EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

[chamber-music]

I don't understand how you would reach this conclusion re: Black Panther. IMO the movie that has the biggest risk is Ant-Man. He doesn't have a good origin, and his greatest claim to fame in the Marvel Universe is his creation of Ultron, even though he was one of the founders of Avengers. I don't understand why Marvel Studios would waste a slot in Phase III for Ant-Man, quite frankly.

Ant-Man was supposed to be the first Marvel studios movie. Ant-Man wasn't made yet because of Edgar not Marvel. Edgar Wright and Joe Cornish wrote a draft for the character back when the rights were at another studio and when they went back to to Marvel they were the first to approach Marvel about making a movie. Kevin Feige has always said they will make Ant-Man when Edgars ready and find a slot for him. Feige was willing to breaking Marvels two movie a year policy for Ant-Man.

Black Panther not getting a movie yet hasn't got anything to do with Ant-Man.

Ant-Man is going to be a big action movie based of multiple Ant-Man's mythology as well as original stuff Wright and Cronish has have come up with. Comic backgrounds don't matter that much to general audiences. What matters is if the movie looks good. No one cared about Blade comics but they made a couple of good movies that found a fanbase.

I'm sure Black Panther is coming soon. I would rather wait for Marvel to come up with a great Black Panther movie than just shove out some weak bad panther movie because fans aren't willing to wait a little while. We had to wait for Iron Man, Thor and an Avengers movie and they turned out pretty good in my opinion.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Feige said himself that fanboys endlessly speculating about and demanding a BP movie shows the demand is there.

So our consistent impatience is not the problem.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

And I'm more excited about the Maximoffs being in the film than BP.

That's nice but there's more spin-off potential for Black Panther.

A BP trilogy is worth hundreds of millions in profit if executed properly.

 

[chamber-music]

There is a demand for Black Panther but you can bet if Marvel quickly rush out a bad Black Panther movie the fanboys will be angry that it sucks. Better to let Marvel make it when they are ready. I'm sure behind the scenes they are looking at scripts for Black Panther they just aren't announcing anything publicly until they got things in order.

 

[DrCosmic]

That's tangential, actually. The worst that will happen with either Ant-Man or GotG is that audiences will go "meh, this is silly". With Black Panther, you run the risk of *offending* audiences, leading to actual legitimate outcries and bad PR.

Exactly. Marvel have been trying to be all progressive hiring bigger name black actors every film. They don't to mess up all their goodwill by messing up 'the black superhero' movie or by letting the audience feel they are getting a PC superhero.

Why would audiences be offended by Black Panther?

If Black Panther is too modern/urban/uses too much slang: "Why is the Black superhero a thug?"
If the Black Panther movie is not good: "Why does the Black superhero get the sucky movie?"
If Black Panther fights a white guy: "Why should I see a Get Whitey film?"
If Black Panther fights a black guy: "Why should I support Black on Black infighting/violence?"
If Black Panther shows any weakness not previously shown by other heroes: "Why is Black Panther so sucky compared to others?"
If Black Panther doesn't show any weakness previously shown by other heroes: "Why does this guy have it so easy? Why isn't he original?"

It's not so much the concept itself, but there are a myriad of ways to execute Black Panther in a way that is racially tense or offensive. Ways that most filmmakers cannot intuitively avoid, and sometimes stumble upon even at their most well meaning. That's part of why Marvel is waiting for someone (likely a popular/powerful black director) to come to them... the problem is that popular/powerful black directors do their own thing, otherwise they would have never become so.

 

[terry78]

The character has always been a damned if you, damned if you don't think. Writers have made him too infallible, too fallible, too much of a jerk, not enough of one, and so on.

 

[metaphysician]

Why would audiences be offended by Black Panther?

. . .because it involves an entire fictional African society? That's a huge minefield of potential for coming off as racist.

Edit: Scooped.

 

[zeroapoc]

People really need to lighten up.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Exactly. Marvel have been trying to be all progressive hiring bigger name black actors every film. They don't to mess up all their goodwill by messing up 'the black superhero' movie or by letting the audience feel they are getting a PC superhero.



If Black Panther is too modern/urban/uses too much slang: "Why is the Black superhero a thug?"
If the Black Panther movie is not good: "Why does the Black superhero get the sucky movie?"
If Black Panther fights a white guy: "Why should I see a Get Whitey film?"
If Black Panther fights a black guy: "Why should I support Black on Black infighting/violence?"
If Black Panther shows any weakness not previously shown by other heroes: "Why is Black Panther so sucky compared to others?"
If Black Panther doesn't show any weakness previously shown by other heroes: "Why does this guy have it so easy? Why isn't he original?"

It's not so much the concept itself, but there are a myriad of ways to execute Black Panther in a way that is racially tense or offensive. Ways that most filmmakers cannot intuitively avoid, and sometimes stumble upon even at their most well meaning. That's part of why Marvel is waiting for someone (likely a popular/powerful black director) to come to them... the problem is that popular/powerful black directors do their own thing, otherwise they would have never become so.

If you do proper and accurate Black Panther adaptation you don't have to worry about any of those other than the "evil whitey" dynamic from having a white villain which you can easily offset by having black bag guys also.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

The character has always been a damned if you, damned if you don't think. Writers have made him too infallible, too fallible, too much of a jerk, not enough of one, and so on.

That's actually an opportunity for a character arc.

Just use Black Panther's arrogance and elitist skills as part of a hard earned transition to humility and true nobility.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

People really need to lighten up.

Agreed.

White people love Coming to America.

A fictional, mega-successful African nation that looked down on American was embraced by most movie goers.

It all comes down to execution.

 

[DrCosmic]

The character has always been a damned if you, damned if you don't think. Writers have made him too infallible, too fallible, too much of a jerk, not enough of one, and so on.

Exactly. This is not to say that it can't be done but that, surprise, the black guy is judged more harshly. You basically, to do a BP movie successfully, you've got to see all these things coming down the pipe, and then sidestep each of them, not just well, but in a way that it still artistic and fun.

You give him a white and a black villain team up.
You give him a white sidekick - that is heroic, without taking any spotlight
You give him a black love interest, but they don't live happily ever after, but it's not tragic either.
You let it be an all around origin story so he ends up awesome by the end, doesn't seem infallible at the beginning, and earns his cred
You give Wakanda some invention that shows they're advanced, even though they're not uber yet.
Other such parsing of issues...

Still then, people will complain, but it won't be 'offensive,' y'know?

 

[DrCosmic]

I was sitting on that post for a while, didn't see the others...

Agreed.

White people love Coming to America.

A fictional, mega-successful African nation that looked down on American was embraced by most movie goers.

It all comes down to execution.

Well, yeah, if you do a comedy, it's all good, definitely nothing to sweat. Or even if you go that road and just make them more successful than other African nations. Zamunda is not a threat, it's not relevant to anyone but the Prince. It's backstory, nothing more. Also, it knows it's weird and while it actually is very subtly more advanced, only thinkers would even notice. On the surface it appears comically backwards.

If you do proper and accurate Black Panther adaptation you don't have to worry about any of those other than the "evil whitey" dynamic from having a white villain which you can easily offset by having black bag guys also.

I'm not in the camp that an accurate adaptation automatically = good movie... re: Watchmen. Neither would I classify adapting Hudlin's slangy Panther as "inaccurate."

Another issue, and perhaps the most challenging, imho, is the character arc you referred to... how do you do the humble storyline again in a way which is not reminiscent of Thor or Iron Man. Again, not that it can't be done, but it's *far* from a no brainer.

Which is good, because it gives us something to talk about.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Exactly. This is not to say that it can't be done but that, surprise, the black guy is judged more harshly. You basically, to do a BP movie successfully, you've got to see all these things coming down the pipe, and then sidestep each of them, not just well, but in a way that it still artistic and fun.

You give him a white and a black villain team up.
You give him a white sidekick - that is heroic, without taking any spotlight
You give him a black love interest, but they don't live happily ever after, but it's not tragic either.
You let it be an all around origin story so he ends up awesome by the end, doesn't seem infallible at the beginning, and earns his cred
You give Wakanda some invention that shows they're advanced, even though they're not uber yet.
Other such parsing of issues...

Still then, people will complain, but it won't be 'offensive,' y'know?

Agreed for the most part.

but I don't want want a black and white hero team up (Blade Trinity, anyone?).

Maybe a cameo with Ant Man giving BP an assist but nothing so involved that it steals BP's spotlight.

 

[Paradox1]

I don't understand why a fictional African country would come of as racist ? How many fictional high tech societies have we seen on tv and movies.
Why would the black panther use slang? As far as I know BP is a African king and African's don't speak like Americans.

I don't see how a black Panther movie can come off as racist it's ludacris to me.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I was sitting on that post for a while, didn't see the others...



Well, yeah, if you do a comedy, it's all good, definitely nothing to sweat. Or even if you go that road and just make them more successful than other African nations. Zamunda is not a threat, it's not relevant to anyone but the Prince. It's backstory, nothing more. Also, it knows it's weird and while it actually is very subtly more advanced, only thinkers would even notice. On the surface it appears comically backwards.



I'm not in the camp that an accurate adaptation automatically = good movie... re: Watchmen. Neither would I classify adapting Hudlin's slangy Panther as "inaccurate."

Another issue, and perhaps the most challenging, imho, is the character arc you referred to... how do you do the humble storyline again in a way which is not reminiscent of Thor or Iron Man. Again, not that it can't be done, but it's *far* from a no brainer.

Which is good, because it gives us something to talk about.

Every character arc has been done somewhere, elsewhere before.

Marvel doesn't have to reinvent the wheel. Black Panther is basically a combination of the big three Marvel characters super-scientist (Iron Man), royalty (Thor), and tactical combat genius (Cap), so why not borrow from all three character arcs to show how BP is a formidable amalgamation who can relate and contribute plenty to the Avengers concept.

 

[DrCosmic]

Agreed for the most part.

but I don't want want a black and white hero team up (Blade Trinity, anyone?).

Maybe a cameo with Ant Man giving BP an assist but nothing so involved that it steals BP's spotlight.

Agreed, utterly utterly agreed.

I think the original comics were onto something with Trueblood and Priest with Everett Ross. A white emissary agent who kinda is under BP's wing, and gets their moment of glory near the end, showing that BP's training/message/heart is so awesome even other people can use it. Something like that. A Gordon or a Rachel, not a Catwoman or a John Blake.

I don't understand why a fictional African country would come of as racist ? How many fictional high tech societies have we seen on tv and movies.
Why would the black panther use slang? As far as I know BP is a African king and African's don't speak like Americans.

I don't see how a black Panther movie can come off as racist it's ludacris to me.

Well, the comics are called racist at times already. Some people take genuine offense to seeing a so called advanced society running around in loincloths throwing spears just because they're black. Others, call "reverse racism" when the main black character runs around killing a bunch of white folk.

I mean, in the surprisingly not worst case, you could have the Wakandans speaking jive and feasting on watermelon and fried chicken. So it's certainly possible for them to come off racist. Again, it's not in the concept, it's in the execution. There are many details about Wakanda that, if mishandled, can be offensive, from what they eat, to what they wear, to how they speak, to how the interact with the outside world, to how they view the outside world.

As for slang, maybe you should ask Reginald Hudlin, who wrote the most successful BP run to date. Something about him being a world traveler...

And just as note: Ludicrous means very ridiculous. Ludacris is just the rapper.

 

[bubbadoom]

The character has always been a damned if you, damned if you don't think. Writers have made him too infallible, too fallible, too much of a jerk, not enough of one, and so on.

The original Lee/Kirby version of the Panther was perfect in their FF and Suspense stories - that should be the template.

 

[DrCosmic]

Every character arc has been done somewhere, elsewhere before.

Marvel doesn't have to reinvent the wheel. Black Panther is basically a combination of the big three Marvel characters super-scientist (Iron Man), royalty (Thor), and tactical combat genius (Cap), so why not borrow from all three character arcs to show how BP is a formidable amalgamation who can relate and contribute plenty to the Avengers concept.

I know, but that's both good and bad. It's good because you can just redo what's just been done... but that's bad because then you don't bring anything new to the table, Panther becomes redundant and anything he does can be done by a more beloved/familiar/longstanding MCU character.

When you think about amalgamation characters, they often *have* get backgrounded, depowered or outright removed because otherwise... they solve everything pretty swiftly, from a storytelling point of view. And as you know, they're not selling a concept, they're selling a story. I think the EMH cartoon did a great job of balancing that backgrounding, making BP an incredibly badarse background character, and it fit his character arc. I'm not sure that's what I'd want for an Avengers film though.

And the fact that this character arc has been done recently in the same continuity twice means that any other character in the same continuity doing that storyline needs to do it in a fresh way or be seen as derivative. This risk is heightened by the similarities. That's why I suggest BP needs a new angle on that humility story, one that doesn't tend towards Thor's depowering or Iron Man's my-tech-in-the-wrong hands issue.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I'd like to re-introduce the idea, from Roach, that Wakandans discovered a herb that makes them much smarter which explains their near alien-like technology.

 

[DrCosmic]

But then you'd have to explain - and indeed engage the audience with - a country with near-alien technology has had no impact on anything ever, or been adversely affected by anything either. Wakanda, like SHIELD, Stark Industries, Asgard, and Cap's WWII alliances, has to be dramatically toned down in order to fit in the MCU, imho.

 

[zeroapoc]

Others, call "reverse racism"

I've never understood that phrase. Racism is racism.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

But then you'd have to explain - and indeed engage the audience with - a country with near-alien technology has had no impact on anything ever, or been adversely affected by anything either. Wakanda, like SHIELD, Stark Industries, Asgard, and Cap's WWII alliances, has to be dramatically toned down in order to fit in the MCU, imho.

Why does advanced tech need to be used for exploration and conquest?

Why can't it be used soley to defend isolationism and self-determination?

 

[KDM1986]

Why does advanced tech need to be used for exploration and conquest?

Why can't it be used soley to defend isolationism and self-determination?

Agreed. An advanced society with near alien tech would be easy to conceal itself from the rest of the world. I think it would make for a great movie plot line.

 

[Paradox1]

Agreed, utterly utterly agreed.

I think the original comics were onto something with Trueblood and Priest with Everett Ross. A white emissary agent who kinda is under BP's wing, and gets their moment of glory near the end, showing that BP's training/message/heart is so awesome even other people can use it. Something like that. A Gordon or a Rachel, not a Catwoman or a John Blake.



Well, the comics are called racist at times already. Some people take genuine offense to seeing a so called advanced society running around in loincloths throwing spears just because they're black. Others, call "reverse racism" when the main black character runs around killing a bunch of white folk.

I mean, in the surprisingly not worst case, you could have the Wakandans speaking jive and feasting on watermelon and fried chicken. So it's certainly possible for them to come off racist. Again, it's not in the concept, it's in the execution. There are many details about Wakanda that, if mishandled, can be offensive, from what they eat, to what they wear, to how they speak, to how the interact with the outside world, to how they view the outside world.

As for slang, maybe you should ask Reginald Hudlin, who wrote the most successful BP run to date. Something about him being a world traveler...

And just as note: Ludicrous means very ridiculous. Ludacris is just the rapper.

The ludacris I did on purpose cause that's how outragous it is to feel like BP is racist. Why is it hard to believe a black society is higher in tech than the rest of the world? When we are suppose to believe that somehow Tony Stark was just not able to build a functional AI but the Iron Man tech as well. There is none of that remotely possible with today's technology but Wakanda can't have similar tech? In ancient times while the rest of the world was still living in caves there were countries in Africa building the pyramids of Giza and the spinks. The kingdom of Kush is where the Greeks and Romans learned math. There is no need for alien explanations or drugs or whatever all you need is a fictional Ancient country that somehow was able to stay isolated and free of European imperalism.

As well as get your stereotypes right African are not Afro-Americans they don't eat fried chicken I don't even know if they eat watermelons. Obviously wakandans walking around in loin cloth is a no brainer get rid of it, however they shouldnt be new gods either.