BvS All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - Part 46

[Iceman]

I've never really liked kryptonite being his main weakness. I'd rather the villains were on his level or greater and capable of doing whatever damage kryptonite can do to him.

 

[Iceman]

The discrepancy in MoS scores can be easily explained with a large standard deviation in its scores.

If every reviewer gives Movie A a 7/10, then it will have 100% on the tomato meter.
If half the reviewers gives Movie B a 4/10 and the other half an 8/10, then it will have 50% on the tomato meter.

Yeah, if you look at average rating and then tomatometer, tomatometer just gives a lot less information. The average rating takes account of the full range of the scale 0-10 while the tomatometer just looks at an arbitrary level and whether each review falls above or below.

 

[DA_Champion]

I agree that the tomato meter is probably the harshest of the major measures with which to judge MoS, but past a certain stage these measures should not be taken too seriously. The precision is inherently limited due to a small sample size (only ~250 reviews) as well as the fact that assigning a single number to a movie is not completely meaningful.

 

[Jekecy]

Yeah, if you look at average rating and then tomatometer, tomatometer just gives a lot less information. The average rating takes account of the full range of the scale 0-10 while the tomatometer just looks at an arbitrary level and whether each review falls above or below.

There's nothing arbitrary of categorizing like/dislike though. If anything it's the most objective movie score there is (go see it versus don't see it), especially since the certified critics tell RT whether to designate their own review as rotten or not.

It's why Siskel & Ebert's thumbs up/down scale caught on so quickly. It gets rid of all the BS, and all you have to look for is one of two grades. There's no need to analyze an arbitrary number system. It's very clear as to what is recommended.

That's what RT tries to do for the layman by aggregating all these reviews. Essentially all they would need to look for is whether the movie is a fresh tomato.

 

[SpideyFan866]

I've never really liked kryptonite being his main weakness. I'd rather the villains were on his level or greater and capable of doing whatever damage kryptonite can do to him.

Only Doomsday, Darkseid, and Kryptonians/Kandorians have that much power.

 

[Iceman]

There's nothing arbitrary of categorizing like/dislike though. If anything it's the most objective movie score there is (go see it versus don't see it), especially since the certified critics tell RT whether to designate their own review as rotten or not.

It's why Siskel & Ebert's thumbs up/down scale caught on so quickly. It gets rid of all the BS, and all you have to look for is one of two grades. There's no need to analyze an arbitrary number system. It's very clear as to what is recommended.

That's what RT tries to do for the layman by aggregating all these reviews. Essentially all they would need to look for is whether the movie is a fresh tomato.

Yes, I agree with all that, the tomatometer is a good summary for the layman (although the average rating being just one number out of 10 is also quite clear for the layman and could be turned into a tomato if 6 or 7/10 plus and rotten if below or whatever). But for people on here discussing which film is actually better on the basis of critical reviews alone, the average rating has all the (limited) information of the tomatometer plus a lot more. It's like choosing to classify which is better only by how many maximum score reviews it received or how many scathing reviews rather than just providing the unbiased average which takes everything into account anyway. I don't really see the need for other measures outside of the average unless I guess if someone wanted to eliminate the extreme reviews on either side.

 

[Iceman]

Only Doomsday, Darkseid, and Kryptonians/Kandorians have that much power.

Yes, it's like someone said earlier..other heroes like Thor or Hulk are also hugely powerful and to an extent invulnerable without needing a weakness like kryptonite. I'd rather ditch this kryptonite weakness and raise the level of the rest of his rogues gallery. It would be different if kryptonite was something that was powerful enough to affect most superpowered beings.

 

[slumcat]

Yeah, if you look at average rating and then tomatometer, tomatometer just gives a lot less information. The average rating takes account of the full range of the scale 0-10 while the tomatometer just looks at an arbitrary level and whether each review falls above or below.

The average rating (out of 10) is also flawed. It only averages reviews from reviewers who give a number grade. Outlets like say NYT, do not score a movie, just write a review, so they do not contribute to the average rating (out of 10). But atleast by reading you can gauge whether a review is positive or negative so the Tomatometer is counting just that, the percentage of reviews that are positive.

Metacritic is also problematic. They actually read the review and assign it a number grade ON THEIR OWN.

The best possible gauge of critical reaction can only come at the end of the year. The end of year critics polls and Top 10 lists are the best source of critical acclaim, as that is where the passion shines through. So true critical reaction, frankly is gauged only at the end of the year.

Exhibit A - Harry Potter 8 - 96% on RT, Average Rating 8.4, MC rating 87/100. You would think one of the best films of the year? Did not make the Top 50 in any of major critics poll of the year. Not even the Top 50 yeah.

Exhibit B - Mullholland Drive - 81% on RT, Average Rating 7.4, MC ratin 81/100. Nice positive reaction right? UNIVERSALLY hailed as a gigantic masterpiece, topped every single critics poll in 2001 as the best film of the year, top every critics poll in 2009 as the best film of the decade. Now regarded as one of the greatest films ever made.

So the end of the year showed us what critics really thought of Mulholland Drive and Harry Potter 8, their reviews did not.

So end of year lists are your best indicator. And even later, lists like Sight and Sound ( a poll run once every decade) gives you a broader view of how films have aged.

 

[HighFivingMF]

Only Doomsday, Darkseid, and Kryptonians/Kandorians have that much power.

And Bizarro. And Lobo. And Parasite. And Atomic Skull. And certain versions of Brainiac. And Mongul. And Cyborg Superman. Among plenty of others.

 

[Iceman]

The average rating (out of 10) is also flawed. It only averages reviews from reviewers who give a number grade. Outlets like say NYT, do not score a movie, just write a review, so they do not contribute to the average rating (out of 10). But atleast by reading you can gauge whether a review is positive or negative so the Tomatometer is counting just that, the percentage of reviews that are positive.

Metacritic is also problematic. They actually read the review and assign it a number grade ON THEIR OWN.

The best possible gauge of critical reaction can only come at the end of the year. The end of year critics polls and Top 10 lists are the best source of critical acclaim, as that is where the passion shines through. So true critical reaction, frankly is gauged only at the end of the year.

Exhibit A - Harry Potter 8 - 96% on RT, Average Rating 8.4, MC rating 87/100. You would think one of the best films of the year? Did not make the Top 50 in any of major critics poll of the year. Not even the Top 50 yeah.

Exhibit B - Mullholland Drive - 81% on RT, Average Rating 7.4, MC ratin 81/100. Nice positive reaction right? UNIVERSALLY hailed as a gigantic masterpiece, topped every single critics poll in 2001 as the best film of the year, top every critics poll in 2009 as the best film of the decade. Now regarded as one of the greatest films ever made.

So the end of the year showed us what critics really thought of Mulholland Drive and Harry Potter 8, their reviews did not.

So end of year lists are your best indicator. And even later, lists like Sight and Sound ( a poll run once every decade) gives you a broader view of how films have aged.

Yes, you'll likely get better, more considered verdicts when critics have had a chance to reflect at the end of the year. I do suspect many of them "fall in line" though after having given something that is later recognised as a masterpiece a hasty negative rating. I don't see many negative reviews for classics any more, even though many of them received mixed reviews at the time of release for eg.

 

[slumcat]

Yes, you'll likely get better, more considered verdicts when critics have had a chance to reflect at the end of the year. I do suspect many of them "fall in line" though after having given something that is later recognised as a masterpiece a hasty negative rating. I don't see many negative reviews for classics any more, even though many of them received mixed reviews at the time of release for eg.

I have read several, they are just not readily available. The reason for that is technical. Though most outlets have published for several decades, before the late 90's, all their material was in print format. Beginning late 90's, every outlet had their material online too.

So outlets which have digitized their back catalog, like Variety and NYT, you can read their reviews almost 100 years back even. But others not so much.

So its simply a technical issue more than anything else.

 

[Space Ghost]

What human weapons? Zod and his gang were shrugging off ballistic missles from the military.

Clark is pretty god-like even in MOS. There has to be a plot device to make him vulnerable. The green rock has been around over 70 years, do you have a better suggestion?



Numbers don't lie.

Now Batman can try to replicate the atmosphere of Krypton.

 

[Fallen Angel]

Now Batman can try to replicate the atmosphere of Krypton.

how do you imagine he'll go about doing that?.

 

[Space Ghost]

how do you imagine he'll go about doing that?.

If i knew that i would be Batman

 

[Marvin]

anyways I want to see a candid picture of Cavill, Affleck and Gadot together, maybe the cast and crew eating out somewhere. I can wait for their official reveal in their new suits.

Maybe if Snyder/WB/Cav/Affleck were all about twitter/instagram and social media...

I would hope this production would take on the marc web/singer approach to social media, but I fear that even if the players themselves did want to, the studio is all about their own marketing. I find it pretty remarkable what Dwayne Johnson has done for the awareness and media attention for hercules. If it was up to paramount, this recent trailer would have been the first most any one had seen of it. Yet folks like Grace Randolph is talking about how hyped it has been....

Then again there is Gal.

 

[Iceman]

I have read several, they are just not readily available. The reason for that is technical. Though most outlets have published for several decades, before the late 90's, all their material was in print format. Beginning late 90's, every outlet had their material online too.

So outlets which have digitized their back catalog, like Variety and NYT, you can read their reviews almost 100 years back even. But others not so much.

So its simply a technical issue more than anything else.

Oh I meant more recent reviews of classic films. Rotten Tomatoes has a fair number for many of them, although of course nowhere near as many as for modern films. And most of them get near 100% tomatometer and high average ratings even if they had mixed reviews at the time of coming out. It was just an extra point in relation to giving reviewers time to reflect before writing their reviews giving better reviews (which I definitely agree it does) but coming also with my suspicion that some of these guys will just fall in line with the majority opinion if that film is later deemed a classic. Sorry, was just me straying from the main discussion a bit.

 

[Fallen Angel]

Maybe if Snyder/WB/Cav/Affleck were all about twitter/instagram and social media...

I would hope this production would take on the marc web/singer approach to social media, but I fear that even if the players themselves did want to, the studio is all about their own marketing. I find it pretty remarkable what Dwayne Johnson has done for the awareness and media attention for hercules. If it was up to paramount, this recent trailer would have been the first most any one had seen of it. Yet folks like Grace Randolph is talking about how hyped it has been....

Then again there is Gal.

Who's on twitter from this cast?

Affleck
Gadot
Snyder

and that's it I think.

 

[Charlatan]

Only Doomsday, Darkseid, and Kryptonians/Kandorians have that much power.

Parasite,Mxyzptlk,Brainiac all have a way to exploit his vulnerabilities without Kryptonite. And really anyone who wants to use his humanity against him can make him vulnerable.

 

[Charlatan]

Who's on twitter from this cast?

Affleck
Gadot
Snyder

and that's it I think.

other insiders are Mark Twight and Michael Wilkerson.

Mark definitely doesn't like Detroit. he tweeted that it was time to get "industrial" and "armed" before flying out . Today he tweeted It might be time again for a little speed, some guns, a mohawk and a mission. http://ow.ly/rM4WL

 

[taigawithapen]

how do you imagine he'll go about doing that?.

Off the top of my head:

Some sort of mask like Zod/Faora wore in MOS. Batman would need incredible stealth to get it on though, maybe through the use of some sort of new Batsuit that hides body temp and has some sort of light-refraction based camouflage.

or maybe...

A lead constructed room that replicates Kryptonian environments (or maybe emits Red Sun radiation). Would just have to trick Superman into walking into a trap; probably through emotional ties to Lois or something.

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

I'm ready to go two summers away or not, luckily my wife allowed me to grace our vehicle with such epicness. I keep thinking about the first footage well see and how exciting it'll be for the fan population.

 

[Crimson King]

A significant fraction of Crimson King's posts are belligerent, condescending, or just aggressive in some way. I wouldn't read too much into it.

And here I thought you and I were getting along better.

I don't feel I was being belligerent. If we could go a day without comparing Marvel and DC, I think the board would be better for it.

 

[WitchTrialz]

If i knew that i would be Batman

This man makes a valid point.

I don't know how he'd replicate that, NASA can replicate different atmospheres right? He would have to lead him into a container the size of a warehouse probably.
I think back to watchmen when ozymandias lead dr Manhattan right square center between a particle separator (right?) and zap he's gone (but not or good of course)
I can see a similar scenario where we see batman working on this huge contraption in the cave and then supes hunts him down in the cave and steps square center between an atmosphere replicator then batman walks up to him wearing a bat space suit and pummels him giving a badass speech about how he's no more a god than the earths tiniest ant
The only problem is getting him inside a chamber that will no doubt have to have a door that seals shut airtight.
Damn, I think kryptonite would be much easier but no where near as badass

 

[roach]

Maybe if Snyder/WB/Cav/Affleck were all about twitter/instagram and social media...

I would hope this production would take on the marc web/singer approach to social media, but I fear that even if the players themselves did want to, the studio is all about their own marketing. I find it pretty remarkable what Dwayne Johnson has done for the awareness and media attention for hercules. If it was up to paramount, this recent trailer would have been the first most any one had seen of it. Yet folks like Grace Randolph is talking about how hyped it has been....

Then again there is Gal.

Dwayne Johnson's tweets were very much a part of the marketing scheme of the movie. He tweeted pics and what not but we still didn't get our first glimpse at him until the Paramount put it out.
http://news.yahoo.com/dwayne-johnso...-070312867.html;_ylt=AwrTWVUjZUlT.DMAh73QtDMD

"Paramount, MGM and I made a pact," he added. "We wanted to make a massive global and entertaining movie while doing all we could to never reveal the actual look of Hercules."

 

[Fallen Angel]

I'm ready to go two summers away or not, luckily my wife allowed me to grace our vehicle with such epicness. I keep thinking about the first footage well see and how exciting it'll be for the fan population.

Where is this from dude?.