BvS Ben Affleck IS Batman - Part 16

[I SEE SPIDEY]

I never indicated any of those things. The point is a character/story is only as strong as its writer and ideas. Bale is talented as hell, but I don't his direction for the role or the scripts he had were particularly well suited to take full advantage of what he could give.

A blanket statement like "Batman isn't King Lear" as Damon likened it, only applies to what has happened before. Fine. But what about moving forward? Again, why place an upper limit on anything?

I don't know if it's a limit so much as it's probably the truth that it's not King Lear. I'm not saying that I don't want an actor to be great in the role and better than Bale (who is a great actor but I'm not as love with him in the role as other people are) but I just don't see it as a super amazing role from an acting standpoint. I would love to be proven wrong and get a well written Batman played by an actor who blows my socks off.

 

[Jekecy]

I don't know if it's a limit so much as it's probably the truth that it's not King Lear.

Right, but again fiction is never concrete. There was a point where Batman was nothing more than a flashy pulp hero. I think we can all agree he has evolved far beyond that and has grown to be a fairly complex fictitious character on his own right.

Realize I'm only speaking in hypotheticals here. I'm not actually implying Batman would go down in history as one of the most intriguing literary figures. But I'd be remiss if I didn't point out how damaging it is to both artist and fan to merely settle for what's already there.

I'm not saying that I don't want an actor to be great in the role and better than Bale (who is a great actor but I'm not as love with him in the role as other people are) but I just don't see it as a super amazing role from an acting standpoint. I would love to be proven wrong and get a well written Batman played by an actor who blows my socks off.

Indeed. I don't know if I've ever been completely enthralled with any of the live-action Batmen, which probably contributes to the idea most actors have that it isn't a particularly hard role.

But I've seen more than a couple instances in the books that give Bruce a weight that would likely be problematic for a lot of these actors. We only need a screenwriter to harness those traits.

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

Well I definitely agree that we deserve a better Batman than we have gotten. Not that they have been bad but I'd like better than solid or pretty good for once. I do believe that they can push the character further than they have.

 

[Iceman]

Well I definitely agree that we deserve a better Batman than we have gotten. Not that they have been bad but I'd like better than solid or pretty good for once. I do believe that they can push the character further than they have.

How good (or bad) do you think Bale was, just out of interest?

 

[georgec]

I wish the pizza jokes would die now. He looks great.

Most of the pizza jokes seem tongue-in-cheek, intended to poke a little fun at people who thought Affleck wouldn't be in shape.

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

How good (or bad) do you think Bale was, just out of interest?

While I do hate the Batman voice and thinks he overacts in the costume a bit, Overall I thought he was pretty good and that reaction is mostly regarding how much I liked his performance in The Dark Knight Rises.

 

[Jekecy]

Bale was utterly abysmal, imo. And I don't use that word lightly.

I love him overall as an actor, and I probably would have always dreamed of him in the role if he had never been cast, so imagine my disappointment when I can't even make myself tolerate his performance under the cowl (important distinction). It boggles the mind no one thought to emphasize subtlety over theatricality. His excessive machismo and over-reliance on the growl is everything I hate associated with the character. And thanks to those performances, loud yelling and incessant grunts is now synonymous with Batman's image in modern pop culture. I find that to be a shame.

If Ben takes the Keaton approach and has the benefit of meatier material, I think he has a very good shot of superseding Bale's popularity. If nothing else than to take away all the ammo to clown a badass character.

 

[Iceman]

While I do hate the Batman voice and thinks he overacts in the costume a bit, Overall I thought he was pretty good and that reaction is mostly regarding how much I liked his performance in The Dark Knight Rises.

Gotya.

I didn't have a problem with the voice but I can see why others did, and I love the joke videos about it haha. I like Bale as both Batman & Bruce Wayne and I loved Heath as Joker, but in both cases I think there are other top actors that could also play these roles well.

 

[InJustice]

If Ben takes the Keaton approach and has the benefit of meatier material, I think he has a very good shot of superseding Bale's popularity. If nothing else than to take away all the ammo to clown a badass character.

What is it about Keaton's approach to Batman that is so special? I only ask that because every time I watch Burton's Batman, I never felt that he was truly Batman. It felt like he was bland and devoid of any personalities that are commonly associated with Batman in the comics (Nolan's Batman suffers from the same problem too, except it's not bland).

 

[Jekecy]

What is it about Keaton's approach to Batman that is so special? I only ask that because every time I watch Burton's Batman, I never felt that he was truly Batman. It felt like he was bland and devoid of any personalities that are commonly associated with Batman in the comics (Nolan's Batman suffers from the same problem too, except it's not bland).

The standout for me is the focus on "less is more". Keaton never spoke a single syllable more than he needed to. He was succinct, but also had an intensity behind his eyes to supplement his silent nature. It's most definitely not a "loaded" performance, but neither is the character. We're talking about a man whose dialog is most commonly represented in the books through inner monologues. It's just not going to translate to a performance which is outspoken. Nor should it, imo.

By itself, Keaton's performance isn't some outstanding marvel. Truthfully I've only come to appreciate his acting the more I see other actors try on the cowl. They really all pale in comparison, and to me it speaks volumes of how hard the role actually is beyond the surface. The likes of Kilmer, Clooney, and Bale have all turned in several great performances over their careers. But they've all been unanimously poor Batmen in my eyes. So there's clearly something that isn't being easily harnessed.

With Ben purportedly being a reader (likely in the 70s and 80s) for a while, I'm hoping he's taking a few pages from that era. That's when Bats was arguably written at his best.

 

[lc23]

Gotya.

I didn't have a problem with the voice but I can see why others did, and I love the joke videos about it haha. I like Bale as both Batman & Bruce Wayne and I loved Heath as Joker, but in both cases I think there are other top actors that could also play these roles well.

The thing about the joke videos is that they were pretty much spot on imitations of Bale's Batman performance. I was one of those people who legitimately had issues comprehending about half of what he was saying through all that awful mouth-breathing growling and lisping. You'd think a director would want his actors to be intelligible in their performances, I guess that wasn't the case with Nolan.

 

[The Endless]

The standout for me is the focus on "less is more". Keaton never spoke a single syllable more than he needed to. He was succinct, but also had an intensity behind his eyes to supplement his silent nature. It's most definitely not a "loaded" performance, but neither is the character. We're talking about a man whose dialog is most commonly represented in the books through inner monologues. It's just not going to translate to a performance which is outspoken. Nor should it, imo.

By itself, Keaton's performance isn't some outstanding marvel. Truthfully I've only come to appreciate his acting the more I see other actors try on the cowl. They really all pale in comparison, and to me it speaks volumes of how hard the role actually is beyond the surface. The likes of Kilmer, Clooney, and Bale have all turned in several great performances over their careers. But they've all been unanimously poor Batmen in my eyes. So there's clearly something that isn't being easily harnessed.

With Ben purportedly being a reader (likely in the 70s and 80s) for a while, I'm hoping he's taking a few pages from that era. That's when Bats was arguably written at his best.

I agree. There was something more effective about Keaton's Batman. He got across what he was feeling just with his face and eyes. No need for screaming and shouting like Bale.

With Keaton it actually felt like Batman was the real him, and Bruce Wayne was the act. There was always something intangible beneath the surface. The scene where he is driving Vicki back to the Bat cave is really strong work from Keaton and he doesn't even say a line of dialogue. It's all in his face and eyes.

 

[slumcat]

Bale was utterly abysmal, imo. And I don't use that word lightly.

I love him overall as an actor, and I probably would have always dreamed of him in the role if he had never been cast, so imagine my disappointment when I can't even make myself tolerate his performance under the cowl (important distinction). It boggles the mind no one thought to emphasize subtlety over theatricality. His excessive machismo and over-reliance on the growl is everything I hate associated with the character. And thanks to those performances, loud yelling and incessant grunts is now synonymous with Batman's image in modern pop culture. I find that to be a shame.

If Ben takes the Keaton approach and has the benefit of meatier material, I think he has a very good shot of superseding Bale's popularity. If nothing else than to take away all the ammo to clown a badass character.

I really liked The Dark Knight but at its center was an absolutely hollow and lifeless performance by Bale. He was extremely monotonic and robotic.

I find Bale that way in general. When's trying to do subtle, he comes across as a plank of wood to me. I sometimes wonder if there is something wrong with his face, is it botoxed or something? He doesn't have the gift of subtle expression changes for sure.

On the other end he does performances like The Fighter, which are just so over-the-top, and all flailing limbs and changing expressions mile-a-minute, that it feels like you are watching a cartoon instead of a human being.

There is no middle ground with Bale it seems - its either wooden or over the top. As such I find him to be an entirely unremarkable actor in every way. The only performance of his which I thought was mature and well done was his recent Oscar nominated performance in American Hustle. Amid of film stuffed to the gills with over-acting, he was the one sane and sober presence. He really played the sad sack very well. It kinda gave me the view of an alternative career for him where he was a truly wonderful character actor rather than a sorry leading man.

But yeah, he was heinously miscast as Batman. So for me Affleck has to live up to Keaton and not Bale.

 

[Kane52630]

For myself, I hope Affleck lives up to Clooney.

 

[Sawyer]

For myself, I hope Affleck lives up to Clooney.

 

[hafizbat]

I really liked The Dark Knight but at its center was an absolutely hollow and lifeless performance by Bale. He was extremely monotonic and robotic.

I find Bale that way in general. When's trying to do subtle, he comes across as a plank of wood to me. I sometimes wonder if there is something wrong with his face, is it botoxed or something? He doesn't have the gift of subtle expression changes for sure.

On the other end he does performances like The Fighter, which are just so over-the-top, and all flailing limbs and changing expressions mile-a-minute, that it feels like you are watching a cartoon instead of a human being.

There is no middle ground with Bale it seems - its either wooden or over the top. As such I find him to be an entirely unremarkable actor in every way. The only performance of his which I thought was mature and well done was his recent Oscar nominated performance in American Hustle. Amid of film stuffed to the gills with over-acting, he was the one sane and sober presence. He really played the sad sack very well. It kinda gave me the view of an alternative career for him where he was a truly wonderful character actor rather than a sorry leading man.

But yeah, he was heinously miscast as Batman. So for me Affleck has to live up to Keaton and not Bale.

This entire post is a fail. Especially the Botox part.

 

[guitarsingerguy]

While you're not wrong, I don't know why fans would want to place a ceiling on what could be accomplished with any given character/story. It goes without saying we want it to be good and engaging. And sure, it's "enough". Why not aspire for something great, however?

Don't get me wrong. If we got Citizen Kane none of us would be in anything short of awe. We were simply stating that the material really isn't complicated enough to REQUIRE the performance of a lifetime. Now if we end up getting the equivalent of Ledger's Joker, it's just an added bonus.

 

[matt47]

Has anyone here seen Bad Neighbors yet?? Seth and Zack Efron talk about who "their" Batman is and Seth says Keaton and they talk in their Batman voices. It's soooo great!!!!!

 

[super85]

This entire post is a fail. Especially the Botox part.

Well at least this time Slumcat didn't tell everyone that Val Kilmer was a lot bigger and in better shape in Batman Forever than Bale was in Begins

 

[shallbecomeabat]

Well at least this time Slumcat didn't tell everyone that Val Kilmer was a lot bigger and in better shape in Batman Forever than Bale was in Begins

That statement still makes me laugh sometimes. Oh man, what a riot.


For me, Bale was the best Batman we had thus far. Sure, he was a bit more human than most comic depictions of the character, but thats to be expected in a movie. I really like what he did with Batman (even the growl) and LOVE his Bruce Wayne. In my heart he will always be my movie Batman.

Keaton was pretty good in my eyes. I rewatched both Burton films recently and found him to be the best part of both. The problem is that he is given nothing to work with and the overall ridiculousness of those movies (Batman 89 makes no goddamned sense in its final third, while Batman Returns is a visually interesting trainwreck from the get go). Still... I really like what he did with that quiet anger.

 

[super85]

Yes I agree with you. There's big parts of Keaton. Kilmer, Bales and obviously Adam Wests performance Im a fan of. I don't think we have seen the perfect Batman on screen yet. I'm sure Affleck will do fine. Even poor George Clooney would have done fine if he would have had something to work with. Bale is by far my favorite Bruce Wayne so far.

 

[regwec]

I'm a bit surprised by the invective directed at Bale's Batman here. I'm not exactly hesitant in criticising elements of the Nolan trilogy, but I don't really think Bale was one of its problems. BB wouldn't have been nearly the film it was without him in the role, and I think he did well in TDK where he had to play the lead in a big ensemble cast filled with very colourful characters. Although TDKR's script was woeful, I think Bale did as well as anyone could in selling its central conceits.

Yes, Nrgh Bhratt Vroish was embarrassing at times, but the thinking behind it was sound. The sound editor and the director should have done more to mitigate its failure.

Overall, I think Bale was a clear asset to the trilogy. He was often made to look stupid by poor scripting (particularly TDKR), bad fight choreography, a horrible looking Batsuit and the silly voice. But all actors sometimes have those things thrust upon them.

 

[slumcat]

This entire post is a fail. Especially the Botox part.

Only juvenile people find opinions that they disagree with as "fail".

There is no greater failure in this world than close-mindedness, intolerance, blindness and fanboyism. And I am afraid you excel at each.

 

[Wise]

Has anyone here seen Bad Neighbors yet?? Seth and Zack Efron talk about who "their" Batman is and Seth says Keaton and they talk in their Batman voices. It's soooo great!!!!!

Ha yeah funny movie that part was great.

Efron would actually make a pretty good Dick/Nightwing. Has the look and the charisma.

 

[Iceman]

The thing about the joke videos is that they were pretty much spot on imitations of Bale's Batman performance. I was one of those people who legitimately had issues comprehending about half of what he was saying through all that awful mouth-breathing growling and lisping. You'd think a director would want his actors to be intelligible in their performances, I guess that wasn't the case with Nolan.

I can't believe this has over 20m views on youtube now! t:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2yv8aT0UFc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnOLhXmhkyA

I also rewatched the interrogation scene just to make sure and there's not a single word from Batman that I had any trouble deciphering (there was actually one from Joker) and I remember not having any troubles on 1st viewing either. The voice is very exaggerated so I certainly understand people's complaints. If you or others couldn't understand clearly what was being said then I can understand that being a huge problem (I always use subtitles for all films I watch at home as I want to know every word said, not just the general flow of the conversation) and it should have been dialled back on that basis alone. It just was never an issue for me.