BvS All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 33

[Mysteryman]

Just rewatched Superman the Movie. What a classic....

It made me realize how much MOS pales in comparison to STM as far as the Superman origin story goes. Clark's origin is just handled a lot better imo. I enjoyed the action sequences in MOS a lot more than the action sequences in STM, but still STM is a superior film.

The way Jonathan died in the original was infinitely more emotionally resonant, and the scenes with young Clark are done way better.

There are so many classic and timeless moments in STM, MOS feels hollow in comparison. STM had so much heart and soul. It leaves you feeling warm when you watch it. Maybe it's just nostalgia speaking for me...

i loved MOS, but it didn't reach its full potential. Combine the story of STM with the action/special effects level of MOS and thats a perfect Superman movie.

I Love them both.

 

[BH/HHH]

Just rewatched Superman the Movie. What a classic....

It made me realize how much MOS pales in comparison to STM as far as the Superman origin story goes. Clark's origin is just handled a lot better imo. I enjoyed the action sequences in MOS a lot more than the action sequences in STM, but still STM is a superior film.

The way Jonathan died in the original was infinitely more emotionally resonant, and the scenes with young Clark are done way better.

There are so many classic and timeless moments in STM, MOS feels hollow in comparison. STM had so much heart and soul. It leaves you feeling warm when you watch it. Maybe it's just nostalgia speaking for me...

i loved MOS, but it didn't reach its full potential. Combine the story of STM with the action/special effects level of MOS and thats a perfect Superman movie.

I absolutely love both of those films, Man of Steel for me though is just better but that doesn't mean I love STM any less. If MOS proved anything its that you can really combine the plots of the first two into one film. Something they could have done back in 1978 when you think about it. MOS isn't perfect either mind but for me its almost perfect.

I don't think simply sorting STMs effects would make it perfect. There is still that turning back time ending to deal with and simply having him stop the rockets doesn't fix it either as then you have no tension or drama. If STM had a better ending I do think it most probably would still be the greatest of all time.

In the FX I always wished they Lucas this film and tidy up the FX abit. But that's probably never gonna happen.

 

[BatLobster]

The division will be probably be at its most heated and intense in 2016. It happens with every reboot, especially when it comes so soon after the previous version. Burton fans vs. Nolan fans in 2005. Raimi fans vs Webb fans in 2012. With a few sensible people in the middle trying to argue that it's okay to like both versions.

But it'll eventually pass too, as TDKT moves further and further into the past and takes its rightful place on the nostalgia shelf for a lot of people. Then everyone will move on to debating the merits and flaws of the new version.

Spoiler

 

[X Knight]

I do think STM handled Jonathan's death better than in MOS.

However, that being said, I enjoyed MOS way more than STM.

 

[BH/HHH]

I do think STM handled Jonathan's death better than in MOS.

However, that being said, I enjoyed MOS way more than STM.

I'd agree with that, the JK death is what stops me giving MOS a 10/10 and its not that him dying in a tornado bothers me but I think it could have been done a little better than Clark watching him die.

I've said this often about STM...but it still impresses me how in just a few minutes of screentime, and two narrative days of his teen years, they were able to encapsulate his entire childhood and adolescence. We felt as though we grew up with him...saw his frustration and isolation, but also the comfort and morality he got from his parents. We didn't feel like we missed a beat of his 16-17 years of life. It illustrates an aspect of good writing that we seem to see less often, which is efficiency. I still see the first third of Superman as the gold standard of hero origins in movies.

Its a truly amazing film, nothing I've ever seen has captured the same magic. It says alot that 36 years later it's still loved as much as it is.

 

[X Knight]

I'd agree with that, the JK death is what stops me giving MOS a 10/10 and its not that him dying in a tornado bothers me but I think it could have been done a little better than Clark watching him die.



Its a truly amazing film, nothing I've ever seen has captured the same magic. It says alot that 36 years later it's still loved as much as it is.

agreed.

They could have had both Jonathan AND Clark out there rescuing people in the tornado. Or have Clark go out and rescue people with Jonathan staying behind with Martha.

Then, while Clark is rescuing some people, he super hears/sees Jonathan having a heart attack. But, he doesn't have time to go to him or else he'd reveal his powers.

 

[Kevin Smith]

I absolutely love both of those films, Man of Steel for me though is just better but that doesn't mean I love STM any less. If MOS proved anything its that you can really combine the plots of the first two into one film. Something they could have done back in 1978 when you think about it. MOS isn't perfect either mind but for me its almost perfect.

I don't think simply sorting STMs effects would make it perfect. There is still that turning back time ending to deal with and simply having him stop the rockets doesn't fix it either as then you have no tension or drama. If STM had a better ending I do think it most probably would still be the greatest of all time.

In the FX I always wished they Lucas this film and tidy up the FX abit. But that's probably never gonna happen.

I agree with everything Rorschach just said about Superman: The Movie and MOS, but the whole spin around the world turn back time bit, while it may not make sense in real life, it makes perfect sense emotionally and that's why it works in the movie. Plus, if you just let go of "well how would this work?", it really is an awesome scene, I always thought it was really cool, one of my favorite moments in a superhero movie - simply fantastic. And then the follow up/epilogue to it is great.

Except for the Jesus analogy stuff, they really get Superman right in that movie. Combine the story of that and special FX of MOS and you have a perfect Superman movie (and, truthfully, some of the 70s special effects in that film hold up really well). I remember being excited when I saw the MOS trailer 3 (still waiting on that movie) when I saw the shot of Superman flying over the dessert and how it reminded me of the missile chase scene from Superman: The Movie, I thought "what must he be doing at that part? I hope it's some intense bit that pertains to the story, like some chase, and him running out of time" or something like that...maybe chasing Zod over the canyons... that would have been great...

 

[BH/HHH]

[YT]http://youtu.be/DXAva_gO8Qk[/YT]

Well cute

 

[BH/HHH]

I agree with everything Rorschach just said about Superman: The Movie and MOS, but the whole spin around the world turn back time bit, while it may not make sense in real life, it makes perfect sense emotionally and that's why it works in the movie. Plus, if you just let go of "well how would this work?", it really is an awesome scene, I always thought it was really cool, one of my favorite moments in a superhero movie - simply fantastic. And then the follow up/epilogue to it is great.

Except for the Jesus analogy stuff, they really get Superman right in that movie. Combine the story of that and special FX of MOS and you have a perfect Superman movie (and, truthfully, some of the 70s special effects in that film hold up really well). I remember being excited when I saw the MOS trailer 3 (still waiting on that movie) when I saw the shot of Superman flying over the dessert and how it reminded me of the missile chase scene from Superman: The Movie, I thought "what must he be doing at that part? I hope it's some intense bit that pertains to the story, like some chase, and him running out of time" or something like that...maybe chasing Zod over the canyons... that would have been great...

Agree to disagree on the turning world back. Automatically it creates problems, Superman is suddenly more powerful than he even knew and now anytime something goes wring he could simply go back in tine and put it right. Now don't get me wrong its fine when I watch the film but for the series its a major problem.

Updating the FX (that as you say and I agree some of stand up still today) of STM would definitely make it even better but I still think MOSs problems aren't as bad as that ending of STM which for me knocks a full point off STM.

 

[BatLobster]

Yeah, I agree. The turning the world back thing is the ultimate dues ex machina.

I know the history of why it ended up being that way in the film, and I'm a fan of Donner's Superman, but that's just something I can't get past. The primal rage on Superman's face is great though.

 

[Kevin Smith]

Yeah, the 'world turning' part really was more of an emotional climax than a 'sensible' one, so to speak. Almost allegorical....gotta ask yourself, "would you turn back time to save the person you loved?". He would, and he could.

Exactly, it worked on an emotional level and is therefore valid to me because of how strong it was.

 

[Rorschach2012]

Someone said the first third of STM is the golden standard for Superhero origin stories and i agree with that. Actually more like the first half.

Also like someone else said, STM could've probably been combined with Superman 2. That's basically what we got in MOS. But if you were take the best parts from both Superman 1 and 2 and you combined them to make one cohesive narrative, i think that'd be a better movie than MOS.

This isn't an attack on MOS. I love MOS, i've watched it probably 10 times. I just wish the character interactions/story would've had some more heart to it, like STM. MOS left me wanting more. And Cavill makes SUCH a good Superman. He's got his own take on it, but there is definitely a LOT of Reeve influence in his performance. I can't wait to see how he handles the Clark Kent persona.

 

[BH/HHH]

Yeah, the 'world turning' part really was more of an emotional climax than a 'sensible' one, so to speak. Almost allegorical....gotta ask yourself, "would you turn back time to save the person you loved?". He would, and he could.

But as
I said look at the problems it creates. He could just do that anytime something bad happens and the question it then leaves is why didn't he? Its funny cause had the internet existed then I think there'd have been as much an uproar about the implications of this much like there has been with Superman offing Zod. Afterall Jor El says he is forbidden to interfere with human history but he does and then nothing happens as a result. Much like some felt after Superman killed Zod.

 

[BH/HHH]

Yeah, I agree. The turning the world back thing is the ultimate dues ex machina.

I know the history of why it ended up being that way in the film, and I'm a fan of Donner's Superman, but that's just something I can't get past. The primal rage on Superman's face is great though.

That is very cool and Reeve is amazing in that scene.

Also like someone else said, STM could've probably been combined with Superman 2. That's basically what we got in MOS. But if you were take the best parts from both Superman 1 and 2 and you combined them to make one cohesive narrative, i think that'd be a better movie than MOS.

That could potentially be correct but it would also have to encounter Superman IIs problems and we really don't want to get into that now do we? Lol

 

[Kevin Smith]

Someone said the first third of STM is the golden standard for Superhero origin stories and i agree with that. Actually more like the first half.

Also like someone else said, STM could've probably been combined with Superman 2. That's basically what we got in MOS. But if you were take the best parts from both Superman 1 and 2 and you combined them to make one cohesive narrative, i think that'd be a better movie than MOS.

This isn't an attack on MOS. I love MOS, i've watched it probably 10 times. I just wish the character interactions/story would've had some more heart to it, like STM. MOS left me wanting more. And Cavill makes SUCH a good Superman. He's got his own take on it, but there is definitely a LOT of Reeve influence in his performance. I can't wait to see how he handles the Clark Kent persona.

All of this.

And it's funny, because MOS is a similar story to S:TM in some ways, some people say it's like the first two movies combined, but S:TM and Superman II were actually conceived as one big script and all being part of the same movie at first... so the intent was there if you think about it, to have Superman face Lex and then super powered menaces, and really, they did a great job with most of it, IMO...

 

[Kevin Smith]

Little moments like Superman leaving Lois after the Metropolis flight (which I love except for the voice over part where we hear what Lois is thinking....that was just too much for me...a little self indulgent, IMO, I'd have cut that out - other than that I liked the sequence a lot), and then someone knocking at her door almost immediately afterward and it's Clark lol. Great moments like that make the movie for me.

That being said, my biggest gripe with it after the Jesus analogy stuff and Lois monologue bit is when he jumps out the Daily Planet window as Clark Kent to go face Luthor and how his costume "magically" appears on him....it was real cheap and I never got why they did that...I guess they didn't want to break the scene with having him go back to change first, but I think it could've still worked that way....eh well. Even so, the good far outweighs the bad in that movie, and all of the dialog and characterizations are great , and that is why the movie still holds up as well as it does.

Not to mention....the awesome, AWESOME, timeless John Williams soundtrack. Man if we could still get music like that in movies today....

 

[Kevin Smith]

I always have a lot of fun whenever I watch Superman: The Movie. It's a spectacle, it's mythic, it's inspiring, and it's got a great heart to it, and it's exciting.

(It's everything any Superman movie should strive for as far as quality goes)

 

[Tra-El]

Man of Steel joyless? Not from this babies perspective! (Must watch Superman/MOS fans!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXAva_gO8Qk

 

[BH/HHH]

Man of Steel joyless? Not from this babies perspective! (Must watch Superman/MOS fans!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXAva_gO8Qk

Beat ya to it

 

[BH/HHH]

True, but I felt that especially at the time, it was emotionally satisfying enough of a spectacle that the logistical (and even moral) implications it raised were generally chalked up to 'artistic license'. And because it was 'forbidden', it was that much more of an exception made for one person...the idea of someone giving it all up for love. I you feel that you'd have done the same if you cold, you can let a lot more go.

Its definitely satisfying as a an ending to a film but its the lasting impact of it.

 

[BatLobster]

Man of Steel joyless? Not from this babies perspective! (Must watch Superman/MOS fans!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXAva_gO8Qk

Haha! That is really cute.

Maybe it's us boring adults who are the "joyless" ones and not the movie itself.

 

[Tra-El]

Beat ya to it

BAH! Sorry BH! Looking back a page or 2, your post must be the one where I got a blank white picture? Not sure if it was working for anyone else but nonetheless, it's too good not to post twice I supposet:

 

[Kevin Smith]

I always felt like Superman could only do the time travel/spin around the world trick once...that it wasn't something he could do all of the time, that that one moment was an exception... always reasoned it was that way for whatever reason when I was a kid.

I liked to that that scene echoed back to Jonathan's death and how Clark felt about it without drawing it out and making it the crux of the movie...it was great and subtle that they touched on it briefly, that Clark still had those feelings there about Jonathan's death, but it looked like the feelings of a mature man rather than something that's drawn out and superfluous to the narrative of the film.

 

[Kevin Smith]

And y'know...it's probably good to 'challenge' altruism when it comes to Superman. Maybe not in the way he killed Zod in MOS...but even though turning back time was the feat of a super being, it was a purely human thing to do. And something that could very well cost him somehow down the line...but he did it for love and he has to take ownership of that.

Giving up being Superman for a roll in the hay in the next film, though......well.....

Yeah I was never too keen on that....in fact much of two is...sub par to the original, IMO. My favorite scene remains the diner scene at the end.

Although I liked Chris Reeve's Clark Kent in the movie, I prefer the Superman: The Animated Series portrayal...where Clark is more of an actual respectable guy, just slightly mild mannered.. and less of a caricature like in the Reeve film...although I laugh very much at all the Chris Reeve Clark Kent stuff in the movies...

 

[fake]

I just realized how lucky we fans are. It may take an extra 10 months, but we are going to see Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman sharing screen time. If rumors are true, then a year or so after that, we may finally see the entire Justice League on screen.

Yesterday, someone on a different forum linked a tweet from "Vampire Academy Fans" basically begging other fandoms to go watch the movie so that they can get a sequel and see their favorite characters who won't be introduced till book 2 or book 3 on screen. Similar things are seen from Beautiful Creatures and Mortal Instruments fans on twitter after some searching. These fandoms are basically grasping at straws hoping that they get a sequel despite the first movies underperforming or downright flopping.

Makes me happy that we are living in a golden age of comic book movies.