BvS Ben Affleck IS Batman - Part 10

[MrMaooz]

Jim would make a good anything.

Even a good Benedict Cumberbatch?

 

[ThePhantasm]

Even a good Benedict Cumberbatch?

head explodes at this paradox

 

[DACrowe]

Coming to say this, since people seem a little more down on Conroy than usual...

Conroy for me will always be the definitive Batman voice. I don't think he can be topped. I realize that TDKT was a more mature story and technically "better", but my favorite interpretation of Batman was the Timm version. JLU/JL/BTAS, it's all my favorite for sure. It's the comics come to life, and I think/hope that comics feel can be more of an influence for the new Batman. I'm really hoping for a strong Arkham Games/BTAS influenced Batman this time around.

Well Arkham is kind of what I imagine Snyder will go for: an amalgamation of everything else. Arkham is heavily influenced by TAS (obviously), as well as the Nolan films, the Burton films, and I suspect the Frank Miller version of the character.

The city architecture could be right out of a Burton film, the rogue's gallery's inner-connected mayhem feels likes its from TAS (as do the voices), while the aesthetic of Batman, his relationship with the cops, and the "grittiness" of villain designs feels very Nolan influenced.

That is probably a good starting point for at least a mindset in the next one.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

^ If he pulls Arkham Batman from the games into the movies he'll have my respect. Bonus points if he demands Goyer's dialog and weaker points get rewritten by a strong screenwriter

 

[herolee10]

The ONLY aspect that I do not want them to take from the Arkham series games is Batman's unwillingness to let a villain die when they're supposed to.

Seriously, Batman is almost as responsible as the Joker is for the deaths that Joker has brought upon Gotham. Every time that Batman goes out of his way to save the Joker from falling to his death, when there are no innocents involved in the crossfire, it always ends with the Joker coming back to cause more trouble which ends up with him killing more people.

I don't care if Batman, in that version, has this thing about death where he can't let anyone die in front of him...the fact that he continues to save the life of the Joker or any other villain that can't be reformed makes Batman just as much of a murderer as those villains are whenever those said villains break out of prison and kill more people later on.

I don't even view Arkham's Batman as a hero...but more of a person who manages/controls chaos. He never let's it get to chaotic but he never does anything to stop it at its source whenever he can.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

^ I hated that he seemed almost as sad for the

Spoiler

Joker

to die as Jason Todd or

Spoiler

Talia.

Cradling the Joker is just cheesy.

 

[Boy Scout]

The ONLY aspect that I do not want them to take from the Arkham series games is Batman's unwillingness to let a villain die when they're supposed to.

Seriously, Batman is almost as responsible as the Joker is for the deaths that Joker has brought upon Gotham. Every time that Batman goes out of his way to save the Joker from falling to his death, when there are no innocents involved in the crossfire, it always ends with the Joker coming back to cause more trouble which ends up with him killing more people.

I don't care if Batman, in that version, has this thing about death where he can't let anyone die in front of him...the fact that he continues to save the life of the Joker or any other villain that can't be reformed makes Batman just as much of a murderer as those villains are whenever those said villains break out of prison and kill more people later on.

I don't even view Arkham's Batman as a hero...but more of a person who manages/controls chaos. He never let's it get to chaotic but he never does anything to stop it at its source whenever he can.

Imagine the Joker, an inch away from death, expecting Batman to go out of his way to save him because he's supposed to be the good guy. Now imagine Batman flipping him off and walking away. That would be hilarious.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

^ And yet, you don't have to save the people Joker poisons in the first AA game

 

[Jekecy]

The ONLY aspect that I do not want them to take from the Arkham series games is Batman's unwillingness to let a villain die when they're supposed to.

Seriously, Batman is almost as responsible as the Joker is for the deaths that Joker has brought upon Gotham. Every time that Batman goes out of his way to save the Joker from falling to his death, when there are no innocents involved in the crossfire, it always ends with the Joker coming back to cause more trouble which ends up with him killing more people.

I don't care if Batman, in that version, has this thing about death where he can't let anyone die in front of him...the fact that he continues to save the life of the Joker or any other villain that can't be reformed makes Batman just as much of a murderer as those villains are whenever those said villains break out of prison and kill more people later on.

I don't even view Arkham's Batman as a hero...but more of a person who manages/controls chaos. He never let's it get to chaotic but he never does anything to stop it at its source whenever he can.

Sounds like Jason Todd/Red Hood is more up your alley. This has been covered ad nauseum within the lore (especially these past few years). If you've experienced these stories and still cannot grasp or approve of Bruce's refusal to cross that line, I don't know how you can call yourself a fan of the character. It's indisputably his highest upheld tenet.

Bruce's constant seeking of redemption in others and the appreciation for human life is what makes him unique and intriguing as a conflicted hero. The persona was borne out of spilled blood, through gross negligence of others' livelihoods. Selective manslaughter is the worst thing that could happen to the character. This liberal application of what is supposed to be an absolute maxim, is honestly one of my biggest issues with Nolan's Batman. I detested every time they thought to bring up "the one rule", and so carelessly threw it by the wayside in the very same movie. I'd be horrified to see the same mistakes repeated with a new interpretation. If Batman can justify one death, he can continue on doing it for others. That's not the slippery slope I want this character to be put on.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

^ Yes. I want him to save EVERYONE. I feel like it's more than a rule. It's a compulsion.

It sounds weird, but if he were to override that compulsion and fight his urges to save people, he'd be breaking his rule.

 

[Jekecy]

^ Yes. I want him to save EVERYONE. I feel like it's more than a rule. It's a compulsion.

It sounds weird, but if he were to override that compulsion and fight his urges to save people, he'd be breaking his rule.

Indeed, rule seems to trivialize what it actually is; his nature. Given the circumstances which set him on this life path, I imagine there's only one thing he would hate more than murderers: becoming one himself. Whether it's through negligence or desire for an easy way out, turning into another "Joe Chill" (even for a moment) should be destructive and nearly world-ending for Bruce.

 

[ThePhantasm]

In order for the no-kill rule to really fly, you've got to have a Batman who is to some extent psychologically messed up, not just a normal guy / James Bond in a costume like Bale was.

 

[MrsKent26]

In order for the no-kill rule to really fly, you've got to have a Batman who is to some extent psychologically messed up, not just a normal guy / James Bond in a costume like Bale was.

That's a really interesting thought. Why do you think that?

 

[Jekecy]

In order for the no-kill rule to really fly, you've got to have a Batman who is to some extent psychologically messed up, not just a normal guy / James Bond in a costume like Bale was.

Why? In likely probability most people would take the same position. I'd attribute it more to an upbringing than actual trauma.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

^ I would say Bale was plenty messed up. But he channeled that darkness in audience into relatable human emotion (anger and passion.)

Nolan's a genius in that his Batman is a more sympathetic and humanized (I actually mean this in a dismissing way) than the more reserved character in comics. It's the ultimate GA Batman, I think.

I wouldn't be surprised if a more comic-accurate portrayal was looked upon more negatively, for not meeting the level of relatability as Bale's.

 

[MrsKent26]

^ Do you mean that comic Bats is a more disturbed, cold, and antisocial individual than Nolan portrayed that might not connect as well with the GA?

 

[ThePhantasm]

I don't mean a slobbering lunatic, I mean broken more along the lines of what Keaton was than Bale.

Ultimately the no-kill rule doesn't make sense. You'd have to kill the Joker to stop him from killing others. He keeps breaking out of Arkham, there's no way he is going to ever reform. The most sensible and pragmatic thing to do would be to end him, like Supes ended Zod (and Supes had better upbringing than Bruce!). But if you are psychologically broken so that you can't even pick up a gun and point it at someone because of your trauma, so that you can't even consider killing someone because of your horror at what you'd see yourself becoming, then it makes sense.

We are talking about a guy psychologically broken enough to dress as a bat, study the sciences, bring his body to peak condition, and enlist teenagers as his side-kicks. Of course he's still heroic. I'm not talking All-Star Batman insane. I'm just saying deep down that trauma fundamentally altered how he thinks of the world so that killing someone willfully would basically break his sanity.

 

[MrsKent26]

^ Sort of like a PTSD thing, in which killing/guns is his trigger? Interesting.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Its why Batman and the Joker are opposites. Both are psychologically broken by tragedy. Batman reacts by imposing rules upon himself and trying to prevent his trauma from befalling others. The Joker reacts by seeing the world as a meaningless chaotic joke and inflicting his trauma on others. Basically Bruce's parents death is the most meaningful moment in his life. The loss of their lives impacted him so greatly that he cannot bring himself to inflict loss of life on anyone else, no matter how evil. The Joker, on the other hand, came to view his own trauma as meaningless in order to cope with it. He inflicts loss of life on others joyfully, because it is ultimately meaningless to him - just a joke.

Its why Joker always wants Bats to kill him. That would bring him to Joker's side of the spectrum. But Batman will never do that. And Batman wants Joker to be redeemed, to come to his side of the spectrum. But Joker cannot do that. So they are literally deadlocked. Neither can overcome the other.

 

[MrsKent26]

Hmm. I could get on board with that sort of Batman. Sounds compelling, but not in the typical way.

It would also be interesting to see what happened when Bats and Joker realized they were in this sort of deadlocked situation.

 

[ThePhantasm]

For me the opening scene of Batman Beyond sums it up. Old Bats has a heart attack, has to point a gun at a goon to scare the goon away. It unnerves him so much that he says "never again" and hangs up his costume for good and basically sits around in the dark in Wayne Manor as a recluse. That's how emotionally devastated he was by that act.

 

[Jekecy]

We are talking about a guy psychologically broken enough to dress as a bat, study the sciences, bring his body to peak condition, and enlist teenagers as his side-kicks. Of course he's still heroic. I'm not talking All-Star Batman insane. I'm just saying deep down that trauma fundamentally altered how he thinks of the world so that killing someone willfully would basically break his sanity.

I'm sure this story has been done before, but I always felt a psychological thriller involving a baddie (the likes of Strange or Crane) who tricks Batman into thinking he murdered someone, would be an awesome twist on a superhero film. I feel like it's truly the most proficient way of defeating Batman; use his own psyche against him.

Hmm. I could get on board with that sort of Batman. Sounds compelling, but not in the typical way.

It would also be interesting to see what happened when Bats and Joker realized they were in this sort of deadlocked situation.

AKA what the third bat-film would've been like had Heath not passed. Bah, I always frustrate myself everytime I think of what could have transpired.

 

[MrsKent26]

For me the opening scene of Batman Beyond sums it up. Old Bats has a heart attack, has to point a gun at a goon to scare the goon away. It unnerves him so much that he says "never again" and hangs up his costume for good and basically sits around in the dark in Wayne Manor as a recluse. That's how emotionally devastated he was by that act.

That would have been a great way to bring about his recluse days in TDKR.

 

[ThePhantasm]

It would have indeed.

 

[MrsKent26]

Now I need a moment to mourn what could have been, lol.