BvS All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

[Crimson King]

I don't think it's quite so simple.
For starters bane hasn't pulled that kinda move in the comics(I haven't read in a while), TDKR was pretty bold and unique in that way. If anything, when batman's back was broken, it was left to the 'bat family' to handle the city.

Secondly, bane's threat about seeing and keeping any military out of gotham, very much applies to the best humanity has to offer, not so much the dudes with light speed travel and invisibility(jets) and mind control etc. Just saying, it's not so simple. TDKR was very much a unique and opportune situation in which superpowered fiends just couldn't exist...right down to getting rid of a nuke.

Well if it was a connected universe, I would expect Bane to take into account Batman's friends, wouldn't you?

The point is that these are not insurmountable problems like some make them out to be. If you don't like connected universes, fine, but don't act like it can't be done and done well.

 

[DA_Champion]

Nobody has come up with a good situation to write TDKR in a JL universe.

The point has been made for months.

 

[AnneFan]

Superman is never Flash fast. Even Grant Morrison's Superman (but that's because he also writes Flash as the ultimate expression of speed).

Yep, it would be silly if Superman or any other character could beat The Flash at running when the guy is built completely around that concept.

 

[Crimson King]

Nobody has come up with a good situation to write TDKR in a JL universe.

The point has been made for months.

TDKR wasn't that great of a story to begin with to act like it's a reason not to do a shared universe.

Honestly, who are you trying to convince here? If you're not into this kind of universe, what are you doing in this thread?

 

[Marvin]

Superman is never Flash fast. Even Grant Morrison's Superman (but that's because he also writes Flash as the ultimate expression of speed).

The main difference was what flash could do with his powers. Such as lending and stealing and what not. There were moments where Flash would transcend light speed during the morrison era but that would tend to result in time jumps(I don't read the current stuff).

Superman in that JLA run was said to be just under light speed(not sure what electric blue superman was up to). Admittedly under flashes speed for flash had no limit. Still given light is the universal constant it almost didn't matter.
Superman prime or sun dipped superman are big questions unto themselves.

I think if you keep superman speeds measured in levels of Mach, you're golden.

 

[DA_Champion]

TDKR wasn't that great of a story to begin with

Completely irrelevant, and incorrect in any case,

Honestly, who are you trying to convince here? If you're not into this kind of universe, what are you doing in this thread?

 

[Smallville13]

The more you limit him, the more opportunities to have him fail. See Jon Kent's death, and all that other stuff he could have solved in MOS, if he had his full comic book abilities.

Granted that might mean you confuse fans as to why he's not omnipotent but it helps the tension in the long run. Have him bee jet fast but not flash fast.

This is always a big problem with Supes though. Scoping his powers. I feel like it should be Snyder's job to properly define them and set their limits. Even the New 52 has failed at this. Superman struggling with smaller stuff, followed by Superman bench pressing more than the weight of the Earth for 5 days. (thanks Lobdell you hack)

 

[Crimson King]

Completely irrelevant, and incorrect in any case,

Please explain how my opinion is incorrect.

And you didn't answer the question I asked.

 

[hafizbat]

Levi the link doesn't work.

Anyway, if they made a well-written movie about Lois and Clark investigating something with Superman barely showing up, I'd love it, though I realise half this forum would explode.

Sure, as long as it was called "Lois and Clark", or something to that effect. But I don't think its that outrageous to expect a Superman movie to feature Superman...

 

[Marvin]

Well if it was a connected universe, I would expect Bane to take into account Batman's friends, wouldn't you?

The point is that these are not insurmountable problems like some make them out to be. If you don't like connected universes, fine, but don't act like it can't be done and done well.

Actually all I said was that it's creates alot of problems and ultimately is 'harder' to pull off....to the point that most films(and comicbooks) just say screw it and go for it anyways opening themselves up to tons of plot holes. The nolan film didn't have to make that compromise, though it made others, this one luckily wasn't one of them.

As for how Bane would account for the jla, sure, just look at avengers and how many steps and contingencies Loki took to account for that roster...effectively presenting our issue: No more true solo films. Seems less intimate in the long run don't you think? Every villain would need to pull a loki in avengers to account for dealing with a singular hero in an origin or sequel.
Secondly, I don't see batman accounting for superman in this next movie let alone bane doing so for the entire league. Superman can scan the city from space, j'onn...etc I digress. When properly written the league is alot to deal with(the most ever imo). I can see how such things might work against the current avengers though...and maybe a nolanized league..

Make no mistake, I like crossovers as much as the next guy. My initial point was that people need to stop criticizing the decision not to do them. As seen with this compliant that the tv shows aren't looking to be connected.

 

[Crimson King]

Make no mistake, I like crossovers as much as the next guy. My initial point was that people need to stop criticizing the decision not to do them. As seen with this compliant that the tv shows aren't looking to be connected.

No skin off my back if a company decides not to do a shared universe. I'm certainly not saying there's a right way and a wrong way. I'm saying that it can be done well in either instance. My personal preference is for a connected universe. YMMV.

But to give a blanket statement that all shared universes are somehow hamstrung creatively or otherwise simply isn't true.

And what really blows my mind is that the complaints are from people who are presumably fans of the comics--which are all part of the same universe.

 

[Marvin]

What works in comics doesn't always work in film.
Nolan would probably want to write a book on the matter. I'd say the sentiment is half right.

 

[MrsKent26]

I don't think all shared universes are impacted negatively by their connectedness as a rule, but the only shared cinematic universe in CBMs so far is Marvel's and the approach hasn't done them any favors, IMO.

 

[hafizbat]

I don't think all shared universes are impacted negatively by their connectedness as a rule, but the only shared cinematic universe in CBMs so far is Marvel's and the approach hasn't done them any favors, IMO.

Really? Why do you think it hasn't done them any favors? Just asking out of curiosity, as they seem to be pretty damn successful. Whether you like their movies or not is a matter of taste, but surely you can't deny their success.

 

[Marvin]

I like the idea when they fully go for it in a crossover. Such as DCU online. It can be pretty damn glorious.

But to just have it be there constantly looming...very difficult. For creators and challenging audiences alike.

 

[Masone]

Well if it was a connected universe, I would expect Bane to take into account Batman's friends, wouldn't you?

This. If the JL existed in that universe, Bane would have certainly accounted for their presence.

 

[MrsKent26]

Really? Why do you think it hasn't done them any favors? Just asking out of curiosity, as they seem to be pretty damn successful. Whether you like their movies or not is a matter of taste, but surely you can't deny their success.

I've never denied they have financial success and I said "IMO". I find many of the marvel studios movies formulaic and mediocre. Their purpose seems to be to connect things and prepare for the next Avengers. Basically, I think the assembly line approach stifles their artistic merit and uniqueness. And I said IMO before and here it is again for any flamers: IMO.

 

[hafizbat]

I like the idea when they fully go for it in a crossover. Such as DCU online. It can be pretty damn glorious.

But to just have it be there constantly looming...very difficult. For creators and challenging audiences alike.

I disagree. Sure, Marvel is pretty tightly connected. But that doesn't stop them from giving their solo characters space in their own movies. IM3 was all about Iron Man, Thor 2 was all about Thor, and Cap 2 is all about Cap (and Black Widow). I think they've done a good job about not letting the shared universe become a hindrance.

 

[Crimson King]

I don't think all shared universes are impacted negatively by their connectedness as a rule, but the only shared cinematic universe in CBMs so far is Marvel's and the approach hasn't done them any favors, IMO.

Fox's X-Men movies are connected.

And I don't think Marvel's approach has really been unfavorable to them, do you? I know you're a self-professed DC fan, but it's hard to argue that their approach hasn't been successful.

That being said, there's always room for improvement. I look forward to great things from both companies.

 

[hafizbat]

I've never denied they have financial success and I said "IMO". I find many of the marvel studios movies formulaic and mediocre. Their purpose seems to be to connect things and prepare for the next Avengers. Basically, I think the assembly line approach stifles their artistic merit and uniqueness. And I said IMO before and here it is again for any flamers: IMO.

No need to get so defensive, it was an honest question about your line of thought.

 

[Frodo]

For me as a fan either way works. What matters to me more is the story. If the story or characters have to be limited because it conflicts with some other director's and creators vision for an unrelated film in the same universe then its a problem , but thankfully we haven't gotten to that point. We almost got to that point with JLA Mortal, but Nolan helped stomp that out before it messed with his universe.

Again, I don't think its an either or thing as fans tend to place it as. It worked for Marvel Disney, Nolan did their own things which strengthened his vision. Both model's work. What's more important me is that the model fits the character as opposed to the character being shoehorned into the model. Thankfully , I would say most of Marvel's characters can inhabit the same world without there being too much WFT type moments. If WB does it right, it should be able to work .

 

[The Shape]

I can't wait til we start getting actual news about this project.

Each day in this thread consists of bashing the ending/destruction of MOS, and then the conversation somehow turns into a DC/Marvel debate. It's ridiculous and unwelcoming for many posters, I'd imagine.

 

[MrsKent26]

Fox's X-Men movies are connected.

And I don't think Marvel's approach has really been unfavorable to them, do you? I know you're a self-professed DC fan, but it's hard to argue that their approach hasn't been successful.

That being said, there's always room for improvement. I look forward to great things from both companies.

Yes, I think it's been unfavourable. Really. I am
not a DC fan by loyalty (I don't even like all DC films), but because their movies (when successful) aren't feather-light and mass produced. I think marvel's approach has led to many dull movies. Of course it hasn't been bad financially.

No need to get so defensive, it was an honest question about your line of thought.

Sorry, I've been flamed about this before.

 

[Crimson King]

Yes, I think it's been unfavourable. Really. I am
not a DC fan by loyalty (I don't even like all DC films), but because their movies (when successful) aren't feather-light and mass produced. I think marvel's approach has led to many dull movies. Of course it hasn't been bad financially.

Sorry. I could have sworn I've seen posts from you where you said you were unapologetically DC-oriented. My mistake.

 

[Marvin]

This. If the JL existed in that universe, Bane would have certainly accounted for their presence.

Resulting in a very different film(which is kinda the point here).
You have to appreciate that Bane's little threat wasn't actually what kept batman from showing up and ending what must have been months of needless deaths and suffering and terror(ism). It was Batman being broken and trapped in a hole. When batman was able he strolled on in. Care to explain what would be stopping 4 other supers with gumption from taking action or better yet Finding Batman. I know being fired gave alfred an excuse to peace out but...

In a world in which the audience questions how superman can let even one person die under extreme circumstances, I find it hard to believe fans would accept him chilling in metropolis for months on end and do nothing without gotham being literally sprinkled with kryptonite.