thought it was a dark, fun ride. Some characters needed to be developed more, the alien didn't look amazing, and some predictable moments for sure. But the tone was right, it looked great visually, and i loved everything with Fassbender. He's the true MVP of these prequels. I gave it a 3.5/5.

If Wonder Woman can reach that score for me, i'll be impressed.

Sounds like you hated Alien: Covenant lol.

 

[I Am The Knight]

Most people did

I still haven't seen WW. I expect it to be good, but I'm not terribly excited for it at the moment.

 

[DACrowe]

Well to be fair, I did love Logan. Ironically though I feel the reason why is because it's a deconstructionist film, and it's trying really hard to not be a comicbook movie.

Nowadays, I just see every cbm out of obligation. Usually I enjoy them to various degrees, but none of them stick with me. That saddens me, because I used be obsessed with comic books and superhero movies a few years back.

Some of my greatest theater experiences were with movies like Spider-Man, Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, and The Avengers. I don't get that feeling any more

I agree about there being oversaturation. Also for me, the fact most are now written like TV episodes instead of cinematic events just makes them feel kind of empty and disappointing.

But the last few months have been rejuvenating. I too loved Logan. It is deconstructionist, but it also is what I think superhero movies need to be... wildly different projects operating within other genres. Logan works beautifully as a modern day western, and it also works as a deconstructionist superhero movie too.

I know you didn't enjoy Wonder Woman as much as I did, but I also found that movie to have real heart. There is a thoughtfulness and grandeur about the picture and its depiction of the war that takes me back to Indiana Jones far more than any Captain America movie did. Now I know it is not as good, but to me the No Man's Land scene is a movie moment that will live on for many, many years. It will inspire generations of children.

So they can still make great superhero movies. And for me, a large part of it is getting away from, yes, Zack Snyder's grim dark ponderousness, but also the sitcom vibe to the MCU that has been dispiriting my interest in them since sometime midway through Phase 2.

Given how we now get six to eight superhero movies a year, I doubt any will take my imagination on a high as big as seeing Spider-Man for the first time in a movie or watching Nolan get Batman right. Then again, getting older plays a role in that too.

But right now, I am just happy 2017 is offering so many gems after how disappointing 2016 was by and large.

 

[shauner111]

Most people did

I still haven't seen WW. I expect it to be good, but I'm not terribly excited for it at the moment.

Most people did? Exaggerating much?

 

[DACrowe]

Saw Covenant tonight. I enjoyed it. Half Prometheus, half Alien. I still like Prometheus even though it got worse for me on the second and third viewing. A lot of dumb crap in that movie, but i still enjoyed watching it. This new one on the other hand, was a lot better. Hopefully the next one steps it up again, but i thought it was a dark, fun ride. Some characters needed to be developed more, the alien didn't look amazing, and some predictable moments for sure. But the tone was right, it looked great visually, and i loved everything with Fassbender. He's the true MVP of these prequels. I gave it a 3.5/5.

If Wonder Woman can reach that score for me, i'll be impressed.

Sounds like you hated Alien: Covenant lol.

You see this relates to our superhero discussion for me. I liked Prometheus because it took the franchise in a bold new direction. It was messy and flawed, but I loved David in it, liked Shaw, and was fascinated by the idea of the Engineers, and their biomechanical goo they used to make us, the xenomorph, and possible other terrible wonders. Why did they turn on us? So much potential.

And then Alien: Covenant just threw all of it in the dustbin and went back to formula. It is pretty much a rehash of the first Alien with much less interesting characters plus David. I loved David in this too, Fassbender is great. But how they handle Shaw is unforgivable, and how they erased all the potential of Prometheus' big ideas for a movie that just kind of lamely retreads Blade Runner in a boilerplate Alien movie template....

yeah. I had high hopes for Prometheus, was really curious about Covenant. Now I could care less what happens in the next movie or if there even is one.

 

[Shikamaru]

When you guys say 'fatigue', are you referring to just superhero films or superheroes in general?

I do feel fatigue when seeing all the Homecoming stuff, for example. However, all the discussions on Spidey got me in a big Spidey mood again. I went back and reread some of my favorite stuff from the Lee/Ditko and JMS runs. Then I went back and rewatched The Spectacular Spider-Man, and after I finished it I looked up how Greg Weisman's progress on Young Justice Season 3 was doing. All of that made me giddy. To me that's a sign I'm not really tired of superheroes per se.

So am I tired of superhero films then? There's a bit more truth to that, but Logan and Deadpool were two of the best cinematic experiences I ever had with a superhero. It's not just the quality, but the uniqueness and how they took me by surprise.

So then I'm tired of the generic shared universe idea? Even more truth to that, but even then there's caveats. I'm noticing a slower fatigue rate with the Netflix shows. Compared with the movies, they do distinctively feel like more of their own thing with their own tone (though I haven't seen Iron Fist so can't comment). Other than Daredevil Season 2, each of them left some impression on me.

So then if I had to pinpoint what exactly is causing the fatigue, I can only think of two sources.

The first is the nature of these films. They're not franchises that exist in the same universe anymore (if they ever were); they're one big franchise with a consistent tone. This would naturally skyrocket the chance of fatigue, on top of being counterintuitive to how a lot of these comics got started.

The second is what these studios are asking of us. It's not enough to just watch two films a year; to get the full Marvel experience you have to watch the shows, keep track of viral marketing, etc. Personally superheroes are just a fraction of my life at this point. A few years back I could fixate on them 24/7, but now I have to balance it with other shows, read political and philosophical books, keep up with news, try new activities, think of life goals, etc. I imagine others feel the same. I don't just mean you grow up and have less time, I mean that you prefer more diversity with age. At least I do. So when you get bombarded with the MCU while doing something else, it does get tiring.

It's possible to release things frequently but give your audience more variety and mental room to breathe. Disney Animation and Lucasfilm (so far - we'll see where that last one goes) have generally done a good job at it.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I am starting to feel a bit of fatigue, too, if I am being honest. I waited nearly a week to see both Logan and Lego Batman. Usually with movies like that they would be day one viewings for me, or day 2 at the latest.

I still love CBMs, but I'm not feeling that same spark of eagerness to see them A.S.A.P. as I used to.

For me it isn't just CBMs, it is films in general. Whether it is because there are so many other entertainment options today or simply because I'm older now and more patient, I just don't have that immediate desire to run out and see something at first opportunity anymore.

Actually it isn't even just films. It is the same way with video games too. It used to be if there was a big new game I wanted, I just had to go out and buy it and play it immediately, but now if I don't get to it for 6 months or two years, I'm perfectly fine with it.