BvS All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 34

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But, unlike STM, their intent wasn't to make a serious story. It was to make a silly, fun, fantastical one not grounded in reality. They approached it as film makers making a serious effort to create a film, but they didn't intend for it to be a serious movie in and of itself.

This is sort of why I prefer the Marvel movies (Despite being more of a DC fan). They have no qualms about establishing their universe as completely separate from our own. A universe where World War 2 featured energy weapons and Stark Expo's with flying cars.

Any movie set in the DC universe is by nature not set in our universe because in our universe there's no such place as Gotham or Metropolis.

One of the things I love about the DC Universe is just how fantastical it is and varied in it's interpretation. I feel like we already had the grounded take for the last 10 years with Nolan's films. Maybe Green Lantern spooked WB a bit and caused them to insist that Snyder make Superman grounded and seem plausible. But Superman to me shouldn't seem plausible it should seem fantastical.

Just my 2 Cents.

That's why I hope the next movie moves away from the grounded tone.
 
A lot of people I know hated Speed Racer.

Personally I loved it.

I loved it too.

But, unlike STM, their intent wasn't to make a serious story. It was to make a silly, fun, fantastical one not grounded in reality. They approached it as film makers making a serious effort to create a film, but they didn't intend for it to be a serious movie in and of itself.

True. Just using that as an example of people taking the character they're working with seriously no matter the outcome of the film. The only time I felt it wasn't being taken seriously was with Batman & Robin, but even then there seemed to some respect to it in terms of Bruce's journey.
 
Oh of course the word 'bad' is subjective, even in the context of film. But there's a longstanding critical Bell Curve in effect when you classify of a movie as 'bad.' Especially a movie that is (well, was) almost universally praised for it's multi-faceted greatness (at the time).

That's where my opinion that your categorizing STM as 'bad' is uneducated simply because you didn't like it. Bad in contrast to.. what? There are truly few things you can compare it to from a critical standpoint, taking emotion out of the equation.

Again, I'm not saying you can't call it bad. Just expect lots of people to not only disagree with your opinion but to provide basis for why it was/is considered a great cinematic achievement.

Why do you think Armond White is considered a contrarian? He makes a living out of flipping the Bell Curve of film criticism upside down. Doesn't mean his opinions are wrong, just means they come across as silly since you have a standard to compare them to.





Just look around the net:

What are the challenges you were presented with? How drastically different was the script you were initially presented with?

DONNER: Phenomenal. I mean, it was ridiculous. The script I read was like 400 pages that were ridiculous. They had Superman flying down looking for Lex Luthor, but he stops Telly Savalas on the street, who says, "Who loves ya baby." It was just sickening. It had no approach, no sense of reality, no sense of its own verisimilitude – its own life in the reality of what Krypton was, and what Smallville was, and what the transition to Metropolis was going to be.

What were the notes you brought to re-envisioning the script?

DONNER: Oh, that's endless. As I said earlier, I wanted a sense of reality in each of the three phases of the movie. Krypton had to have its reality. Smallville had to have its own. And then Metropolis. We threw out anything that was supercilious or in any way sends up the characters, because the characters are all bigger than life to start with. Lex Luthor is bigger than life. If you compounded that bigger-than-life, there'd be no threat. He wouldn't be a worthy villain.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2001/05/01/interview-with-director-richard-donner?page=2

http://herocomplex.latimes.com/movi...-play-superman-the-way-christopher-reeve-did/

Interviews with Donner are aplenty. In almost every one (some as late as the 2000s) he talks at great length at how seriously the took the movie, and how seriously they approached the story.

Again, if that didn't resonate with you that's one thing; and it's ok. But it was there. On the page, in their intent and on the screen.
The first part is just that age old "this movie is a classic, most people like it and you should too" argument. I don't care about bell curves. I like what I like and to me it was bad. It may have come off better in its time. But I can only judge it now.


The 2nd part I agree with because you presented evidence, as I agreed with KalMart.

My opinion on the movie and how serious it seemed to me reminds the same.
 
This is sort of why I prefer the Marvel movies (Despite being more of a DC fan). They have no qualms about establishing their universe as completely separate from our own. A universe where World War 2 featured energy weapons and Stark Expo's with flying cars.

Any movie set in the DC universe is by nature not set in our universe because in our universe there's no such place as Gotham or Metropolis.

One of the things I love about the DC Universe is just how fantastical it is and varied in it's interpretation. I feel like we already had the grounded take for the last 10 years with Nolan's films. Maybe Green Lantern spooked WB a bit and caused them to insist that Snyder make Superman grounded and seem plausible. But Superman to me shouldn't seem plausible it should seem fantastical.

Just my 2 Cents.

That's why I hope the next movie moves away from the grounded tone.

Yep. I feel the same way. Long ago, I don't remember where, I read a comparison of Marvel vs DC that rings true to why I like their differences so much:

Marvel gives you a familiar world filled with familiar people who are turned into heroes you can relate to

DC gives you a fantastical world filled with fantastical idols who will amaze you

Basically, Marvel has more "real world" restrictions than DC does, and it's funny seeing their respective movie verses flipped around.
 
But that doesn't mean that it's not real, though. Again...I don't care if Keanu Reeves intended to act well in Dracula or how hard he tried, because I thought he sucked. But it doesn't mean if I wonder if he intentionally tried to act badly....so I can't really correctly say that Keanu 'didn't take his job/role seriously..' or what have you. He just did it badly in my view....or just his delivery didn't let me take it seriously.

I...agreed with you.:huh: They meant it..I saw what else you wrote about the creators intentions and agreed that they intended it to be serious. I just don't take it seriously myself. I have admitted this in my previous post.
 
This is sort of why I prefer the Marvel movies (Despite being more of a DC fan). They have no qualms about establishing their universe as completely separate from our own. A universe where World War 2 featured energy weapons and Stark Expo's with flying cars.

Any movie set in the DC universe is by nature not set in our universe because in our universe there's no such place as Gotham or Metropolis.

One of the things I love about the DC Universe is just how fantastical it is and varied in it's interpretation. I feel like we already had the grounded take for the last 10 years with Nolan's films. Maybe Green Lantern spooked WB a bit and caused them to insist that Snyder make Superman grounded and seem plausible. But Superman to me shouldn't seem plausible it should seem fantastical.

Just my 2 Cents.

That's why I hope the next movie moves away from the grounded tone.

I find it interesting how the standard response for the comics and reversed for the films. Marvel was "real" and DC was "not real enough" for the comics but the goals of the films seem to be the opposite.
 
The first part is just that age old "this movie is a classic, most people like it and you should too" argument. I don't care about bell curves. I like what I like and to me it was bad. It may have come off better in its time. But I can only judge it now.

It's actually not the same at all. That's like saying someone failing a standardized test didn't fail because I don't believe in standardized tests. Turning a blind eye to reality doesn't change reality.

Again, believe whatever you want to. But don't expect your opinions to not be called silly or uneducated.
 
The MCU begins on Earth and deals with a guy who makes robot suits.

The DCCU begins on an alien planet for 20 minutes, with sounds you've never heard before, technology you've never seen before, flying dragons, etc.

I'd say the DCU is plenty fantastical.

The difference is tone.
 
I find it interesting how the standard response for the comics and reversed for the films. Marvel was "real" and DC was "not real enough" for the comics but the goals of the films seem to be the opposite.

It really is quite interesting.
 
I find it interesting how the standard response for the comics and reversed for the films. Marvel was "real" and DC was "not real enough" for the comics but the goals of the films seem to be the opposite.

Which, to me, is so odd because characters like Superman found their place in the pop culture lexicon by not being relatable, but by being heroes you could look up as being the pinnacle of an ideological standpoint. Even someone like Batman was a character that you understood, empathized with, rooted for and idolized, but you didn't want to literally be him since it required losing your parents and being eternally alone. Whereas the opposite goes into characters like Spider-Man or Hulk who accentuate aspects of our everyday personalities.
 
The MCU begins on Earth and deals with a guy who makes robot suits.

The DCCU begins on an alien planet for 20 minutes, with sounds you've never heard before, technology you've never seen before, flying dragons, etc.

I'd say the DCU is plenty fantastical.

The difference is tone.

People want quips.
 
It's actually not the same at all. That's like saying someone failing a standardized test didn't fail because I don't believe in standardized tests. Turning a blind eye to reality doesn't change reality.

Again, believe whatever you want to. But don't expect your opinions to not be called silly or uneducated.

:huh:

The question of whether or not STM is good or not is as binary as a standardized test? That is exactly what I said: you're arguing that I cannot say its bad unless I am being silly or uneducated. I just have different tastes. STM the movie being a good movie is not reality. It's an opinion.
 
So, Snyder has said in interviews that DKReturns is influencing how Clark and Bruce relate to one another, more or less. I remember seeing an interview with Miller himself where he says that to his mind the conflict between the two should come down to the way they view the world. Batman views the world, as you'd expect a person whose life was shattered when they were 8yrs old, as total chaos. Chaos to him is in fact more prevalent and natural than order. For Batman, he himself has taken on the task of establishing order in the world, but he is not blind to what he thinks it's natural state is. Miller's take on Clark is that he, as someone graced with extraordinary power and with a loving set of parents through his whole childhood, thinks that order is not only right, but it's truly the default setting of civilization and it's a big reason why he does his best to defend the status quo. Now I am not saying I find Miller's views absolutely correct for either character, and since we are dealing with Snyder and Co.'s takes on both of them perhaps Miller's take is moot. But I would like to know what others think. Was Miller on to something, or was he mistaken in your view?
 
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The thing is that you say it as if you found out tonight...from this conversation...that they did mean it seriously. Really? It took this long?

Wouldn't it seem weird to you that they'd take his origin and childhood/adolescence as seriously as they did then suddenly switch to farce or gag comedy? I mean, some people do complain about that feeling like such a shift, which I can see...but they still at least knew it was all under the same 'we mean all of this' umbrella.

I did find it out from this conversation. I never cared to find the answer before because it wouldn't change my opinion on the film. I would still say it was more of a comedy as opposed to a serious dramatic film because that's what it seems like to me.
 
It really is quite interesting.

I think part of it may have to do with being able to market these characters for all ages. You don't really want people going "Maybe I shouldn't take my kids to see this superhero film."

Which, to me, is so odd because characters like Superman found their place in the pop culture lexicon by not being relatable, but by being heroes you could look up as being the pinnacle of an ideological standpoint. Even someone like Batman was a character that you understood, empathized with, rooted for and idolized, but you didn't want to literally be him since it required losing your parents and being eternally alone. Whereas the opposite goes into characters like Spider-Man or Hulk who accentuate aspects of our everyday personalities.

True. Though, for me I never gave a damn about relating to these characters since they all so larger than life anyway. As long as they remained true to who they are, I'm good. Superman actually has a pretty average life as Clark Kent. But, I guess that isn't "relatable" enough.

I just wanted see or read them have their awesome adventures that they were pretty much always likely to win. Though, some battles did have some personal loses and whatnot.
 
:huh:

The question of whether or not STM is good or not is as binary as a standardized test?

The assessment of what makes a film good or bad -- story structure, dialogue, pacing, visual effects, acting, direction, cinematography, musical composition, etc and how they combine together -- is the critical equivalent of a standardized test. Just like standardized tests have right or wrong answers, there are right or wrong assessments of films.

"Like" "love" and "hate" have nothing to do with it

This is why, as apposed to the popular quip, not everyone can be a critic

That is exactly what I said: you're arguing that I cannot say its bad unless I am being silly or uneducated.

Yes. Feel free to say it's bad, and I'll feel free to say your in an uneducated opinion about this movie.

I just have different tastes.

Taste has nothing to do with it. I didn't like Pacific Rim at all and I find a lot of flaws in it but it's a good movie in that they put on the screen what they intended to.

STM the movie being a good movie is not reality. It's an opinion.

And I consider that an uneducated opinion.
 
Alright, done with that convo. Sorry for derailing the thread. As least we weren't talking about Ray Harryhausen. Then I get animated :p
 
If 50% of critics gave a movie 1/10 and 50% gave a movie 10/10, which group is 'right'?

There is no right answer because there is no answer key.
 
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Pff...Harryhausen...


All his animation was so choppy...he could have learned a thing or two from those Celebrity Death Match or Robot Chicken animators...

Yeah man. What company did his CGI? It looks so cheap and dated
 
Personally...

I believe a good movie and good film making aren't mutually exclusive terms.

Some of the most entertaining movies I've watched have been examples of some of the worst film making ever undertaken. Stuff like Godfrey Ho and many 80's action D grade flicks.

Same with stuff like Troll 2 or The Room. Some people love those movies and get joy out of watching them. Are they good in that they provide entertainment and laughter? You bet they are.

Are they good in terms of exhibiting the skill and talent of the artisans who created them? Hell no. They're awful.
 
If 50% of critics gave a movie 1/10 and 50% gave a movie 10/10, which group is 'right'?

There is no right answer because there is no answer key.

That's why I said the terms 'good' and 'bad' when speaking of overall response to a film are gauged on a Bell Curve. a 50/50 split means a polarizing movie. But what would you call a movie that has a 97% positive/3% negative split? Still unmeasurable?
 
Personally...

I believe a good movie and good film making aren't mutually exclusive terms.

Some of the most entertaining movies I've watched have been examples of some of the worst film making ever undertaken. Stuff like Godfrey Ho and many 80's action D grade flicks.

Same with stuff like Troll 2 or The Room. Some people love those movies and get joy out of watching them. Are they good in that they provide entertainment and laughter? You bet they are.

Are they good in terms of exhibiting the skill and talent of the artisans who created them? Hell no. They're awful.

Hence the loosely used term "good bad-movie." Which are some of my favs :yay:
 
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