BvS All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - - - Part 14

[ArmsHeldOut]

It's a reflection of how they are viewed in the comics. In the Comics they are Gods (magic and all) that technically could be considered Aliens.

That's not the issue, as I described it. The inconsistency is what I find fault with. And Odin never referred to Asgardians as long-lived humans in the comics, by the by. He would fall on his own spear before he ever mouthed such words.

 

[Wise]

Here are 2 more of here using her Lasso.

Gal could easily get into shape to the point where she resembles the Apocalypse/Supergirl animated and the comic Turner designed Wonder Woman.

 

[jmc]

I have no problem with the universe starting more serious and sci-fi (and I use that term loosely, what with the red laser eyes, flying, and the english speaking aliens), and introducing more and more craziness in future movies.

We are getting 'willpower rings' after all and a guy who can talk to fish. (well...presumably they'll use these characters eventually).

What do you think Man of Steel would have had to been like for WW and the Gods to fit when they're introduced later?

I think it would have had to have been purely a superhero movie, no different from Iron Man in its tone and execution. But it is anything but Iron Man in style, look, feel and frankly genre, as such we're now stuck with the formula MoS set and everything after has to fit that formula. I don't think sci-fi is a loose term to use at all, it is an apt description because the film has all the hallmarks of science fiction, the blue suit and cape doesn't change that. All that matters now is that both Batman and WW have to fit the mold MoS created, especially since this is a direct sequel not an extension.

 

[craigdbfan]

Who's starting to think that this movie will have some big "band/group" do the ending/credit theme for this movie?

With everyone that's going to be in this I feel it's almost a given at this point.

 

[jmc]

It's a reflection of how they are viewed in the comics. In the Comics they are Gods (magic and all) that technically could be considered Aliens.

You've gotta admit though the films have been inconsistent. For instance, I'm still not 100% sure who can and can't injure Thor. WW is a character where that problem has to be avoided.

 

[craigdbfan]

I thought Odin was just trying to make a point that Asgardians can still very much be killed and for them not to lose themselves in complete arrogance.

Then again they seem pretty damn immortal in The Avengers.

 

[Bathead]

Remember this is a direct sequel, it's not a WW story, she's going to have to fit into place, the world can't just accommodate magic, it's existence has to make sense and stay within the rules of the previous film. Marvel's world has always been neutral in comparison, pretty much anything can go in that universe and little explanation given because ultimately that's the world they've created. Man of Steel has set itself up as a Sci-fi world, that's the mold you've got to build everything off of.

And there is absolutely NOTHING in MOS that precludes the existence of magic, just because you don't see any magic in the movie does not mean that it does not exist at all. It's one movie, one story that takes place in one small part of the Earth. There are plenty of sci-fi stories that allow the appearance of magic in one form or another. Science and magic have co-existed in the DC comic universe since it's inception in the 30's and there is no reason whatsoever not to continue this tradition in the DCCU. Bringing in WW is a perfect way consistent with that history to introduce the concept of the existence of magic into this as yet mostly unformed universe yet.

 

[jmc]

I thought Odin was just trying to make a point that Asgardians can still very much be killed and for them not to lose themselves in complete arrogance.

Then again they seem pretty damn immortal in The Avengers.

That's kinda the point, it's a bit confusing, not to mention makes any threat toward the character completely empty. I've always maintained that WW can't have that kind of vagueness about how she can be hurt because it leads to story inconsistencies, which has happened multiple times over the decades. They just need to straight up define her.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I saw not a thing in MOS that some how through the narrative or overall "vibe" of the film that set up some kind of absolutist red line rule that say "nope, sorry... NO MAGICAL/MYSTICAL/SUPERNATURA/SPIRITUAL element allowed." Maybe it's me but isn't the whole Zod-damned reason to have a unified cinematic universe is so you can do both team ups with heroes from various origins as well as solo films that are mostly about the genre/mileu/"world" the heroes are known for?

 

[craigdbfan]

That's kinda the point, it's a bit confusing, not to mention makes any threat toward the character completely empty. I've always maintained that WW can't have that kind of vagueness about how she can be hurt because it leads to story inconsistencies, which has happened multiple times over the decades. They just need to straight up define her.

Easier said than done though man. The plot some times comes first over power level consistency (or lack thereof). I definitely prefer for them to focus on a solid story and character moments before some minor power level inconsistency that quite frankly only people like us really notice.

I don't think it's all too jarring seeing as it's something I didn't really give much thought to until it was mentioned in this thread.

 

[Wise]

You've gotta admit though the films have been inconsistent. For instance, I'm still not 100% sure who can and can't injure Thor. WW is a character where that problem has to be avoided.

It's the same in the comics though.

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

I think it would have had to have been purely a superhero movie, no different from Iron Man in its tone and execution. But it is anything but Iron Man in style, look, feel and frankly genre, as such we're now stuck with the formula MoS set and everything after has to fit that formula. I don't think sci-fi is a loose term to use at all, it is an apt description because the film has all the hallmarks of science fiction, the blue suit and cape doesn't change that. All that matters now is that both Batman and WW have to fit the mold MoS created, especially since this is a direct sequel not an extension.

Why are we "stuck" with it?

Just because Man of Steel is a more 'serious' movie, it doesn't mean this movie or future movies can't become more lighthearted. MOS did end at the Daily Planet after all.

-LOST got more sci-fi/fantasy as the seasons went on.
-Arrow is getting more sci-fi/fantasy as well with the recent introduction of powers.
-Fast Five/Six are far less realistic than the first Fast and Furious movies.
-Aliens is lighter and more actiony than Alien.
-The Hobbit is much more cartoony than Lord of the Rings.

 

[jmc]

And there is absolutely NOTHING in MOS that precludes the existence of magic, just because you don't see any magic n the movie does not mean that it does not exist at all. It's one movie, one story that takes place in one small part of the Earth. There are plenty of sci-fi stories that allow the appearance of magic in one form or another. Science and magic have co-existed in the DC comic universe since it's inception in the 30's and there is no reason whatsoever not to continue this tradition in the DCCU. Bringing in WW is a perfect way consistent with that history to introduce the concept of the existence of magic into this as yet mostly unformed universe yet.

We are not talking about the DC universe. This is still a Superman movie. We are not working with history, we are working with a clean slate. Here's the thing about MoS, it went out of its way to try and establish itself as being a 'real world' version of Superman, like it or not, any characters that comes here on after have to fit that world - and magic in the form of spells, gods, and demons, doesn't exist in the real world. Something along the lines of dimensional portals or some other theoretical higher dimension could explain Paradise Island and how it remains invisible, how WW gets her powers can be explain through Kryptonian bacteria merging with the ancient population of said invisible island, but 'magic' does not fit in the real world. The thing you've got to remember also is that there isn't any guarantee things will move beyond Batman getting a solo film, WW is only marginally closer to getter her own solo film than what she was a year ago. It's very possible that we don't move far beyond the MoS world.

 

[jmc]

Why are we "stuck" with it?

Just because Man of Steel is a more 'serious' movie, it doesn't mean this movie or future movies can't become more lighthearted. MOS did end at the Daily Planet after all.

-LOST got more sci-fi/fantasy as the seasons went on.
-Arrow is getting more sci-fi/fantasy as well with the recent introduction of powers.
-Fast Five is way crazier than the first Fast and Furious movie.
-Aliens is lighter and more actiony than Alien.
-The Hobbit is lighter than Lord of the Rings.

Do you want consistency? Those are some bad examples by the way.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

It's the same in the comics though.

In what way?

It's fine if they sought to establish Thor as a god perceived by modern-day humans as an alien, and just left it at that. They kept changing things around though. He went from regular (full) god, to demigod (or half god). (Tony Stark, a secular human, referred to him as such, btw) Then, they went back and forth between regular god and alien in the S.H.I.E.L.D series. And recently, in Thor: The Dark World, Odin himself claims they are "not gods" -- that they are, in fact, just long-lived humans. In the comics (and even the first movie), the gods themselves always regarded themselves as divine beings. For whatever reason, Disney or Marvel became increasingly uncomfortable with the term, so they kept changing the way the Asgardians are described from movie to movie.

 

[Wise]

In what way?

.

I meant in regards to power levels.

 

[Bathead]

Are we arguing? Because that is exactly how I feel. I don't want an explanation for WW/Thor's magical worlds. I just want them to drop that bombshell on the world and then we move on with their adventures. "I am an Amazon empowered by the gods worshipped by the ancient Greeks. My bracelets are made from the shield of Zeus and my lasso, which can compel someone to tell the truth is made from the girdle of Gaea." I don't see to big of a disagreement tween us.

Perhaps I'm not being as clear as I might think I am. I agree with your idea 100%. The problem I'm having is with some people's idea that MOS's pseudo-sci-if setting somehow eliminates the possibility of magic and gods existing in this world. I find that an absolutely ridiculous assertion, as the surface of this fictional universe has barely even been scratched yet. One movie does not a universe make, especially in a universe where such characters as the Flash exist, who can run faster than the speed of light, which is impossible in our world, but not in the DCU. Although I suppose some wag who thinks he's smart will propose that the Flash not be allowed to run that fast as it wouldn't be "realistic". Gimme a frickin' break. I'm getting tired of this proclivity for changing everything from the comics to fit some extremely narrow interpretation of what is and isn't "believable".

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

I meant in regards to power levels.

Speaking of power levels, why is Odin such weaksauce in TDW?? Isn't he supposed to be omnipotent?

Anyway..

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

We are not talking about the DC universe. This is still a Superman movie. We are not working with history, we are working with a clean slate. Here's the thing about MoS, it went out of its way to try and establish itself as being a 'real world' version of Superman, like it or not, any characters that comes here on after have to fit that world - and magic in the form of spells, gods, and demons, doesn't exist in the real world. Something along the lines of dimensional portals or some other theoretical higher dimension could explain Paradise Island and how it remains invisible, how WW gets her powers can be explain through Kryptonian bacteria merging with the ancient population of said invisible island, but 'magic' does not fit in the real world. The thing you've got to remember also is that there isn't any guarantee things will move beyond Batman getting a solo film, WW is only marginally closer to getter her own solo film than what she was a year ago. It's very possible that we don't move far beyond the MoS world.

Magic is not in the real world. No. Neither are aliens.

The world in Man of Steel is basically our world before they discover that aliens exist.

The world in Man of Steel is basically our world before they discover that 'magic' exists.

What's the difference?

 

[Wise]

Speaking of power levels, why is Odin such weaksauce in TDW?? Isn't he supposed to be omnipotent?

Anyway..

Weakened by his Odinsleep maybe? Who knows.

 

[jmc]

Magic is not in the real world. No. Neither are aliens.

The world in Man of Steel is basically our world before they discover that aliens exist.

The world in Man of Steel is basically our world before they discover that 'magic' exists.

What's the difference?

Look, not to point out the bleeding obvious but the odds of their being other life in the universe are astronomically greater than there ever being someone able to produce something you would call actual 'magic'. That's just how it is.

 

[Bathead]

Magic is not in the real world. No. Neither are aliens.

The world in Man of Steel is basically our world before they discover that aliens exist. Then they discover magic exists. Then they discover willpower rings exist. Then they discover that Atlantis exists. etc.

I don't see the problem.

Exactly. If you can't see that magic could fit into this world after only having seen ONE movie, then you have no imagination.

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

Look, not to point out the bleeding obvious but the odds of their being other life in the universe are astronomically greater than there ever being someone able to produce something you would call actual 'magic'. That's just how it is.

what if the aliens could do extraordinary things that we couldn't understand. Wouldn't we call that...magic?

 

[Wise]

Look, not to point out the bleeding obvious but the odds of their being other life in the universe are astronomically greater than there ever being someone able to produce something you would call actual 'magic'. That's just how it is.

 

[craigdbfan]

Perhaps I'm not being as clear as I might think I am. I agree with your idea 100%. The problem I'm having is with some people's idea that MOS's pseudo-sci-if setting somehow eliminates the possibility of magic and gods existing in this world. I find that an absolutely ridiculous assertion, as the surface of this fictional universe has barely even been scratched yet. One movie does not a universe make, especially in a universe where such characters as the Flash exist, who can run faster than the speed of light, which is impossible in our world, but not in the DCU. Although I suppose some wag who thinks he's smart will propose that the Flash not be allowed to run that fast as it wouldn't be "realistic". Gimme a frickin' break. I'm getting tired of this proclivity for changing everything from the comics to fit some extremely narrow interpretation of what is and isn't "believable".

Don't worry. There seems to be a shift going on in how these elements are being presented on film.

I think both DC and Marvel are starting to embrace their more "magic/cosmic" elements. Even if we get some sort of "pseudo magic/science" explanation I don't mind as long as the powers themselves work almost exactly like they do in the source.