Arrow Arrow General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 27

[metaphysician]

Vigilante is an anti-hero, not a villain. He has not been revealed yet, but comic fans have a good idea who he is, unless they deviate from the comics.

I can't agree with this. They've shown him to be actively indifferent to collateral damage, to the point of already having killed innocent bystanders. He's also tried to outright murder Team Arrow, and would have succeeded if not for Ragman. The Vigilante is a flat out villain. He's just a lesser and unrelated one to Prometheus.

 

[metaphysician]

Re: Artemis, I think the intent is not that Evelyn is stupid, but that she lacks a solid moral core. She rejected and betrayed Ollie not because she has moral issues with his homicidal background, but because she views him as a pious hypocrite. Which is still a very unflattering plotline, but its not the same as stupidity.

Re: Laurel, before people get too caught up in what her return means, lets wait and see whether she actually *has* returned. Especially since its nigh unto certain that her appearing *right now* is connected to Prometheus' plots. I would say its much more likely she's either an impostor or Black Siren than that Laurel Lance, Black Canary, has actually came back from the dead.

 

[Slade W]

I can't agree with this. They've shown him to be actively indifferent to collateral damage, to the point of already having killed innocent bystanders. He's also tried to outright murder Team Arrow, and would have succeeded if not for Ragman. The Vigilante is a flat out villain. He's just a lesser and unrelated one to Prometheus.

You are probably right. It is hard to tell the difference between the two at times (ie villain and anti-hero). Lots of villains these days want to kill people and destroy things in order to do good. Like you said, maybe I only view him as an anti-hero because Prometheus comes off as much nastier, and makes Vigilante seem less "evil". There are times where the difference between anti-hero and villain can come down to simply how the writer wants a character to be viewed, by the fans and other characters. Vegeta, for example, was viewed by lots as an anti-hero in the Cell and Buu saga, even though he killed people before and during those sagas and played a big part in Cell and Buu achieving full power. I think the main reason he kept being presented and treated as an anti-hero was because he was cool and people liked him, no matter what he did. He was a character people kept making excuses for, no matter what he did.

Maybe that is a bad example and I am completely wrong about this. This is an interesting topic IMO and something I would have to think about lol. There are also times where character that fit the description "hero", are called anti-heroes to make them come across more edgy and dark.

 

[Broseph44]

Same for me, here's to hoping they can stay on track for the second half of the season.

Hope so

 

[Thome216]

Re: Laurel, before people get too caught up in what her return means, lets wait and see whether she actually *has* returned. Especially since its nigh unto certain that her appearing *right now* is connected to Prometheus' plots. I would say its much more likely she's either an impostor or Black Siren than that Laurel Lance, Black Canary, has actually came back from the dead.

The thing is They (They being the creators behind the show) have all dropped hints that Flashpoint probably has something to do with 'her' return and that she's 'alive and well.'

Unless they're punking us...

 

[Avenging Angel]

I am so proud the show is returning to its roots. Glad to have Laurel back and the redemption for Felicity, a big finally. I had a feeling there would be something up the writers sleeve to leave off a mysterious trail for S5b. They just need to focus their plots and it'll pick up where the first 2 seasons left off in terms of quality. I could see why Stephen expressed such dismay for S4. I wish Grant could vocalize the same comments on his own show because Flash was really suffering - but it picked up steam after 3x07 to 3x09 - while Arrow is booming. The demise of Olicity was great for us all.

 

[mariajoycemerry]

The way all the powers being united to defeat alliance that's shows they all are united whenever someone needs anyone.

 

[Syncos]

I can't agree with this. They've shown him to be actively indifferent to collateral damage, to the point of already having killed innocent bystanders. He's also tried to outright murder Team Arrow, and would have succeeded if not for Ragman. The Vigilante is a flat out villain. He's just a lesser and unrelated one to Prometheus.

I think they're both tools to relate Oliver back to his season 1 past.

I mean, just look at the bodies of like bodyguards and employees he murdered of people he was trying to get to in season 1. They were certainly collateral damage. I think they're going to an extreme with Vigilante to really hit home the contrast, but that's certainly why Vigilante is in the show.

Especially in a season where Prometheus seems to be punishing Ollie for season 1 actions.

 

[edwardc]

So is it safe to say that Prometheus is either Roy or Tommy.

 

[DawnWarrior]

I'm not going to mince words here: I want to see Team Arrow destroy Vigilante. The amount they've built him up in just a couple episodes, and seeing him routinely mop the floor with the whole gang and escape again and again, I want the definitive showdown to be a decisive victory for Oliver and the gang. I want all of this guy's weapons and tactics and ruthlessness pitted against against Oliver's experience, careful planning, and of course teamwork. And then it ends with the gang taping him to a flagpole, unmasked, his gear chopped to pieces at his feet, and the words "KILLERS NOT WELCOME" grafitti'd on his bare chest for all the world to see, to send a message to all the other punks with guns: the streets of Star City belong to the Green Arrow. I want to see Oliver and the gang win.

 

[Batsfan1]

Turns out, good and evil, nice and mean, it's not black and white.
Humans are complicated. Rules are fabricated as a way of control.

So much of what we do is conditioning. People kill all the time for "the greater good" or what they believe to be the greater good. Wars are fought because of it. In most cases, that greater good is no more valid than the other sides greater good.

Are all soldiers "bad people"?

People are flawed. There is no person who is all good, or all bad. You may think you are. You may try to be. But life is shades of grey.

Oliver is not a "bad person" he's a flawed hero. He's made mistakes, and carries the burden for them. Thinks about them constantly. Is probably more hard on himself than he should be. That's what makes him a good person.

Soldiers don't murder. They kill in defense. All good or all bad isn't relevant to his actions. People aren't conditioning, they're choices and we're all responsible for our own. Everything is black and white. Humans puke out the bile of grey morality to justify their bad actions. Oliver's never carried any burden for those he's murdered not connected to him personally or shown true remorse and guilt for them. Oliver from Smallville was a flawed hero, Oliver in Arrow is a serial murderer. Have a very great day!

God bless you all!

 

[Lencho01]

The DCTV Trinity

 

[metaphysician]

So is it safe to say that Prometheus is either Roy or Tommy.

The answer is "No, it isn't." What would make you think for a second that either idea makes the slightest bit of sense?

 

[Slade W]

Someone on twitter made a gif of a floating Arrow like the original Batman series.

https://***********/BigRockDJ/status/807343851224649728

 

[kenderos]

Watching this episode reminded me of how much I've missed Ollie's no nonsense approach to the Hood in Season 1. Always one step ahead and isn't second guessing himself or being questioned by someone inferior to himself. The guys caused a lot of deaths and price gouged a ton more. Malcolm is still owed a visit from the Hood imo and everything bad that has happened to Ollie is a result of Merlyn tanking him from behind the scenes. Amell is seriously great when they let him do his thing.

Tommy or Roy have 0 reason to keep their identities hidden from Team Arrow, The character has to be tied to the Flashbacks and supposedly unrevealed by the mid season break. Did The Dark Archer ever flip like that? I don't see how this could be the real Laurel either, I actually like Laurel minus a shaky season 2 where her drug problems and hate for the arrow went on way too long. Too bad because Tommy and Roy are great characters and Laurel was trending up. Nice to see Thea back... I hope Diggle isn't mia long because I thought we've already had this story this season.

The playing up minor character (WildDog) and forcing the cool ones (Ragman) to catch bullets in the background is always great. All of these storylines could have been done in season 2/3 with OG team Arrow and have much less effect now.

 

[Grommers]

Someone on twitter made a gif of a floating Arrow like the original Batman series.

https://***********/BigRockDJ/status/807343851224649728

https://www.facebook.com/stephenamell/videos/1232884106796854/

Much more than a floating arrow gif.

 

[Slade W]

https://www.facebook.com/stephenamell/videos/1232884106796854/

Much more than a floating arrow gif.

That is absolutely brilliant . Thank you for sharing that with me.

 

[Slade W]

 

[Loki882]

Re: Artemis, I think the intent is not that Evelyn is stupid, but that she lacks a solid moral core. She rejected and betrayed Ollie not because she has moral issues with his homicidal background, but because she views him as a pious hypocrite. Which is still a very unflattering plotline, but its not the same as stupidity.

Re: Laurel, before people get too caught up in what her return means, lets wait and see whether she actually *has* returned. Especially since its nigh unto certain that her appearing *right now* is connected to Prometheus' plots. I would say its much more likely she's either an impostor or Black Siren than that Laurel Lance, Black Canary, has actually came back from the dead.

Actually, that still makes her look really stupid. And yes, it is a very unflattering plotline.

As for Laurel, I don't think that anyone is dismissing the idea that she's an imposter (I'm certainly not). I think what people are saying, is that that'd be a really cheap/mean-spirited "made you look" on the showrunners part. "Hey a lot of you felt like we handled Laurel's death in a really crappy way last season. Well now we're fixing that and bringing her bac.....PSYCH!! She's actually an imposter working for the bad guy, after we just revealed that the OTHER female member of the team was a traitor working for the bad guy."

What's the point of that, you're just ticking people off for no good reason. You might as well have not brought her back at all in that case.

 

[Thome216]

If that is the case and this is just a psych-out, then I'd have to really consider no longer watching this show. I have to say that the only reason I started watching was because of Laurel and I'd like to see her story arc continue. But if it's just only 'reflections' of her, then I'll skip out.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Well KC hasn't been in Vancouver since filming aroumf ep10

Tvline talks Laurels return
https://www.facebook.com/tvline/videos/1477398688938735/ (starts around 10:00)

-Laurels return will be a 9 on the emotional scale
-"Laurel", who she is will be revealed
-Felicity will be skeptical about "Laurel" while Oliver will be happy to have his old friend back
-"Laurel" will have an emotional resonance for Felicity and Oliver

Just hearing that Felicity will be skeptical 100% confirms my theory for me. Felicity is very rarely, if at all ever allowed to be wrong in Arrow. This will be used to have Oliver do a whole "shouldve gone with your instinct"

 

[TheRedWraith]

The thing is They (They being the creators behind the show) have all dropped hints that Flashpoint probably has something to do with 'her' return and that she's 'alive and well.'

Unless they're punking us...

If she truly is returning for real they could be Jason Todding her, i.e. instead of Superboy Prime punching the walls of reality Flashpoint happens and brings her back to life however long it is since she has died.

 

[Jedi Arrow]

Just hearing that Felicity will be skeptical 100% confirms my theory for me. Felicity is very rarely, if at all ever allowed to be wrong in Arrow. This will be used to have Oliver do a whole "shouldve gone with your instinct"

While I think you're probably right, I do at the same time seem to remember that Oliver proved Felicity wrong several times in S1-S2. And this season is wavering closer to those seasons than S3-S4. However, like I said, you're most likely correct. Felicity will be correct. But part of me hopes that even if she is, Oliver is right too in some way, in that (if this is Black Siren) she might be redeemable.

 

[Lencho01]

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[TheRedWraith]

I think the proper classification for Vigilante would be Anti-Villain.