BvS All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - - - Part 14

[jmc]

Perhaps a thread should be made on the idea of the Amazons being Kryptonian descendants. That is the easiest solution to the the science/magic conundrum.

 

[shauner111]

Dont take their word when they say realistic. Goyer and co don't seem to know what the word means, and don't trust em' anyway because they change their minds every 3 months.

It seems like Nolan had a vision from the start to keep it grounded somewhat, at least without superpowers..and without it being a shared universe. But these guys just never had a single vision from the get-go. It's more like a "we'll throw it out there and see what sticks then roll with it. If we get another idea, then we can always say it's not realistic because there's aliens and metahumans! And if we dont want to give Wondy powers then we can say that it's because this world is more realistic!".

**** like that.

Just like the "nobody else is a superhero in this universe yet, theyre certainly not in costumes!" Now Goyer has to cover it up in the coming months, im sure.

It's all the same. They dont seem to know what the hell they're doing, they're improvising. And that's actually OK. It could work out. But there's going to be a lot of contradictions to go with it.

Cavill always talking about how the universe is realistic makes me roll my eyes though. By the end of MOS, you're like scratching your head going "This is just as unrealistic as watching the Avengers."

 

[TheBat812]

I found the character decisions and journeys to be very realistic and relatable in a way similar to tdkt. I also found the way they handled it to be fairly plausible as a first encounter story in terms of everybody's reactions, amount of damage etc. it's obviously still a movie but I certainly think they've succeeded so far in terms of grounding the film. Which is why I'm very curious to know where they're goin to go in the sequel.

 

[MrsKent26]

Same here.

I do think the movie established fairly well there is a large universe out there via the easter eggs and the fact the scout ship was here before Superman ever arrived. Plus if the prequel comics are included then Thanagarians are mentioned, so we know there are other alien races.

In my view, there could be other "beings" here on earth with powers like "magic". That seems plausible. However, I still think they will have to tie Wondy's magic and the "science" together to explain her presence her because as it stands it would not fit.

Yeah, I think so too. I just can't picture WW being introduced without any alterations.

Perhaps a thread should be made on the idea of the Amazons being Kryptonian descendants. That is the easiest solution to the the science/magic conundrum.

But I have to admit an alteration this dramatic makes me go "Whoa." But I am trying to be more open minded...

Dont take their word when they say realistic. Goyer and co don't seem to know what the word means, and don't trust em' anyway because they change their minds every 3 months.

It seems like Nolan had a vision from the start to keep it grounded somewhat, at least without superpowers..and without it being a shared universe. But these guys just never had a single vision from the get-go. It's more like a "we'll throw it out there and see what sticks then roll with it. If we get another idea, then we can always say it's not realistic because there's aliens and metahumans! And if we dont want to give Wondy powers then we can say that it's because this world is more realistic!".

**** like that.

Just like the "nobody else is a superhero in this universe yet, theyre certainly not in costumes!" Now Goyer has to cover it up in the coming months, im sure.

It's all the same. They dont seem to know what the hell they're doing, they're improvising. And that's actually OK. It could work out. But there's going to be a lot of contradictions to go with it.

Cavill always talking about how the universe is realistic makes me roll my eyes though. By the end of MOS, you're like scratching your head going "This is just as unrealistic as watching the Avengers."

I find it annoying trying to keep up with it all. I know I should stop trying and just go with it, but it's hard without seeing how it will all come out.

 

[The Shape]

Because Mos Steel itself held itself to a different standard. Yes, because it took itself seriously, to even compare it the tone and feel of Iron Man is absurd. It would be like introducing wizards into The Terminator series which no-one would buy into. The only reason people are willing to be lenient is because of what's happened in past mediums regarding these characters. The excuse basically comes down to 'well it's happened before in other mediums', but this isn't some generic world where you can plonk in any type of character, it's been designed in a specific way and characters have to fit the world.

Sorry, but I think you're way off the mark here.

The light-hearted tone of the first Iron Man film (which admittedly deals with a semi-realistic plot that involves Middle Eastern terrorists and weapons manufacturing) is mostly due to witty banter from Tony Stark throughout the film and moments of comic relief. It's about a human being who creates a mechanical, weaponized suit. The second film follows a similar trajectory, but with the addition of the main character stumbling upon a new element which was missing from the periodic table. And yet, you have accepted magical elements in that universe and have shown no objections towards the presence of magic or aliens in the Marvel films.

Man of Steel, meanwhile, opens with an extended sequence that takes place on another planet all together. We see majestic, Avatar-like creatures and advanced alien spaceships/technology throughout the film, including Jor El's very consciousness inserted into a ship's computer program to communicate with living characters. A codex of this planet's race was absorbed into our main character's body as a baby. The aliens hack into every television on Earth to send the humans a message. And yet, because of the film's more serious overall tone, you won't accept anything more fantastical than those things in these DC films? You believe that Man of Steel somehow established this unspoken rule that something like magic or Greek mythology is "too ridiculous" or too unbelievable for a universe which literally contains a Super-Man who can crush 18-wheelers with his bare hands?

That logic just does not make sense. That'd be like complaining that the ability to create dreams and hack into people's subconscious in Inception is "too much of a reach" or "too hard for people to accept" because the movie generally took itself seriously and wasn't that funny. When we're talking about films like this, real-world logic doesn't necessarily come into play unless the film demands it to. Man of Steel didn't demand anything like that of us, despite its somber tone. Quite the opposite, actually. MOS basically told us that we are not alone in the universe, and that there are other, more powerful beings in existence than we could have ever previously imagined. How can that only be limited to one alien race from one dead planet?

This DC film universe hasn't even begun to scratch the surface of what does/does not exist. That's for the filmmakers to tell us as these films progress. Of course, if you limit your own mind as to what YOU think these films should do, you might not enjoy the ride as much as the rest of us will.

 

[Wise]

The reason I want magic and pseudo science in the DCAU is so that we finally get proper iterations of the freak Bat villains like Ra's Al Ghul, Clayface, Killer Croc and Poison Ivy.

The Arkham games have proved that the freaks can work in a gritty realistic environment. It's not live action, but it's a good blueprint.

I want to see Batfleck dealing with Lazarus pits, freeze guns and venom steroids.

 

[The Shape]

Perhaps a thread should be made on the idea of the Amazons being Kryptonian descendants. That is the easiest solution to the the science/magic conundrum.

Uhhh...no. And I don't think these films need to take the "easy way out", in any sense.

 

[jmc]

But I have to admit an alteration this dramatic makes me go "Whoa." But I am trying to be more open minded...

Is it really that dramatic? All you're really doing is substituting the Greek Gods for Kryptonians. Everything else remains the same and now has a plausible explanation. Imagine early Kryptonians landed in ancient times and were responsible for the creation of the Amazons, I mean they know how to genetically engineer people, they pass on their technology which would explain the invisible jet, use a variation of Phantom Zone physics to make Paradise Island 'invisible', everything else kinda stays the same except the Greek gods being real.

 

[Jake Cassidy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8Q0bMuvBME

 

[The Shape]

I think the one thing that people can seemingly agree on is that, based on what MOS established, there had been no confirmed reports of people with extraordinary powers roaming around the Earth as far as the public was aware of.

To be fair, though, we never had the chance to hear rumblings of any other "special" beings. Perry White expressed that the world would be shocked to hear of the confirmation of extraterrestrial life. Of course that would be a shock. That doesn't mean that, prior to MOS, there weren't rumors/rumblings/myths floating around in terms of unusual activity around Earth itself. Also, an organization like S.T.A.R. Labs could exists and could be withholding information about such things.

MOS was a self-contained story that didn't necessarily allow itself to explore things like that. Thankfully, that's what these next films can do.

 

[Wise]

Perhaps a thread should be made on the idea of the Amazons being Kryptonian descendants. That is the easiest solution to the the science/magic conundrum.

If they decide to do that we might as well kiss goodbye to the thought of seeing proper iterations of Aquaman, Zatanna, Shazam, Hawkman or any mythological or magical based hero.

I think Snyder and Affleck both have too much respect for the source material to do something so boneheaded.

 

[MrsKent26]

Is it really that dramatic? All you're really doing is substituting the Greek Gods for Kryptonians. Everything else remains the same and now has a plausible explanation. Imagine early Kryptonians landed in ancient times and were responsible for the creation of the Amazons, I mean they know how to genetically engineer people, they pass on their technology which would explain the invisible jet, use a variation of Phantom Zone physics to make Paradise Island 'invisible', everything else kinda stays the same except the Greek gods being real.

Well, when explained that way, I think I might be able to handle that. But I am in no way a "purist" when it comes to comic characters being translated exactly as they are in those comics into movies.

While I may be able to handle that, I think many would resist it. Remember the uproar about Superman's briefs being removed from his costume? Snyder and Goyer might not have the balls to do something like that with WW. Although they were the people that had Superman break a dude's neck, so who knows.

 

[Charlatan]

Dont take their word when they say realistic. Goyer and co don't seem to know what the word means, and don't trust em' anyway because they change their minds every 3 months.

It seems like Nolan had a vision from the start to keep it grounded somewhat, at least without superpowers..and without it being a shared universe. But these guys just never had a single vision from the get-go. It's more like a "we'll throw it out there and see what sticks then roll with it. If we get another idea, then we can always say it's not realistic because there's aliens and metahumans! And if we dont want to give Wondy powers then we can say that it's because this world is more realistic!".

**** like that.

Just like the "nobody else is a superhero in this universe yet, theyre certainly not in costumes!" Now Goyer has to cover it up in the coming months, im sure.

It's all the same. They dont seem to know what the hell they're doing, they're improvising. And that's actually OK. It could work out. But there's going to be a lot of contradictions to go with it.

Cavill always talking about how the universe is realistic makes me roll my eyes though. By the end of MOS, you're like scratching your head going "This is just as unrealistic as watching the Avengers."

I think the theme will be that Superman becoming public gives the others the "cover" to come out of the shadows so to speak.
Bats has been around for a while but still has "urban legend" status.
Maybe something happens to Supes that forces them out in the open to help him? My feeling is that Bruce and possibly Diana are curious and concerned about Clark. Not sure that he will use his powers in a way they feel is appropriate and that's why they come to "check him out" and get an idea where his heart is. While also taking measure of his weaknesses and vulnerabilities "just in case".
And once they do come to the conclusion he's a good guy then something bad happens to him and they must pull together to help him. I wouldn't be at all surprised if this movie ended up a cliffhanger.

 

[roach]

Perhaps a thread should be made on the idea of the Amazons being Kryptonian descendants. That is the easiest solution to the the science/magic conundrum.

Seems lazy to me…and it dilutes what makes Wonder Woman special.

 

[charl_huntress]

Perhaps a thread should be made on the idea of the Amazons being Kryptonian descendants. That is the easiest solution to the the science/magic conundrum.

I can only speak for myself, but I wouldn't like this. If they do Wondy's origins then Themyscira, Olympus and all that has to exist on some separate plane and they need to be "separate" in someway which requires little to no explanation for how her powers work in MOS.

The reason I want magic and pseudo science in the DCAU is so that we finally get proper iterations of the freak Bat villains like Ra's Al Ghul, Clayface, Killer Croc and Poison Ivy. The Arkham games have proved that the freaks can work in a gritty realistic environment. It's not live action, but it's a good blueprint. I want to see Batfleck dealing with Lazarus pits, freeze guns and venom steroids.

Would you be opposed to them if some were created by Kryptonian technology like on SV?

 

[The Shape]

Would you be opposed to them if some were created by Kryptonian technology like on SV?

I certainly would be. That's not building a DC universe, it's building a falsified, extended Superman mythos.

 

[roach]

I can only speak for myself, but I wouldn't like this. If they do Wondy's origins then Themyscira, Olympus and all that has to exist on some separate plane and they need to be "separate" in someway which requires little to no explanation for how her powers work in MOS.Would you be opposed to them if some were created by Kryptonian technology like on SV?

We know there maybe other magic characters introduced and I would hate for their to be story gymnastics when it comes time to intro'ing Shazam, Dr Fate and other magic beings…

I would hate that kryptonian tech is responsible for other characters…it limits the universe.

 

[Wise]

I certainly would be. That's not building a DC universe, it's building a falsified, extended Superman mythos.

Pretty much this.

 

[MrsKent26]

Seems lazy to me…and it dilutes what makes Wonder Woman special.

Is lazy really the right word? Perhaps it's just not your preference.

We know there maybe other magic characters introduced and I would hate for their to be story gymnastics when it comes time to intro'ing Shazam, Dr Fate and other magic beings…

I would hate that kryptonian tech is responsible for other characters…it limits the universe.

I doubt they're going to develop every obscure DC character. Not in substantial roles at least. They'll probably stick to the well-known money-makers.

 

[charl_huntress]

We know there maybe other magic characters introduced and I would hate for their to be story gymnastics when it comes time to intro'ing Shazam, Dr Fate and other magic beings…

I do understand that, but I don't think there will need to be Olympic level gymnastics to include them without including "magic" in its traditional form.

I certainly would be. That's not building a DC universe, it's building a falsified, extended Superman mythos.

Okay...I was curious as that would be an easy route to go. I'm not familiar with all of Bats rogues. Aside from Ra's who else in that gallery really deals with magic?

 

[roach]

I do understand that, but I don't think there will need to be Olympic level gymnastics to include them without including "magic" in its traditional form.

If we say there is no magic then how does Billy Batson learn a 'special' word that allows him to transform into a Shazam?
Dr. Fate is a sorcerer…with no magic it seems pointless.

 

[jmc]

Sorry, but I think you're way off the mark here.

The light-hearted tone of the first Iron Man film (which admittedly deals with a semi-realistic plot that involves Middle Eastern terrorists and weapons manufacturing) is mostly due to witty banter from Tony Stark throughout the film and moments of comic relief. It's about a human being who creates a mechanical, weaponized suit. The second film follows a similar trajectory, but with the addition of the main character stumbling upon a new element which was missing from the periodic table. And yet, you have accepted magical elements in that universe and have shown no objections towards the presence of magic or aliens in the Marvel films.

Man of Steel, meanwhile, opens with an extended sequence that takes place on another planet all together. We see majestic, Avatar-like creatures and advanced alien spaceships/technology throughout the film, including Jor El's very consciousness inserted into a ship's computer program to communicate with living characters. A codex of this planet's race was absorbed into our main character's body as a baby. The aliens hack into every television on Earth to send the humans a message. And yet, because of the film's more serious overall tone, you won't accept anything more fantastical than those things in these DC films? You believe that Man of Steel somehow established this unspoken rule that something like magic or Greek mythology is "too ridiculous" or too unbelievable for a universe which literally contains a Super-Man who can crush 18-wheelers with his bare hands?

That logic just does not make sense. That'd be like complaining that the ability to create dreams and hack into people's subconscious in Inception is "too much of a reach" or "too hard for people to accept" because the movie generally took itself seriously and wasn't that funny. When we're talking about films like this, real-world logic doesn't necessarily come into play unless the film demands it to. Man of Steel didn't demand anything like that of us, despite its somber tone. Quite the opposite, actually. MOS basically told us that we are not alone in the universe, and that there are other, more powerful beings in existence than we could have ever previously imagined. How can that only be limited to one alien race from one dead planet?

This DC film universe hasn't even begun to scratch the surface of what does/does not exist. That's for the filmmakers to tell us as these films progress. Of course, if you limit your own mind as to what YOU think these films should do, you might not enjoy the ride as much as the rest of us will.

Mate, I'm not limiting myself, I'm following the rules set up by the first movie. That's how I think. It's not limiting, it's about cohesiveness, it's about consistency, it's about looking at things as if we are working with a clean slate not past creations. I'm not saying characters like WW or Aquaman can't work, I'm saying they have to work in context of how the movie before it was made.

The problem is I believe some people are looking at the DC situation from the perspective of what Marvel did. Marvel's situation is different, they had 4 different characters each with their own film, all with a similar tones but different enough to still be unique, all loosely connected at best (IM2 of course the exception). They are very much individual movies not extensions or follow ups to one and other, if you look at it objectively you can easily say they weren't genuinely part of a shared universe until Avengers came around. But even those loose connections were troublesome because there was no (or few) set rules to follow, Whedon said he had difficulty trying to work out how to get these characters together because they shouldn't fit. He solved the problem by just making it a massive Superhero party and having fun with the concept because ultimately all he could really do was make it a stand alone movie. Avengers is unique in that it's connected to the other films but is not a sequel to any of those other movies, it's just a combination of different characters who's stories in their respective earlier films play little to no part in the events of Avengers.

Man of Steel 2 is different, it's not the combination of several franchises, it's an extension of an existing franchise, it's a direct follow up to the previous movie (a movie that took it self too seriously IMO). You can't just start throwing in anything and everything, you've got to follow what came before because it's a sequel, if you're adding characters they have to work in that context. Truth be told MoS2 is actually in a better position to make a far more cohesive and consistent expanded universe, if Marvel's movie have one issue it's consistency in their universe, especially for Thor whereby his status as to what type of being his is has never been truly defined. I'm not saying fantastical things can't happen, they just have to work within the frame of MoS. MoS2 is probably not going to be the big fun party that Avengers was, by all reports it's still going to be a Superman movie, it just happens to have 2 other DC characters involved. 'Magic' in some form may very well happen, but it may not be the way many expect or even want.

 

[charl_huntress]

If we say there is no magic then how does Billy Batson learn a 'special' word that allows him to transform into a Shazam?
Dr. Fate is a sorcerer…with no magic it seems pointless.

It's impossible to have the answers for these without knowing what elements will be added in this upcoming movie, but it's not impossible to do them without the traditional magic elements. There would be alterations...yes, but the spirit would still be the same.

 

[jmc]

Seems lazy to me…and it dilutes what makes Wonder Woman special.

I don't particularly care for the idea especially if it were for a solo film, but I cannot argue the idea doesn't make sense or work in context. It's not lazy to do the logical thing.

 

[Jekecy]

Double post.