BvS All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - - - Part 14

[Bathead]

Look, not to point out the bleeding obvious but the odds of their being other life in the universe are astronomically greater than there ever being someone able to produce something you would call actual 'magic'. That's just how it is.

You're talking about our universe, not the DCCU. What happened in MOS's pseudo-scientific universe is no more believable in our real life universe than any one of our own more ancient mythologies about magic and gods. Forget about real world physics. I really don't see where you get this idea that MOS has established any sort of restrictive set of rules that deny the existence of magic other than your own rather limited imagination.

 

[The Shape]

You're talking about our universe, not the DCCU. What happened in MOS's pseudo-scientific universe is no more believable in our real life universe than any one of our own more ancient mythologies about magic and gods. Forget about real world physics. I really don't see where you get this idea that MOS has established any sort of restrictive set of rules that deny the existence of magic other than your own rather limited imagination.

Exactly. Spot on. No concrete rules were established for the universe in which MOS took place, other than the fact that humans hadn't necessarily been exposed to other-worldly elements prior to the start of the film (as far as we know). Still, there could be people in that universe (STAR Labs could exist and know more, Batman could have seen more things in his time as a crime fighter, etc) who are aware of meta humans or even magic.

In IM1, there was no hint of magic existing, nor was there much of a hint during IM2. They were films built around the idea of human craftsmanship and science. Still, magic and alien life both clearly existed and were eventually shown to us in that universe. Why must this be any different? Why is MOS held to a different standard than that? Because it was more serious?

 

[roach]

I'm not gonna say it's magic…but…it's magic

 

[SilentWarriorZ]

Bring Shazam DC

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

Someone order some magic?

 

[charl_huntress]

Here are 2 more of here using her Lasso.

What are these from? They look familiar, but I can't place them.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

I think as far as movies go it's important to define the limits of magic or the supernatural/extraordinary to both the writer(s) and to the general audience.

 

[charl_huntress]

Remember this is a direct sequel, it's not a WW story, she's going to have to fit into place, the world can't just accommodate magic, it's existence has to make sense and stay within the rules of the previous film. Marvel's world has always been neutral in comparison, pretty much anything can go in that universe and little explanation given because ultimately that's the world they've created. Man of Steel has set itself up as a Sci-fi world, that's the mold you've got to build everything off of.

The Marvel guys were far too inconsistent with their construal of Thor's origin. They first endeavored to have us think he is, indeed, of divine origin, i.e., a god who is perceived by largely secular humans (in modern times) as an alien of sorts. In Avengers, he was referred to as a demigod, which would imply that one of his parents was not of divine origin (when we already know this not to be the case). In the silly S.H.I.E.L.D series that no one really watches, they sort of go back and forth between god and alien. Then in Thor: TDW, Odin claims the Asgardians are "not gods" at all -- they are just long-lived humans. Ridiculous.

WW audiences should not have to go through such nonsense.

Great explanations. This pretty much explains it for me. I just don't think magic would fit, unless it's done like Smash suggested. Though, I still don't get how you would explain "gods" in this world when there are aliens that are like gods.

 

[roach]

Great explanations. This pretty much explains it for me. I just don't think magic would fit, unless it's done like Smash suggested. Though, I still don't get how you would explain "gods" in this world when there are aliens that are like gods.

it's not that hard to explain. One of the rules of screenwriting is that the audience will believe the most outlandish things in movies as long as they appear early in the film…however I don't expect much of an explanation for Wonder Woman's abilities beyond "It's Magic"…in this film.

 

[Superman Earth1]

What are these from? They look familiar, but I can't place them.

Superman/Batman Apocalyspe

 

[Smashlilman]

What are these from? They look familiar, but I can't place them.

It's from Superman/Batman: Apocalypse.

I think as far as movies go it's important to define the limits of magic or the supernatural/extraordinary to both the writer(s) and to the general audience.

Yea that prevents magic from becoming a Deus Ex Machina that can be sued to instantly solve problem and prevents Plot holes from forming as a result of not using magic. Just think of how The One Ring Working in the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit. When you think about Frodo and Bilbo could have just worn the ring all the times and it would have solved most of the problems in the movie. The side effects that balance The One Ring are that Spiritual beings can see you more easily and person’s soul would feel all thin, sort of stretched (extreme physiological stress). That creates condition so that the character can't abuse it.

 

[Bathead]

I think as far as movies go it's important to define the limits of magic or the supernatural/extraordinary to both the writer(s) and to the general audience.

Which should also include the type of fake comic-book science such as exists in MOS.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

It would seem from some posters here that a true integrated DCCU is actually not something they want. This arbitrary, to me anyway, rule that MOS set up a magic free DCCU just sets up a fictional world where a mess of characters would at best be IN NAME ONLY pretty much. Thinking like this alters Aquaman, Zatanna, The Spectre, Raven, Felix Faust, Deadman, Dr. Fate and Wonder Woman just to name a few. I am a MARVEL fan, and despite some inconsistencies they've set up a world where ALL of their roster could appear on screen if they wish. Why would a DC fan insist on a rule that cripples or changes the nature of so many important DC heroes? I just don't get it.

 

[Mr.M]

I think WB shot itself in the foot by making a Superman film in the vein of Nolan's trilogy, envisaging this epic clash between a grounded, real world David versus the completely overpowered Goliath, while maintaining a real world backdrop and pressing the question, "How would the world really react?" To really foster a genuine reaction, you have to limit the spectacle to what's already been accepted by the masses, and that is largely contained to Superman and his Kryptonian heritage. That's ultimately not going to spawn into a DCCU, or at least not an acceptable one.

I think Marvel tried to ease audiences into Avengers by having the Hulk and Thor appear in isolated incidents. Where Hulk was a largely hidden figure from the public until his battle with Abomination. Thor was pretty much kept under wraps by SHIELD until other characters from his realm started showing up. I think WB should take a similar approach as well, but the execution must be a lot better.

 

[charl_huntress]

It's from Superman/Batman: Apocalypse.

Superman/Batman Apocalyspe

Thank you! I have to watch that again. I haven't seen it in a while.

it's not that hard to explain. One of the rules of screenwriting is that the audience will believe the most outlandish things in movies as long as they appear early in the film…however I don't expect much of an explanation for Wonder Woman's abilities beyond "It's Magic"…in this film.

I agree it can be done. I just want it to be done as Smash suggested. I don't want to see gods in the clouds or floating cities in clouds. They have to find some other way to do that that fits inside the world they have already established. Again, I'm not saying it can't be done though.

It would seem from some posters here that a true integrated DCCU is actually not something they want.

You know what? There may be some truth to this. Early on I had said a grounded world would limit how other characters were introduced because there are a lot of fantastical characters in the DC universe. This was my whole beef with grounding the world in this gritty realism to begin with. I was happy to see it done in MOS in such a way that was satisfactory, but I still feel it limits what can and can't be done...because the world is grounded in such a way that some audience members (me and others) don't expect it. The trick I see for Goyer and Synder is to introduce these elements in a way that fits into what they have already build so it doesn't feel jarring.

 

[Loki882]

If there are established rules and limits to what magic can do, then the audience will except it. The LOTR example that has been mentioned is a good one. Harry Potter is another one. There are set rules in that universe that define what magic can and cannot due. For example, magic CANNOT bring back the dead, period. The same kind of parameters could apply here. I also don't think that MOS completely closed the door on their being magic in that universe and it was not nearly as grounded as the Nolan films. Magic simply wasn't mentioned in the movie because there was no reason to, the plot didn't demand it. That doesn't mean that they can't bring it in later. Also, I FULLY support the use of Zatanna, I love her so much.

 

[redfirebird2008]

Got a feeling the story will be a mess, but I am pretty curious to see how Snyder, Cavill, and Affleck handle the Batman/Superman dynamic.

 

[charl_huntress]

I also don't think that MOS completely closed the door on their being magic in that universe and it was not nearly as grounded as the Nolan films. Magic simply wasn't mentioned in the movie because there was no reason to, the plot didn't demand it. That doesn't mean that they can't bring it in later. Also, I FULLY support the use of Zatanna, I love her so much.

I love her too...no doubt, and I agree it didn't completely close the door on anything. I guess my problem is the world feels very grounded in a sci-fi way, which in my view does not mesh well with mysticism and gods. It could also be I haven't seen this done well before. Again, not saying it can't be done. It very could be, but it will have to be done in way that isn't jarring.

 

[Loki882]

Iron Man felt pretty grounded to, just a smart guy in a suit of armor fighting terrorists and corrupt businessmen. Fast forward five years and you've got Avengers, which takes the concept of grounded and smashes it with a sledgehammer. In Phase Three, Marvel's doing Doctor Strange, which is even more out there. I see no reason why DC/WB cant do something similar. It all depends on the writing.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

I have a question for those who have a problem with the way Batman flips Superman across a table in the Bruce Timm animated movie. In light of how you feel about that, what did you make of the way Clark was sort of pushed around in MoS? I'm specifically referring to the bullies who pulled him out of his dad's truck and threw him on the ground as well as the guy who similarly pushed him to the ground (at the start of the film) to save his life. Should they have been able to move Clark so easily? Do you think he just let them?

 

[jmc]

And that's what you find more believable than magic?

Given that gravity exists, yes.

You're talking about our universe, not the DCCU. What happened in MOS's pseudo-scientific universe is no more believable in our real life universe than any one of our own more ancient mythologies about magic and gods. Forget about real world physics. I really don't see where you get this idea that MOS has established any sort of restrictive set of rules that deny the existence of magic other than your own rather limited imagination.

Ah, the ol' 'limited imagination' line is thrown up once again. How about looking at it from a film makers perspective. BTW dude, there is no DCCU. At the moment it's still just a Superman series that just happens to have Batman and Wonder Woman.

 

[charl_huntress]

Iron Man felt pretty grounded to, just a smart guy in a suit of armor fighting terrorists and corrupt businessmen. Fast forward five years and you've got Avengers, which takes the concept of grounded and smashes it with a sledgehammer. In Phase Three, Marvel's doing Doctor Strange, which is even more out there. I see no reason why DC/WB cant do something similar. It all depends on the writing.

True...but there were two movies in between IM and Thor and a lot of ground work and a big hint at the end of the one of the movies of the "magic" to come. There was no such set up in MOS. The set up will have to be done in this movie, or alluded to in some way that does not feel jarring because a floating city in the clouds is not what I'm expecting to see in a sequel to MOS or in a world set in MOS...at least not now.

 

[charl_huntress]

I have a question for those who have a problem with the way Batman flips Superman across a table in the Bruce Timm animated movie. In light of how you feel about that, what did you make of the way Clark was sort of pushed around in MoS? I'm specifically referring to the bullies who pulled him out of his dad's truck and threw him on the ground as well as the guy who similarly pushed him to the ground (at the start of the film) to save his life. Should they have been able to move Clark so easily? Do you think he just let them?

Hahaha...this is an old debate. I'm going to say yes. If I remember correctly the gun he was being shot with was a 50-cal. Someone who is better versed in physics will have to take the answer from here, but in my view yes it should move him. Damage him...no, but it should move him. As for that scene with Bats...I explained that he was daring him to put his hands on him. There's no way a human could out-reflex Superman...I don't care if he is Batman. t:

 

[Bathead]

I love her too...no doubt, and I agree it didn't completely close the door on anything. I guess my problem is the world feels very grounded in a sci-fi way, which in my view does not mesh well with mysticism and gods. It could also be I haven't seen this done well before. Again, not saying it can't be done. It very could be, but it will have to be done in way that isn't jarring.

The thing is, there are a ton of well written hard core sci-fi that deals with such things and they do it without watering the concept of mysticism down to a mundane level by explaining it away with bunch of scientific babble.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

Hahaha...this is an old debate. I'm going to say yes. If I remember correctly the gun he was being shot with was a 50-cal. Someone who is better versed in physics will have to take the answer from here, but in my view yes it should move him. Damage him...no, but it should move him. As for that scene with Bats...I explained that he was daring him to put his hands on him. There's no way a human could out-reflex Superman...I don't care if he is Batman. t:

No, not the shot to the head. I'm fine with that. Remember when young Clark was reading Plato in his dad's truck? Well, some kids just pulled him out of the truck and sort of pushed him on the floor. And at the start of the film (on the boat), a guy pushes him out of the way to save his life. Should they have been able to do that?