BvS All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 63

[KRYPTON INC.]

So lets just say they are humans. How do you realistically portray that? How can they exist underwater? Talk to creatures underwater? Do the whole telepathy thing with the creatures? Because that aint human. That's what happens in the comic books.

When it comes to Aquaman - I want an athletic swimmer type body, blonde hair, and orange and dark green costume. And somebody who is Aquaman - not some Goyer-invented spin upon the character.

The same way you have a totally human looking alien that flys and emits beams of heat from his eyes. YOU JUST DO. You answered most of your questions, btw. They have telepathy because they live underwater, and adaptation or genetic engineered ability (since, you know, ancient Atlantis was supposed to be highly advanced, or didn't you know that?), and they need to be incredibly durable and strong to survive the deep Oceanic pressure. They started out as a human race but have developed along a different path since Atlantis sunk, according to DC lore as I remember it, like 10,000 years ago. Even if my dates are off, umm... the lion's share of what I just described is Aquaman 101.

 

[zryson]

Mos didn't go through any "pains" to explain everything. They explained some things, but not to any painstaking degree.

And again...magic, I guess.

Magic can be an interesting element but it also has to have a basis in logic so the audience buy it. This is the problem with the whole imagine this really happened in a real world context from Man of Steel. Veer too much, and people will be like huh?

 

[zryson]

The same way you have a totally human looking alien that flys and emits beams of heat from his eyes. YOU JUST DO. You answered most of your questions, btw. They have telepathy because they live underwater, and adaptation or genetic engineered ability (since, you know, ancient Atlantis was supposed to be highly advanced, or didn't you know that?), and they need to be incredibly durable and strong to survive the deep Oceanic pressure. They started out as a human race but have developed along a different path since Atlantis sunk, according to DC lore as I remember it, like 10,000 years ago. Even if my dates are off, umm... the lion's share of what I just described is Aquaman 101.

You just do. Really? Bit weak. Taking that logic its like the Invisible Plane with Wonder Woman. Its invisible and yet people can see her sitting in it. That was never explained if I remember.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Magic can be an interesting element but it also has to have a basis in logic so the audience buy it. This is the problem with the whole imagine this really happened in a real world context from Man of Steel. Veer too much, and people will be like huh?

How much has fantasy magic ever been explained in any film it's been featured in? How exactly, and I mean EXACTLY, do any of the spells work in a POTTER film? Was it ever, in a nuts and bolts ways broken down, or did the audience just buy it, face value? Just as they bought into Superman's powers, that frankly, fly, LITERALLY, in the face of any known scientific laws.

But, I feel you KNOW all this.

 

[zryson]

How much has fantasy magic ever been explained in any film it's been featured in? How exactly, and I mean EXACTLY, do any of the spells work in a POTTER film? Was it ever, in a nuts and bolts ways broken down, or did the audience just buy it, face value? Just as they bought into Superman's powers, that frankly, fly, LITERALLY, in the face of any known scientific laws.

But, I feel you KNOW all this.

If they are going to explode this universe by introducing many characters, they need to explain the basis of why they are there and where they came from and why nobody has heard of them before. That's what I am saying. It has to have some weight to it.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

You just do. Really? Bit weak. Taking that logic its like the Invisible Plane with Wonder Woman. Its invisible and yet people can see her sitting in it. That was never explained if I remember.

How deeply has superpowers in any film adaptation of superheroes ever actually been? Did we get a full explanation of how, say, Cyclops' visor worked in the first, second, or third X-MEN film? Did they go into how Summers absorbs solar energy, how his optic blast is a force beam, how ruby quartz, for some reason holds the blast back against all the known laws of physics? Did any of that stop the audience from going, "Oh, his power is eye blasts, and he needs the visor. Neat"?

You are being pedantic just to be so I suspect.

 

[zryson]

How deeply has superpowers in any film adaptation of superheroes ever actually been? Did we get a full explanation of how, say, Cyclops' visor worked in the first, second, or third X-MEN film? Did they go into how Summers absorbs solar energy, how his optic blast is a force beam, how ruby quartz, for some reason holds the blast back against all the known laws of physics? Did any of that stop the audience from going, "Oh, his power is eye blasts, and he needs the visor. Neat"?

You are being pedantic just to be so I suspect.

Spare me the mind-reading and stick to topic please. As for other heroes, I'm not talking about them. This is the DCU. Not the MU.

 

[Broseph44]

Magic can be an interesting element but it also has to have a basis in logic so the audience buy it. This is the problem with the whole imagine this really happened in a real world context from Man of Steel. Veer too much, and people will be like huh?

You just do. Really? Bit weak. Taking that logic its like the Invisible Plane with Wonder Woman. Its invisible and yet people can see her sitting in it. That was never explained if I remember.

Your problem is that you for some reason need everything explained to you. And for some reason everything needs to have a meaning. You're basically creating up problems in your own mind. Very glad I don't think the way you do. Or watching any movie would be too much for me to take.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

If they are going to explode this universe by introducing many characters, they need to explain the basis of why they are there and where they came from and why nobody has heard of them before. That's what I am saying. It has to have some weight to it.

And with a few tweaks, frankly all of the explanations and rationales can and most likely will be adapted from the comics, which you claim is what you want, the characters from the books and their world. What I've described in my posts is just that. And it can fit into what was presented in MOS, because just as humans in that world had never had contact or confirmation of fantasy alien life, so too have they been unaware about the Atlanteans and the Amazons, because of the reasons I already listed.

 

[Broseph44]

And with a few tweaks, frankly all of the explanations and rationales can and most likely will be adapted from the comics, which you claim is what you want, the characters from the books and their world. What I've described in my posts is just that. And it can fit into what was presented in MOS, because just as humans in that world had never had contact or confirmation of fantasy alien life, so too have they been unaware about the Atlanteans and the Amazons, because of the reasons I already listed.

Bingo.

 

[zryson]

Your problem is that you for some reason need everything explained to you. And for some reason everything needs to have a meaning. You're basically creating up problems in your own mind. Very glad I don't think the way you do. Or watching any movie would be too much for me to take.

What I am saying is that these are new heroes to the big screen. They need to be explained. Yes its been explained in comic books over the years (well not everything) but some of these heroes are new to the big screen. And yeah if they want them to work, give them their due. Its not too much to ask for the new movie.

 

[D.P.]

So lets just say they are humans. How do you realistically portray that? How can they exist underwater? Talk to creatures underwater? Do the whole telepathy thing with the creatures? Because that aint human. That's what happens in the comic books.

When it comes to Aquaman - I want an athletic swimmer type body, blonde hair, and orange and dark green costume. And somebody who is Aquaman - not some Goyer-invented spin upon the character.

I love the implication that everything you disagree with gets automatically attributed to Goyer while knowing absolutely nothing about the creative decision making that is going into this film.

What I am saying is that these are new heroes to the big screen. They need to be explained. Yes its been explained in comic books over the years (well not everything) but some of these heroes are new to the big screen. And yeah if they want them to work, give them their due. Its not too much to ask for the new movie.

What makes you so adamant that they won't be explained?

Do you need your food cut up into little pieces as well?

 

[zryson]

I love the implication that everything you disagree with gets attributed to Goyer automatically while knowing absolutely nothing about the creative decision making that is going into this film.

Goyer and Snyder are hugely important to this film. What they say carries alot of weight with what happens.

 

[D.P.]

Goyer and Snyder are hugely important to this film. What they say carries alot of weight with what happens.

That's not the point and you know it's not. You are a spin master to the highest degree.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

What I am saying is that these are new heroes to the big screen. They need to be explained. Yes its been explained in comic books over the years (well not everything) but some of these heroes are new to the big screen. And yeah if they want them to work, give them their due. Its not too much to ask for the new movie.

Of course there is going to be an explanation of things. What are you going on about exactly? You want these characters to reflect the comics in one post, but then you go and say they have to go with a totally different idea, then change the subject to something else when it's pointed out that the rationales that work in the comics with minor adjustments, obviously, can work on the big screen.

Again, I suspect you are being contrarian and pedantic just to be so.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

If they are going to explode this universe by introducing many characters, they need to explain the basis of why they are there and where they came from and why nobody has heard of them before.

I imagine that they're building off of the notion that select members of the population will have already been privy to the existence of these characters. Flashback sequences and such will likely be used to bring us, i.e., audience members, up to speed a la Snyder's Watchmen.

 

[Mysteryman]

Goyer and Snyder are hugely important to this film. What they say carries alot of weight with what happens.

Are you saying that they are two important elements to the worldwide success of MOS ?
If so. I agree with you

 

[zryson]

That's not the point and you know it's not. You are a spin master to the highest degree.

Remember Man of Steel? Remember the interviews? "We’re approaching ‘Superman’ as if it weren’t a comic book movie, as if it were real… I adore the Donner films. Absolutely adore them. It just struck me that there was an idealist quality to them that may or may not work with today’s audience. It just struck me that if Superman really existed in the world, first of all, this story would be a story about first contact." (the quote was by Goyer.)

So... this new movie presents all these other superheroes (Aquaman and Wonder Woman) which are at the core steeped in mythology. Now they just didnt appear overnight and came from nowhere. They have been on Earth many years. So why has nobody heard of them before? With all the technology in the world it would somewhat defy belief.

Then again, maybe this movie changes the premise from Man of Steel - its less imagine this was real, and just embrace the fantasy. But again when you are doing a sequel its good to be consistent.

 

[lanesrader]

If they are going to explode this universe by introducing many characters, they need to explain the basis of why they are there and where they came from and why nobody has heard of them before. That's what I am saying. It has to have some weight to it.

Same way no one knew about Superman before Zod came to Earth. He never really showed his powers, no one outside of Smallville knew about him. Then he showed himself to the world and that's probably what leads the rest of the super powered characters to show up.

Atlanteans and Amazons are probably known to the people but are seen as just stories and myths.

 

[zryson]

Are you saying that they are two important elements to the worldwide success of MOS ?
If so. I agree with you

Yes that's what I meant. So we agree!

 

[dhandler01]

Atlantis sank thousands of years ago...it has been a myth ever since but since that predates most written language and since they fear man they rarely come to the surface. Since there is little to no contact, they are not well known outside of old sea stories about mermaids and such.

Wow that took all of ten seconds and it works. The rest can be explained as the story progresses...you know...like in every other movie ever made.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

So... this new movie presents all these other superheroes (Aquaman and Wonder Woman) which are at the core steeped in mythology. Now they just didnt appear overnight and came from nowhere. They have been on Earth many years. So why has nobody heard of them before? With all the technology in the world it would somewhat defy belief.

Then again, maybe this movie changes the premise from Man of Steel - its less imagine this was real, and just embrace the fantasy. But again when you are doing a sequel its good to be consistent.

Every thing in a superhero universe defies belief and the laws of science, no matter how well or poorly the rationale is that is used to suspend disbelief is constructed.

And again, what is so unbelievable that the Atlanteans and Amazons have access to power beyond the current human capabilities? The Amazons have the power of their gods and the advances in technology that have been developing on their island for thousands of years. The Atlanteans are a culture from the pre-sunken Atlantean Empire from 10,000 years ago that are hidden beneath the waves at the bottom of the fraking Ocean, so both are protected in ways that from a narrative standpoint, make sense so as not to be general knowledge of the public. This is not something the audience will have a hard time wrapping it's heads around.

 

[zryson]

Atlantis sank thousands of years ago...it has been a myth ever since but since that predates most written language and since they fear man they rarely come to the surface. Since there is little to no contact, they are not well known outside of old sea stories about mermaids and such.

Wow that took all of ten seconds and it works. The rest can be explained as the story progresses...you know...like in every other movie ever made.

So Atlantis was destroyed and sank. There have been legends about it ever since (which people say happened or thereabouts.) But they wouldnt be human beings would they? They would either have alien tech or be aliens/descendants from aliens to survive underwater. Likewise if they make them human - why can they only do what they do and none of the rest of the human race can? Why are they different?

 

[KillerMcQueen]

So Atlantis was destroyed and sank. There have been legends about it ever since (which people say happened or thereabouts.) But they wouldnt be human beings would they? They would either have alien tech or be aliens/descendants from aliens to survive underwater. Likewise if they make them human - why can they only do what they do and none of the rest of the human race can? Why are they different?

Because they live at the bottom of the ocean their bodies are used to withstanding enormous pressure caused by the weight of the ocean, so when they go on land their strength and durability seems inhuman, they've evolved slightly away from humans over thousands of years. This explanation has been used in the comics from time to time if I recall correctly. But even that isn't really necessary in the introduction movie, he's aquaman, the audience will just accept that he's superpowered.

 

[Black Narcissus]

Why are y'all wasting your time explaining stuff to zryson? He going' to see the damn movie anyway.

When you see Supes flying his ass off in the damn air....explanation goes out the window.