BvS All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - Part 46

[DA_Champion]

how do you imagine he'll go about doing that?.

It's really not difficult for Batman to replicate the Kryptonian atmosphere.

The world builder in the Indian Oceans was spewing gas left and right. The composition of that gas would have been measured, precisely and accurately measured, by various space satellites that monitor the Earth's atmosphere.

Does Wayne Industries build those satellites?

Problem solved.

 

[Marvin]

Mos has had a weird effect on me I'm a live and let live guy when it comes to movies. But I get so heated when I hear anyone talk crap about man of steel.
The biggest reason is because of the effect it had on my girlfriend of 6 years. She's a prude when it comes to comic books (I know but I love her anyway) and after we came out of the theater she was BLOWN away and wanted more back story on my main man supes. So she actually read a comic! Swear to
God probably the first comic she ever picked up (birthright).
And that's what it's all about, shaking the public and sharing this great character universe with those who are unfamiliar with it. Giving them the joy we nerds get. Brings a tear to my eye

Thanks for sharing this. So rare we actually get some feedback from the GA. I think that's an example of what the rest of the world thought. I remember Harry Knowles commenting on his dad's reaction. Seems utterly genuine.

I also think that one of the reasons MOS didn't make even more money was due to people's contempt and fatigue of what they thought the character was prior to mos. I think with these DVD sales and general audience awareness, the MOS sequel is going to exist in a very different world when it comes to how viable the brand is.

Me too, actually. Superman can come off very untouchable at times, like a card-board cut-out. This one felt real and lived-in. I think a lot of that also came from Henry's mannerisms for the character. It made me think "this is a guy, not a legend just yet."

I try imagining Synder pulling this(at lois' expense of course). Maybe he would have convinced some more people that he get's the character. With the addition of his film we have a classic case of 'one of these is not like the other'. Maybe he'll get it next time..shudder.
[YT]JwUhTlnOKh8[/YT]That magical feeling that was missing perhaps...jokes aside, watching that stuff(returns), the music, the posturing, the hair.. it's like a parody man I can't...

My favorite thing about MoS is how the various non leads are finally presented in a superman film. Every other cbm(with the exception of people directed by Sam Raimi), have been given the opportunity to act like they aren't in a willy wonka movie, bout time.
Years and years of that conditioning and they drop mos and expect it not to be divisive. They could write psyche papers on this.

"MoS for me was like picking up a comic book right now, vs picking one up in a bin printed 54 years ago." That would have been my RT caption.

 

[John Lambert]

We're almost to Part 50 guys! Can we get there before filming starts!?

It might be hard. The word around town here (I work in Detroit and live in the suburbs, although the part of Detroit I work in might need to be fixed up to look like post-Terraforming Machine wrecked Metropolis), is that Cavill is here, and Affleck will be here very soon (in fact, he might have arrived, I remember they were saying Jennifer Garner said he was about to come, but I don't remember if he was coming Friday or Monday).

 

[ЯɘvlveR]

someone with better photoshop skills than I should combine these two.

 

[D.P.]

Yes, it's like someone said earlier..other heroes like Thor or Hulk are also hugely powerful and to an extent invulnerable without needing a weakness like kryptonite. I'd rather ditch this kryptonite weakness and raise the level of the rest of his rogues gallery. It would be different if kryptonite was something that was powerful enough to affect most superpowered beings.

So where will he fight these new god-like rogues? Will they mutually agree to fight in the desert at a designated time so fanboys won't complain about the collateral damage? I think it becomes Dragonball Z once you do that and it's no longer Superman.

To whoever mentioned Thor/Hulk/Surfer being OP and having no weaknesses fails to realize that while Marvel has OP characters, they are almost always written to have faults to be more relatable to the reader, whereas DC characters like Superman in particular have been shown to be so uber powerful that plot devices like Kryptonite are necessary to bring him down a notch.

This is actually why there is a divide between Marvel and DC fans because for some people it's easier to relate to Peter Parker being a broke student than Batman being a billionaire who is prepared for everything.

Thor's achille's heel is his arrogance, Hulk's is his lack of intelligence/humanity/control when he transforms, Surfer's is his naivete. Clark's is? Even Marvel's Superman (Sentry) is mentally unstable I believe.

Forget RT scores and critical mumbo jumbo and Marvel vs DC....this is the one thing that matters when it comes to Man of Steel....did people enjoy it? Did it make new Superman fans?

[YT]DXAva_gO8Qk[/YT]

Funny, because it made a Superman fan out of me. I was your traditional "He's boring/OP/Boy Scout" type of guy, and Zack Snyder made me buy into the character like no comic ever has before.

It's a bit weird for me to see lifelong fans of Superman trash MOS because of whatever preconcieved idea they built up in their mind about who Clark should be when this is the same movie that won people like me over.

 

[John Lambert]

I will say this, even though it won't happen in the unlikely event Cap 3 and MoS 2 open same weekend MoS 2 will have something that not only Cap 3 won't have but also the Avengers 2 won't have - a 75 year build up. It wouldn't even surprise me if the advertising campaign is purely about the history of the two characters. The build up to the Avengers has always been about the present, with all do respect to the characters they don't have the same history in the public conscious that Superman and Batman have, they are very much present day characters in that regard. If I was WB I'd advertise the crap out of that history for this film.

The problem is having a 75-year-build up is a two edged sword. Superman has to be retooled for the 21st century. I think they did a very good job at that in MOS. Still, having the long history makes things difficult at times. Some critics and viewers react negatively if you do not follow the form of past films, while others will attack if you do. And a times the same viewer will attack from both sides.

 

[MrsKent26]

Thanks for sharing this. So rare we actually get some feedback from the GA. I think that's an example of what the rest of the world thought. I remember Harry Knowles commenting on his dad's reaction. Seems utterly genuine.

I also think that one of the reasons MOS didn't make even more money was due to people's contempt and fatigue of what they thought the character was prior to mos. I think with these DVD sales and general audience awareness, the MOS sequel is going to exist in a very different world when it comes to how viable the brand is.

I find it intriguing that a similar thing happened with BB. It did ok at the box office, but did very well on DVD. MOS did better at the box office and I'm not sure how its DVD sales compare to BB's, but the pattern is similar. It makes me wonder if the sequel will continue the pattern. Maybe the increased Hype will lead to another Dark Knight. I know I shouldn't think like that because it breeds lofty expectations...but it would be continuing the trend of history repeating itself.

I try imagining Synder pulling this(at lois' expense of course). Maybe he would have convinced some more people that he get's the character. With the addition of his film we have a classic case of 'one of these is not like the other'. Maybe he'll get it next time..shudder.
[YT]JwUhTlnOKh8[/YT]That magical feeling that was missing perhaps...jokes aside, watching that stuff(returns), the music, the posturing, the hair.. it's like a parody man I can't...

My favorite thing about MoS is how the various non leads are finally presented in a superman film. Every other cbm(with the exception of people directed by Sam Raimi), have been given the opportunity to act like they aren't in a willy wonka movie, bout time.
Years and years of that conditioning and they drop mos and expect it not to be divisive. They could write psyche papers on this.

"MoS for me was like picking up a comic book right now, vs picking one up in a bin printed 54 years ago." That would have been my RT caption.

What Singer did in SR is a parody at times. It was a parody of Reeve's Superman and it was...unwelcome on my part. He may have called it a vague sequel, blah, blah....but it came off parody-esque at times.

However, there was (and still is) a number of folks that think Donner/Reeve = Superman. So, I wouldn't doubt that MOS would have been received better by some if it had included a couple Reeve parodies like SR. I also think some folks would have appreciated the willy-wonka-esque background humans, especially in the case of Clark's childhood. People seemed to have an issue with him being bullied, etc (not me because I truly think that's how an alien/freak would be treated).

I would enjoy your RT caption. Apt indeed.

 

[Kane52630]

Spoiler

 

[John Lambert]

I honestly I don't want them to introduce Kryptonite at all. it's the most convenient, easy and abused way of harming Superman. but if they are going to use it, it should somehow de-power him a bit but not completely, unlike in Superman Returns where it made Supes a complete wuss yet he was able to lift a huge Kryptonite island. it's very contradicting.

Kryptonite has depower in ways required by the plot and recovery has happened at the speed of plot. "Lois and Clark" had Clark depowered for over a day when first exposed, and later he was shot with a Kryptonite bullet and recovered enough in a half hour or less to stop a car.

If they are going to introduce Kryptonite, I want it to have consistent effects. If it depowers Superman, I prefer he looses his power for an extended, consistent time. That is where Lois and others helping Superman step in.

One thing they got right on Lois and Clark, was even when depowered, Clark was not totally incompetent.

 

[John Lambert]

but in Man of Steel he's not that powerful compared to Returns, human weapons can disorientate him. unless he becomes more powerful in the sequel which seems likely. also not every Superman villain use kryptonite or magic to hurt him. all I'm saying the use of krytonite is so abused it's boring already, for some reason there's always a weapon made out of it like there's an unlimited supply of the green rock in Walmart.

In L&C villains were able to use sound and light against Superman. Then there was the Quantum Destroyer, a high-powered gun, that Luthor bought from a government agent. They never even went into why the government was building it, and it was unclear if it was really a threat to Superman.

Especially in the MoS universe, I could see the government trying to build a weapon that could be used against Superman.

 

[Fallen Angel]

Dude you really really love Lois and Clark TV show don't you?

 

[DA_Champion]

I love it too.

 

[Fallen Angel]

I like it as well could you imagine a Darkseid or a Doomsday,Brainiac on that show though?.

 

[DA_Champion]

I like it as well could you imagine a Darkseid or a Doomsday,Brainiac on that show though?.

Actually, they were in a decent position to do the death of superman arc.

Doomsday himself is a boring villain. What is awesome about that story is the second act: funeral for a friend / world without superman.

 

[John Lambert]

And Bizarro. And Lobo. And Parasite. And Atomic Skull. And certain versions of Brainiac. And Mongul. And Cyborg Superman. Among plenty of others.

In L&C they had Deathstroke give Superman a run for his money.

Still, a Super-powered villain is harder to create than a villain with Kryptonite.

As long as we do not have unlimited supplies of Kryptonite, it is acceptable.

 

[Fallen Angel]

Actually, they were in a decent position to do the death of superman arc.

Doomsday himself is a boring villain. What is awesome about that story is the second act: funeral for a friend / world without superman.

Doomsday is a killing machine he's not an interesting villain. He's just became famous for killing Supes. I agree though World without Superman is great part of the story.

 

[Iceman]

So where will he fight these new god-like rogues? Will they mutually agree to fight in the desert at a designated time so fanboys won't complain about the collateral damage? I think it becomes Dragonball Z once you do that and it's no longer Superman.

To whoever mentioned Thor/Hulk/Surfer being OP and having no weaknesses fails to realize that while Marvel has OP characters, they are almost always written to have faults to be more relatable to the reader, whereas DC characters like Superman in particular have been shown to be so uber powerful that plot devices like Kryptonite are necessary to bring him down a notch.

This is actually why there is a divide between Marvel and DC fans because for some people it's easier to relate to Peter Parker being a broke student than Batman being a billionaire who is prepared for everything.

Thor's achille's heel is his arrogance, Hulk's is his lack of intelligence/humanity/control when he transforms, Surfer's is his naivete. Clark's is? Even Marvel's Superman (Sentry) is mentally unstable I believe.

Those weaknesses don't actually lead to lower level villains being able to hurt them lol. You can afford to be a bit arrogant and naïve when you're an almost invulnerable powerhouse with no physical weaknesses against far weaker foes (which is why they don't face foes who can't hurt them without some external plot device assist). Even if Hulk, Thor & Surfer were asleep those guys wouldn't be able to do any damage to them while any geek with a kryptonite stick can bring Superman to his knees. And obviously not all DC heroes are uber powerful or without personal flaws so I see your point to an extent on the Marvel/DC thing but don't think it's that relevant. Both of them have uber powerful characters, middle of the road guys (X-Men level I guess) and street level heroes and most are handled in ways that are appropriate for the characters and given foes who are on a similar level.

Anyway I just prefer the Supes stories without it, I don't have a problem with you liking kryptonite.

 

[DA_Champion]

The average rating (out of 10) is also flawed. It only averages reviews from reviewers who give a number grade. Outlets like say NYT, do not score a movie, just write a review, so they do not contribute to the average rating (out of 10). But atleast by reading you can gauge whether a review is positive or negative so the Tomatometer is counting just that, the percentage of reviews that are positive.

Metacritic is also problematic. They actually read the review and assign it a number grade ON THEIR OWN.

The best possible gauge of critical reaction can only come at the end of the year. The end of year critics polls and Top 10 lists are the best source of critical acclaim, as that is where the passion shines through. So true critical reaction, frankly is gauged only at the end of the year.

Exhibit A - Harry Potter 8 - 96% on RT, Average Rating 8.4, MC rating 87/100. You would think one of the best films of the year? Did not make the Top 50 in any of major critics poll of the year. Not even the Top 50 yeah.

Exhibit B - Mullholland Drive - 81% on RT, Average Rating 7.4, MC ratin 81/100. Nice positive reaction right? UNIVERSALLY hailed as a gigantic masterpiece, topped every single critics poll in 2001 as the best film of the year, top every critics poll in 2009 as the best film of the decade. Now regarded as one of the greatest films ever made.

So the end of the year showed us what critics really thought of Mulholland Drive and Harry Potter 8, their reviews did not.

So end of year lists are your best indicator. And even later, lists like Sight and Sound ( a poll run once every decade) gives you a broader view of how films have aged.

The problem with the sight and sound poll is that it's an open ballot. People vote with the knowledge that everybody else will know how they voted. That encourages people to vote for known classics rather than their genuine favourite movies ... they don't want to be embarrassed in polite company by voting for Pulp Fiction or Shawshank Redemption, for example, that would appear "Gauche".

This is the 2013 top-50 films of all time list:
http://www.bfi.org.uk/news/50-greatest-films-all-time

There are virtually no moves made after 1980, the only ones are In the Mood for Love (2000), Mullholland Drive (2001), Shoah (1985), Sátántangó (1994), Close-Up (1990), and Histoire du Cinema (1998).

So for the 33 year period 1980-2012, only six movies make the top fifty, or 12% of the total, in spite of it being spanning over 30% of cinematic history, and over 50% of the movies made.

There's no apology for this failure.

Note that elite opinion is a given era is often a failed model for predicting future classics. William Shakespeare was looked down upon in his time and even for a time after his death for making what we call "pop corn blockbusters that appeal to the masses" .... yet his works are considered a foundation of English literature, along with Chaucer and the King James Bible. In the 21st century, each of Jazz, Rock and Roll, and Rap music were looked down upon as inferior musical forms for an extended period. A lot of "intellectuals" still look down on rap music.

Where is the ultra-influential Star Wars in the Sight and Sound poll? At #171.

 

[113]

Dude you really really love Lois and Clark TV show don't you?

Teri Hatcher was the best Lois. Childhood crush.

 

[ЯɘvlveR]

what's wrong?

 

[113]

Those weaknesses don't actually lead to lower level villains being able to hurt them lol. You can afford to be a bit arrogant and naïve when you're an almost invulnerable powerhouse with no physical weaknesses against far weaker foes (which is why they don't face foes who can't hurt them without some external plot device assist). Even if Hulk, Thor & Surfer were asleep those guys wouldn't be able to do any damage to them while any geek with a kryptonite stick can bring Superman to his knees. And obviously not all DC heroes are uber powerful or without personal flaws so I see your point to an extent on the Marvel/DC thing but don't think it's that relevant. Both of them have uber powerful characters, middle of the road guys (X-Men level I guess) and street level heroes and most are handled in ways that are appropriate for the characters and given foes who are on a similar level.

Anyway I just prefer the Supes stories without it, I don't have a problem with you liking kryptonite.

This. I suppose the gimmick could be fine if used sparingly, but it rarely is. It's usually abused because writers don't like, or don't know how to write, Superman. It's a crutch, and a lazy one, and that's why I dislike its' use. As much as I love L&C, one of my pet peeves was the way that show abused Kryptonite as a plot device.

It's just one of those things, once you introduce it to the world writers end up going back to it again and again, and it just makes for awful storytelling. And like you said, none of those others heroes "weaknesses" if we can really call them that, are able to cripple those heroes. In many interpretations Supes just becomes completely incapacitated by the slightest scent of Kryptonite 100 yards away; it's nonsensical, even by comic standards.

 

[Black Narcissus]

Maybe if Snyder/WB/Cav/Affleck were all about twitter/instagram and social media...

I would hope this production would take on the marc web/singer approach to social media, but I fear that even if the players themselves did want to, the studio is all about their own marketing. I find it pretty remarkable what Dwayne Johnson has done for the awareness and media attention for hercules. If it was up to paramount, this recent trailer would have been the first most any one had seen of it. Yet folks like Grace Randolph is talking about how hyped it has been....

Then again there is Gal.

Gal will definitely post a group pic. I can bet money on it.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

Gal will definitely post a group pic. I can bet money on it.

but not before she is warned by a group of WB's ninjas

 

[Masone]

This. I suppose the gimmick could be fine if used sparingly, but it rarely is. It's usually abused because writers don't like, or don't know how to write, Superman. It's a crutch, and a lazy one, and that's why I dislike its' use. As much as I love L&C, one of my pet peeves was the way that show abused Kryptonite as a plot device.

It's just one of those things, once you introduce it to the world writers end up going back to it again and again, and it just makes for awful storytelling. And like you said, none of those others heroes "weaknesses" if we can really call them that, are able to cripple those heroes. In many interpretations Supes just becomes completely incapacitated by the slightest scent of Kryptonite 100 yards away; it's nonsensical, even by comic standards.

I wonder what the rage would have been like if the Kryptonian weapons could pierce the skin and kill Kryptonians under the yellow sun, and if instead of snapping Zod's neck, Superman cut his throat with Faora's blade.

 

[Masone]

I think weapons made of Krypton that can hurt Kryptonians is better than the crippling Kryptonite. So he still has all of his powers and there is no sick effect when he's around the weapon, but he's vulnerable to being stabbed and whatnot because the terrain blades can hurt and potentially kill him. So let's say someone stabs him with a Krypton blade, it'll be just like a human getting stabbed. If it's a non fatal stab, he takes a long time to heal and it affects him just like a human with a stab wound. If it's a fatal stab, well, it's a fatal stab and he dies(like getting stabbed in the heart, or having his throat cut).

Did Faora have her blade on her when she got sucked into the PZ?