BvS All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 33

[MrsKent26]

I wasn't a big fan of JL War.


Also, bring on the bat suit.

 

[craigdbfan]

Neither was I.

 

[MrsKent26]

^ what didn't you like about it?

 

[J.Howlett]

I've often gotten the sense there's a love hate relationship with some people towards Nolan's Batman. One the one hand they know they can't criticise the films for being bad or being a bad version of the Batman mythology, it's just for some lacking the fantasy element the encompasses the DC universe. It's not going to surprise me in the least if the next Batman is far more celebrated amongst fans even if he turns out to be an inferior version of the character simply because he's in a world that has aliens.

Bingo. Saving this post for summer 2016 when the criticisms of Nolan's trilogy pop up in record number.

This. Completely.

 

[craigdbfan]

^ what didn't you like about it?

I found the movie to be entertaining but there were certain aspects that didn't sit well with me.

Didn't like the whole mini crush subplot between Superman and Wonder Woman in Justice League: War. The romance aspect between those two always comes off as purely superficial and sexual which shouldn't be the case. Wonder Woman was aloof and Superman came across as completely ego inflated and both of them being horny for each other just didn't work.

Batman felt meek and noticeably more vulnerable despite his display of intelligence. He was just kind of there but without ever really feeling truly important when it came to the development of the group. I really liked his voice actor in fact I enjoyed all of them. Green Lantern's writing was pretty witty and comedic which I liked.

Victor's arc was nice and as tiny of a role Captain Marvel had I still enjoyed his presence.

Again it's not a bad movie but it's not the best of the animated movies as of late. Maybe the comic arc that it's based on isn't as strong but I found Paradox to but be infinitely better than this.

Entertaining but lacking in depth. This is actually exactly what I hope Batman vs Superman/Justice League doesn't end up turning into. Oh and what the heck happened to Steve Blum's voice? In the trailer it was noticeably him but it looks like at the last minute they changed their minds and completely deepened his voice beyond recognition.

 

[DA_Champion]

I found the movie to be entertaining but there were certain aspects that didn't sit well with me.

Didn't like the whole mini crush subplot between Superman and Wonder Woman in Justice League: War. The romance aspect between those two always comes off as purely superficial and sexual which shouldn't be the case. Wonder Woman was aloof and Superman came across as completely ego inflated and both of them being horny for each other just didn't work.

Batman felt meek and noticeably more vulnerable despite his display of intelligence. He was just kind of there but without ever really feeling truly important when it came to the development of the group. I really liked his voice actor in fact I enjoyed all of them. Green Lantern's writing was pretty witty and comedic which I liked.

Victor's arc was nice and as tiny of a role Captain Marvel had I still enjoyed his presence.

Again it's not a bad movie but it's not the best of the animated movies as of late. Maybe the comic arc that it's based on isn't as strong but I found Paradox to but be infinitely better than this.

Entertaining but lacking in depth. This is actually exactly what I hope Batman vs Superman/Justice League doesn't end up turning into. Oh and what the heck happened to Steve Blum's voice? In the trailer it was noticeably him but it looks like at the last minute they changed their minds and completely deepened his voice beyond recognition.

Really high standards to apply to the DCAU.

Compared to Public Enemies, Emerald Knights, and Justice League Unlimited, I'm finding this to be a masterpiece.

 

[Doc Ock]

I adore the DCAU releases, unfortunately it's the only DC films I'm REALLY enjoying right now. Ever since The Dark Knight I've enjoyed every DCAU release so much more than the live-action films. I loved Superman: Unbound over Man of Steel and I think I will feel the same with Batman vs Superman and whatever else is releasing that year from DCAU unfortunately. For me DC animated movies are gold while Marvel live-action films are gold. DC live-action post Batman Begins and Marvel animated movies are okay, I enjoy them but not as much as their opposite counterparts as in I'm okay with missing it on DVD/Blu-Ray for a while. For Marvel live-action and DC animation though I gotta have it day one.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Unbound, which I own on Blu, is serviceable to me, but does not stick out. Though I do wish the Unbound designs had been used for SUPERMAN VS THE ELITE. The art style of that film is what puts so many off. It was an odd choice for such a close animated adaptation of comic material.

 

[Doc Ock]

Unbound, which I own on Blu, is serviceable to me, but does not stick out. Though I do wish the Unbound designs had been used for SUPERMAN VS THE ELITE. The art style of that film is what puts so many off. It was an odd choice for such a close animated adaptation of comic material.

I was kinda disappointed with the art style in Unbound at first because I wanted the Reeves designed Superman like the comic but i loved it in the end and yeah the Elite is a great story but the animation is very off-putting at first.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

There are some amazing moments in ELITE and I really love it. But it pains me to hear people dismiss it so easily because it visually was not what they were comfortable with. Man could you imagine ELITE animated the way FLASHPOINT was?

 

[Doc Ock]

There are some amazing moments in ELITE and I really love it. But it pains me to hear people dismiss it so easily because it visually was not what they were comfortable with. Man could you imagine ELITE animated the way FLASHPOINT was?

Well Flashpoint had the big scary lips didn't it?

 

[DA_Champion]

I liked the art style in Superman vs The Elite. I also liked the movie except for the last 5 minutes, I found the conflict resolution in that movie to be a cheat.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I liked the art style in Superman vs The Elite. I also liked the movie except for the last 5 minutes, I found the conflict resolution in that movie to be a cheat.

I understand where you are coming from. But, and as a huge fan and defender of MOS this will come across as hypocritical, but I think that is the nature of the character and his stories. I totally can appreciate something different done with care (say, MOS) however all of these characters, for me, are actually not AS flexible as many fans and writers truly understand. They really represent irrational absolutes in many ways for fans. They are inspirational but not totally rational, which I think is not something that occurs to many fans who continually think to themselves "what if this character were in the real world?" I mean even Nolan gave Batman a BS third option in the supposed "realistic" THE DARK KNIGHT. But that's just one fan's opinion.

PS I also accept MOS' resolution to the conflict because I have no problem with the idea that the events of the film and Superman's reaction to them are the basis for a code of non killing. Other's can argue til they are blue in the face to me but that's how I see it and for me that works just fine.

 

[DA_Champion]

I mean the way he defeated the elite at the end, it was not earned. For the whole movie the elite is beating him up, and all of a sudden superman can take them. It was a cheat.

They also failed to uphold the do not kill rule in a legitimate manner. Superman uses lobotomy as an alternative --- ummm, whatever. I'm sure Kant and Plato would be impressed ... or not.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I mean the way he defeated the elite at the end, it was not earned. For the whole movie the elite is beating him up, and all of a sudden superman can take them. It was a cheat.

They also failed to uphold the do not kill rule in a legitimate manner. Superman uses lobotomy as an alternative --- ummm, whatever. I'm sure Kant and Plato would be impressed ... or not.

See, I also think that the original story is about more than just Superman's morality. It's also to establish that fact that he IS the world's most powerful hero. It's a long form "World of cardboard" speech. Superman's... well his SUPREMACY is something that DC has to keep reminding people of recently because they spend so much time undermining the character by having him get the crap beat out of him or made a fool of by writers for the sake of other characters for long stretches. Then they wonder why kids think he's lame?

It's like in MOS. When he appears in costume to bargain for Lois' release at first you don't see what the military is reacting to right after the church scene. My Grandmother on first viewing was like "all that for one man..." and then of course the shot is of Supes just stationary, floating above the ground like an angel from the heavens. "Oh.." she went. She, even after having half a film showcasing Superman's power and knowing the character quite well through me still had to be reminded of his power.

In ELITE and the original story it's clear that one of it's intentions is to point out that even though you look at him and just see a strong guy that flies, the truth is he's a walking gestalt of other worldly power that if he so chooses is indeed the single most powerful being on the planet. He chooses mercy though, and some often take that for weakness.

 

[MrsKent26]

I found the movie to be entertaining but there were certain aspects that didn't sit well with me.

Didn't like the whole mini crush subplot between Superman and Wonder Woman in Justice League: War. The romance aspect between those two always comes off as purely superficial and sexual which shouldn't be the case. Wonder Woman was aloof and Superman came across as completely ego inflated and both of them being horny for each other just didn't work.

Batman felt meek and noticeably more vulnerable despite his display of intelligence. He was just kind of there but without ever really feeling truly important when it came to the development of the group. I really liked his voice actor in fact I enjoyed all of them. Green Lantern's writing was pretty witty and comedic which I liked.

Victor's arc was nice and as tiny of a role Captain Marvel had I still enjoyed his presence.

Again it's not a bad movie but it's not the best of the animated movies as of late. Maybe the comic arc that it's based on isn't as strong but I found Paradox to but be infinitely better than this.

Entertaining but lacking in depth. This is actually exactly what I hope Batman vs Superman/Justice League doesn't end up turning into. Oh and what the heck happened to Steve Blum's voice? In the trailer it was noticeably him but it looks like at the last minute they changed their minds and completely deepened his voice beyond recognition.

I had some of the same issues with it, especially with the Supes/Wondy "romance." I have never seen that pair written in a way that seems real.

I mean the way he defeated the elite at the end, it was not earned. For the whole movie the elite is beating him up, and all of a sudden superman can take them. It was a cheat.

They also failed to uphold the do not kill rule in a legitimate manner. Superman uses lobotomy as an alternative --- ummm, whatever. I'm sure Kant and Plato would be impressed ... or not.

I agree. Did not like that ending. I can't subscribe to that notion that as long as he doesn't kill someone, nothing untoward happened.

Although, I'm not big on the no-kill rule anyways. Sometimes I don't think it can even exist for someone like superman. It's just convenient writing. If they don't put superman in a situation in which he has to choose between a super villain and humanity then...ta-da! No-kill rule.

 

[DA_Champion]

Krypton,

It's 10:40 pm here in Australia and I'm going to bed soon. We are on page 34 of part 33 of this this discussion. By the time I wake up, this discussion will be some place in part 36 or 37, and thus I won't be able to find your response. I also can't look up my most recent posts since I'm a half-banned poster who cannot look up posting histories. So I'm sorry, I won't be able to find your response.

Within the Elite movie, what I saw was Superman being weaker than the elite for the first 95%, and then easily beating the elite in the last 5%, so it didn't work well. Also, I don't like a climax resolution that comes from brute strength. I'd prefer some degree of intelligence involved.

But regardless... how is a lobotomizer better than a killer?

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Krypton,

It's 10:40 pm here in Australia and I'm going to bed soon. We are on page 34 of part 33 of this this discussion. By the time I wake up, this discussion will be some place in part 36 or 37, and thus I won't be able to find your response. I also can't look up my most recent posts since I'm a half-banned poster who cannot look up posting histories. So I'm sorry, I won't be able to find your response.

Within the Elite movie, what I saw was Superman being weaker than the elite for the first 95%, and then easily beating the elite in the last 5%, so it didn't work well. Also, I don't like a climax resolution that comes from brute strength. I'd prefer some degree of intelligence involved.

But regardless... how is a lobotomizer better than a killer?

Well brotha, I was not aware we were having a debate. Just sharing opinions. I'm not trying to convince you just sharing my take.

As for the lobotomy thing, well it's a lobotomy that in no way or form actually does what a real lobotomy would. I mean Black has all his mental faculties, just none of his metahuman powers.

 

[D.P.]

You guys do understand that the DCAU movies are meant to closely mimic (as close as they can anyway, American animation always looks cheap to me) the art from that particular story arc?

Bingo. Saving this post for summer 2016 when the criticisms of Nolan's trilogy pop up in record number.

This. Completely.

He has a point, but that doesn't mean you can't enjoy TDKT for what it was. You won't catch me doing a 180 and trying to crap on Nolan once these new DCU movies hit their stride. It's two different products.

It has it's weaknesses, but I won't act like it wasn't a master work that successfully melded genres that are highly respected by the mainstream with a genre that isn't as highly regarded in comic books. It did a lot for the image of CBMs as a whole, and was a quality trilogy.

I loved that it felt like I was watching "Heat" or the "Godfather" dressed up in a comic book world. We all long for a touch of fantasy though. That's why we love Batman.

 

[HUMANIMAL]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gInt...AeH9x2wWeTB32VCESjRI51&feature=c4-overview-vl

 

[jmc]

He has a point, but that doesn't mean you can't enjoy TDKT for what it was. You won't catch me doing a 180 and trying to crap on Nolan once these new DCU movies hit their stride. It's two different products.

It has it's weaknesses, but I won't act like it wasn't a master work that successfully melded genres that are highly respected by the mainstream with a genre that isn't as highly regarded in comic books. It did a lot for the image of CBMs as a whole, and was a quality trilogy.

I loved that it felt like I was watching "Heat" or the "Godfather" dressed up in a comic book world. We all long for a touch of fantasy though. That's why we love Batman.

The thing is there are people ready to pounce on Nolan the moment we first see footage of the new Batman interacting with Superman. I've come to learn over the last 10 years that in spite of the Nolan films being well crafted it's really bugged a lot of fans that he tried to be so literal in the interpretation of the character. That's not to say people haven't liked what he did, but it's still not quite 'right' for many. The phrase 'it's not a great Batman film' has been used time and time again especially for the latter two movies, which is code for 'I want it to be more superhero-like'. It didn't matter Nolan went to great lengths to preserve everything we love about Batman, it just wasn't exactly interpreted in they way they wanted. Come 2016 the knives will be out because we're finally getting what many have wanted, whether it's actually any good remains to be seen.

 

[J.Howlett]

The thing is there are people ready to pounce on Nolan the moment we first see footage of the new Batman interacting with Superman. I've come to learn over the last 10 years that in spite of the Nolan films being well crafted it's really bugged a lot of fans that he tried to be so literal in the interpretation of the character. That's not to say people haven't liked what he did, but it's still not quite 'right' for many. The phrase 'it's not a great Batman film' has been used time and time again especially for the latter two movies, which is code for 'I want it to be more superhero-like'. It didn't matter Nolan went to great lengths to preserve everything we love about Batman, it just wasn't exactly interpreted in they way they wanted. Come 2016 the knives will be out because we're finally getting what many have wanted, whether it's actually any good remains to be seen.

You saved me a post. This here, people. Exactly.

 

[Rorschach2012]

Just rewatched Superman the Movie. What a classic....

It made me realize how much MOS pales in comparison to STM as far as the Superman origin story goes. Clark's origin is just handled a lot better imo. I enjoyed the action sequences in MOS a lot more than the action sequences in STM, but still STM is a superior film.

The way Jonathan died in the original was infinitely more emotionally resonant, and the scenes with young Clark are done way better.

There are so many classic and timeless moments in STM, MOS feels hollow in comparison. STM had so much heart and soul. It leaves you feeling warm when you watch it. Maybe it's just nostalgia speaking for me...

i loved MOS, but it didn't reach its full potential. Combine the story of STM with the action/special effects level of MOS and thats a perfect Superman movie.

 

[Travesty]

Eh, I wouldn't say "exactly", J Howlett.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

You saved me a post. This here, people. Exactly.

I'm not necessarily going to consider myself one of those people just yet, but chances are I will probably enjoy this new franchise based alone on the fantasy element and the fact that it stays a little truer to the comics.

I loved that Nolan did his own thing, and as a result of that he made 2 of my favorite Bat movies to date, but there is no convincing me that the 3rd wasn't a complete piece of s**t.