Fantastic Four reborn! - - Part 11

[Spider-Fan]

Yeah, I didn't say any of the things to attribute to me saying here. I never said that Reed should be a bumbling awkward weirdo who geeks out over things just because they're cool. I never even used the world bumbling. All I said was that I don't see the notion of him being some square jawed man's man comparable to Indiana Jones as having any kind of basis, and the guy that they're cast might be able to capture Reed's qualities, which I cited as being a quiet and obsessive intellectual who's sometimes aloof and always determined to do the right thing, effectively.

You said Reed is a quiet nerd who lives in his lab. This isn't accurate. The FF are basically explorers. So, Reed IS like Indiana Jones, only his adventures are based off science/space. Reed isn't "quiet". Quiet indicates he is either afraid to talk or shy about it. Reed is neither of these things. Reed has no problem communicating with people. His issue is his attention span. You're right, he is obsessive. But, if he had an assistant to talk to that would understand what he was doing, he wouldn't be quiet. Whenever Doom and Reed have teamed up in the comics, they've been very active. Reed isn't timid. Whenever one of his experiments yields interesting results, he always brings in the gang to explore his theories. He also attempts to communicate what he is seeing with the others. He doesn't keep them to himself, even though largely they don't comprehend what he is saying.

So, Reed is far more Indiana Jones-like than people give him credit for. He just prefers to handle a situation with science as opposed to punching people, and that is part of his curiosity.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Many characters were written out of character in Civil War I thought...I loved it when I first read it but now not so much.

I still love it, and it's an enjoyable story.. just not when you apply logic of "these characters have known each other for how long? and are being THIS ridiculous? but then again... the MU apparently has only been around 15-20 years in the books

 

[The Question]

You said Reed is a quiet nerd who lives in his lab. This isn't accurate. The FF are basically explorers.

I never said that to imply that Reed is some kind of agoraphobe who never leaves his lab. Clearly he goes on adventures, otherwise the plots of the comic would never happen. But when he's not taking the team to some weird location to study some strange phenomena or investigate something, he does spend the vast majority in his time hold up in his lab doing research. That's a very consistent part of his character.

So, Reed IS like Indiana Jones, only his adventures are based off science/space.

Simply going out and exploring things doesn't mean you're significantly like Indiana Jones.

Reed isn't "quiet". Quiet indicates he is either afraid to talk or shy about it.

No it doesn't. It indicates that he doesn't engage in conversation much. That might be due to fear or shyness, but it also might be due to not having much to say in a casual conversation or being busy doing other things.

Reed is neither of these things. Reed has no problem communicating with people.

I'd say he does sometimes, insofar as his tendency to give longwinded explanations for things and to not really engage people in conversations that aren't just him rambling on about science.

Which, again, has nothing to do with fear or shyness.

His issue is his attention span.

I think his attention span is pretty huge, he just mostly focuses it on science.

You're right, he is obsessive. But, if he had an assistant to talk to that would understand what he was doing, he wouldn't be quiet.

This is true. But he doesn't. So most of the time he is quiet.

Reed isn't timid.

Never said or even implied that he was.

Whenever one of his experiments yields interesting results, he always brings in the gang to explore his theories. He also attempts to communicate what he is seeing with the others. He doesn't keep them to himself, even though largely they don't comprehend what he is saying.

And that's usually when he does the majority of his talking to other people, and in those cases he pretty much just ends up talking to himself. I said he was quiet, not mute. Just not much of a conversationalist.

So, Reed is far more Indiana Jones-like than people give him credit for. He just prefers to handle a situation with science as opposed to punching people, and that is part of his curiosity.

So far, the only Indiana Jones-like trait you've described is that he explores things and goes on adventures. Something I never disputed.

 

[Dark Raven]

I always envisioned Reed Richards more like Stephen Boyd in Fantastic Voyage. He was an adventurer and confident leader but also conveyed a great deal of intelligence and someone who could strategize effectively.

Boyd also played the commander of the Roman Garrison, Messala in Ben Hur. Had he been alive today, he would've made a fantastic Reed.

It wasn't just Kirby who drew Reed in that way. It was also the likes of Herbe Trimpe, John Buscema, and really most other artists before John Byrne's weaker and nerdier image which people seem to have fixated upon as the default image.

 

[Jason Kane]

From what I've read, this could become Trank's own Cutthroat Island

 

[SaltyPopcorn]

I've always been a "wait and see" kind of person, so I'm not going to be too negative until I see a trailer or even the film itself, but I have to admit that I'm not feeling too good about this one. I wasn't too big a fan of Fox's first two FF movies and this one, to me, seems like it has just been rushed so Fox can keep the rights. I was hoping that time would run out and Marvel would get the characters, as with Daredevil, but no such luck.

I'm interested in seeing what they do with it, though, and I'm open to a bit of change. If it's good, I'll gladly eat my words.

 

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

Yeah, the reason people weren't going crazy paranoid (like I admittedly am about this) when Whedon got the Avengers is because he was an established FAN who had demonstrated he GOT the characters. Conversely, EVERY decision we've seen from Trank indicates that he not only doesn't get the characters but that he doesn't respect the fan base enough to even try. Nobody wants to feel good and happy about an FF film more than me. NOBODY. But this is obviously going to be unwatchable. sigh.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

Simply going out and exploring things doesn't mean you're significantly like Indiana Jones.

Anyone even remotely familiar with early incarnations of the FF can tell you that Reed is very clearly based on pulp action heroes from the 30's, of which Indy himself is drawn. Doc Savage is the example I often use but comparisons to Jones are plenty accurate.

 

[Jason Kane]

Yeah, the reason people weren't going crazy paranoid (like I admittedly am about this) when Whedon got the Avengers is because he was an established FAN who had demonstrated he GOT the characters. Conversely, EVERY decision we've seen from Trank indicates that he not only doesn't get the characters but that he doesn't respect the fan base enough to even try. Nobody wants to feel good and happy about an FF film more than me. NOBODY. But this is obviously going to be unwatchable. sigh.

Sad but true. I'm trying hard to be a wait and see guy but I getting bad vibes from this project the same way I had when it came to Catwoman a decade ago.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Yeah, the reason people weren't going crazy paranoid (like I admittedly am about this) when Whedon got the Avengers is because he was an established FAN who had demonstrated he GOT the characters. Conversely, EVERY decision we've seen from Trank indicates that he not only doesn't get the characters but that he doesn't respect the fan base enough to even try. Nobody wants to feel good and happy about an FF film more than me. NOBODY. But this is obviously going to be unwatchable. sigh.

Fox could definitely buy themselves some time with a couple statements regarding how much they respect the characters and how close they intend to make this to the source material. Even if many of us who have been through this before will expect that's complete BS, they'd at least be giving us something.

But they can't seem to bring themselves to make even that small gesture.

With some statements like that, we could be discussing how much we trust them and if they can pull it off rather than having people trying to defend the idea that they don't even have to try to make an FF film.

There seem to be plenty of people who, for whatever reason, seem determined to carry Fox's water no matter what. They could at least make those minions not look so desperate if they gave them something to work with.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Yeah, the reason people weren't going crazy paranoid (like I admittedly am about this) when Whedon got the Avengers is because he was an established FAN who had demonstrated he GOT the characters. Conversely, EVERY decision we've seen from Trank indicates that he not only doesn't get the characters but that he doesn't respect the fan base enough to even try. Nobody wants to feel good and happy about an FF film more than me. NOBODY. But this is obviously going to be unwatchable. sigh.

That and Marvel had earned good will from us, the fans, with Iron Man. So there was more general optimism. We didn't have a Tim Story's FF series in which they butchered the characters first. When you burn a fanbase once (no less, twice in you only 2 films), then they won't trust you unless you earn it. To this point, FOX hasn't earned it.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Anyone even remotely familiar with early incarnations of the FF can tell you that Reed is very clearly based on pulp action heroes from the 30's, of which Indy himself is drawn. Doc Savage is the example I often use but comparisons to Jones are plenty accurate.

I really don't think the FF are a complicated group to understand. I always felt their place in the Marvel Universe, and what the book "is about" was always fairly obvious. UFF has definitely tarnished the brand more than I previously believed.

 

[Dark Raven]

Trank ought to read that FF trade paperback "Imaginauts". Not only is the first story precisely about how the FF aren't that difficult to get and how making them faithful to the source material is what will make them popular, but there's even a commentary in the back on how to write these characters. In that commentary, Reed is completely compared to Doc Savage rather than the professor from Gilligan's Island.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

FOX hasn't earned it.

This is a phrase that keeps going through my mind. I'm not, by nature, a cynical person, but I followed the last two FF films very closely, and I saw the crap Fox pulled firsthand. I remained optimisitic through both those projects and got burned twice.

With that perspective in mind, Fox starts in the negative with me - even before we had any information - and they have to work their way out of that hole.

Unfortunately they've been digging themselves deeper and deeper with each bit of information we've heard.

Trank ought to read that FF trade paperback "Imaginauts". Not only is the first story precisely about how the FF aren't that difficult to get and how making them faithful to the source material is what will make them popular, but there's even a commentary in the back on how to write these characters. In that commentary, Reed is completely compared to Doc Savage rather than the professor from Gilligan's Island.

 

[Dark Raven]

Reed seems to have been emasculated over the years, particularly by certain writers/ artists portayals where readers then begin to think this is how he's meant to be. He'll be further emasculated with Trank and Teller's portrayal (you probably can't get worse than Teller short of getting a woman in the role now).

The classic Reed was more like Captain Kirk and Mr Spock combined - the bravado and gung-ho leader like Kirk, and the intelligence and curiosity for science like Spock. Perhaps with the diplomacy of Captain Picard thrown in too.

But even Spock, as much as he liked spending time on scientific enquiry and intellectual pursuits, would hardly be considered a nerd either. He was still a very competent and confident leader who could be ruthless at times, and could easily go toe-to-toe with much stronger villains.

Reed should be like that. He should easily be able to take on the might of Doctor Doom himself. In fact, Fantastic Four 200 is a really classic encounter between the two of them where Reed is shown to be a tough, take-charge leader who will use his brawn instead of his brains when necessary:

Teller looks more like he'd throw toilet rolls at Doctor Doom's mansion or barrage him with spitballs and then drive away in the Fantasticar laughing:

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Reed seems to have been emasculated over the years, particularly by certain writers/ artists portayals where readers then begin to think this is how he's meant to be. He'll be further emasculated with Trank and Teller's portrayal (you probably can't get worse than Teller short of getting a woman in the role now).

The classic Reed was more like Captain Kirk and Mr Spock combined - the bravado and gung-ho leader like Kirk, and the intelligence and curiosity for science like Spock. Perhaps with the diplomacy of Captain Picard thrown in too.

But even Spock, as much as he liked spending time on scientific enquiry and intellectual pursuits, would hardly be considered a nerd either. He was still a very competent and confident leader who could be ruthless at times, and could easily go toe-to-toe with much stronger villains.

Reed should be like that. He should easily be able to take on the might of Doctor Doom himself. In fact, Fantastic Four 200 is a really classic encounter between the two of them where Reed is shown to be a tough, take-charge leader who will use his brawn instead of his brains when necessary:

Teller looks more like he'd throw toilet rolls at Doctor Doom's mansion or barrage him with spitballs and then drive away in the Fantasticar laughing:

I think one of the biggest forces in the un-Reeding of Reed was how badly he was mischaracterized in the first two films. That provided a broad perception of Reed as wimp, and it seems that that perception lingers (and has probably been incorporated into some of the comics over the past 10 years).

And how boring, insulting and stereotypical is that nerd image? Hollywood likes to portray smart people as socially awkward geeks and seems to have trouble getting past that stereotype even though in real life, people are often smart, confident and socially competent.

One of my son's friends is a chemistry major who gets great grades. He's also an officer in the National Guard reserves. He's in great shape, he's confident, he's adventurous, he's outgoing, he's a leader and he's very smart. That's the way over-achievers often are in the real world. There may be smart people with aspergers, but you don't have to have aspergers to be smart - though Hollywood often likes to use that cliche'.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

And throughout the past several months, I've heard people argue: "But X isn't a key part of the character." when they think we should accept unnecessary changes without question.

But being a strong, confident leader is a key part of Reed's character.

He has always been the clear and undisputed leader of the group who pulls all of the others together with his strong personality.

A shy, reserved lab-rat can't perform the role that Reed has to fulfill to make the Fantastic Four what they are.

They tried that in the first two films and we saw how that worked.

 

[C. Lee]

This is a phrase that keeps going through my mind. I'm not, by nature, a cynical person, but I followed the last two FF films very closely, and I saw the crap Fox pulled firsthand. I remained optimisitic through both those projects and got burned twice.

With that perspective in mind, Fox starts in the negative with me - even before we had any information - and they have to work their way out of that hole.

Unfortunately they've been digging themselves deeper and deeper with each bit of information we've heard.

I think that's what's been happening with me too. I had hoped for so much from the previous FF movies, and was let down (even though I remained upbeat and positive about the results)....but from the beginning, this one looks like a bigger SNAFU than the others.....I have absolutely no confidence in it at all....and just had to say something about it.

 

[Jason Kane]

Reed seems to have been emasculated over the years, particularly by certain writers/ artists portayals where readers then begin to think this is how he's meant to be. He'll be further emasculated with Trank and Teller's portrayal (you probably can't get worse than Teller short of getting a woman in the role now).

The classic Reed was more like Captain Kirk and Mr Spock combined - the bravado and gung-ho leader like Kirk, and the intelligence and curiosity for science like Spock. Perhaps with the diplomacy of Captain Picard thrown in too.

But even Spock, as much as he liked spending time on scientific enquiry and intellectual pursuits, would hardly be considered a nerd either. He was still a very competent and confident leader who could be ruthless at times, and could easily go toe-to-toe with much stronger villains.

Reed should be like that. He should easily be able to take on the might of Doctor Doom himself. In fact, Fantastic Four 200 is a really classic encounter between the two of them where Reed is shown to be a tough, take-charge leader who will use his brawn instead of his brains when necessary:

Teller looks more like he'd throw toilet rolls at Doctor Doom's mansion or barrage him with spitballs and then drive away in the Fantasticar laughing:

All I can see in Teller is he'd make an formitable Foggy Nelson than Reed Richards. He face really screams Foggy to me

 

[green]

Sad but true. I'm trying hard to be a wait and see guy but I getting bad vibes from this project the same way I had when it came to Catwoman a decade ago.

You know, as bad as Catwoman was at least they were upfront about the fact the it was not Selina Kyle but rather someone made up. If Fox came out and said this isn't Reed Richards, the Storms and Ben Grimm but some other people who are the new alternate movie verse FF, it'd be alright...still an abomination though.

 

[Dark Raven]

I think one of the biggest forces in the un-Reeding of Reed was how badly he was mischaracterized in the first two films. That provided a broad perception of Reed as wimp, and it seems that that perception lingers (and has probably been incorporated into some of the comics over the past 10 years).

And how boring, insulting and stereotypical is that nerd image? Hollywood likes to portray smart people as socially awkward geeks and seems to have trouble getting past that stereotype even though in real life, people are often smart, confident and socially competent.

One of my son's friends is a chemistry major who gets great grades. He's also an officer in the National Guard reserves. He's in great shape, he's confident, he's adventurous, he's outgoing, he's a leader and he's very smart. That's the way over-achievers often are in the real world. There may be smart people with aspergers, but you don't have to have aspergers to be smart - though Hollywood often likes to use that cliche'.

It's a bit like when you look at the image of Sean Connery's Bond in the 1960s compared to Pierce Brosnan's take in the 90s and early 2000s. Connery was this virile, strapping man who was tough and looked like he could credibly beat up his enemies. Heck, he even once picked up a sofa to use as a battering ram to bash one of his attackers. Brosnan would have trouble even lifting that up, and he also barely seemed to hold his own against tiny pip squeaks like Robert Carlyle. Bond became much more effeminate compared to how he was originally.

And that's kind of what seemed to happen with Gruffudd's portrayal compared to the tougher, Doc Savage-like comic Reed from the 60s. But unlike with Bond, where after Brosnan they went for a tougher take with Daniel Craig, here following Gruffudd, they've gone for an even girlier man with Miles Teller. And people are going to end up believing this is just how Reed should be.

Just watch what will probably happen in cartoons where that aspect will be taken even further. Reed may become completely socially awkward and inept, and a very weak, fey character. We'll soon see him ending up as one of Peter Parker's teen buddies in an Ultimate Spider-Man styled animated series in the future.

 

[EssayM]

To be fair, Teller did say the movie "gives me an opportunity to play something different from my own skin." Hopefully that translates to "not The Awkward Moment with superpowers".

 

[spideyboy_1111]

I think that's what's been happening with me too. I had hoped for so much from the previous FF movies, and was let down (even though I remained upbeat and positive about the results)....but from the beginning, this one looks like a bigger SNAFU than the others.....I have absolutely no confidence in it at all....and just had to say something about it.

yeah, this just feels a mess... it feels like the only ones truly happy with the situation either

A) Never had been a big fan of the F4, and look forward to shaking things up

B) Are just fans of Trank and MBJ and thrilled to see them working together again

C) Think they know alot of about the Fantastic Four... but do not, mostly only getting there info from Ultimate Fantastic Four (which clearly this film already isn't shaping up to be based on either) or very small snidbits from the comics (most likely just major cross overs like Civil War (where characterization typically is a bit off from there solos)

I just don't see how any long time Fantastic Four fan who knows, loves, and thoroughly enjoys these characters, can be happy about this film what so ever.

Don't get me wrong, None of the above is a bad thing for people to feel, but it does justify and explain the reasoning behind ones thoughts and feelings on the subject, which is perfectly ok to agree with. At least that's what I seem to be noticing.

I think we need a much more "classic" take on the fantastic four before we try to craft something new and "different"

 

[Zarex]

I think one of the biggest forces in the un-Reeding of Reed was how badly he was mischaracterized in the first two films. That provided a broad perception of Reed as wimp, and it seems that that perception lingers (and has probably been incorporated into some of the comics over the past 10 years).

And how boring, insulting and stereotypical is that nerd image? Hollywood likes to portray smart people as socially awkward geeks and seems to have trouble getting past that stereotype even though in real life, people are often smart, confident and socially competent.

One of my son's friends is a chemistry major who gets great grades. He's also an officer in the National Guard reserves. He's in great shape, he's confident, he's adventurous, he's outgoing, he's a leader and he's very smart. That's the way over-achievers often are in the real world. There may be smart people with aspergers, but you don't have to have aspergers to be smart - though Hollywood often likes to use that cliche'.

Let's not forget "cocky, ladies man" Johnny Storm. Though Chris Evans gave a fine performance in the Story movies, the character has just as often been written in the comics as insecure and unlucky in love.

The biggest problem with all of the casting issues is that FOX appears to be insulting Marvel's First Family. Though I personally think Donald Glover would have been great as Spidey, he couldn't even land an interview with Sony for the role. WB appears not to have even consider creative and/or diversified casting for their upcoming Trinity film. Though FOX has struggled with costuming with all of their non First Class films, the roster of the onscreen X-Men teams share a strong similarity with their comic book counterparts. And the assembled Avengers team share an even stronger relationship with the source material.

So why doesn't the FF receive the same treatment? Does FOX consider the team that started the Marvel Age of Comics not worthy? Why are fans of the FF supposed to accept Trank's and his army of screenwriters "creative" casting choices while fans of other superheroes get to squeal in delight (or cringe in the case of Avenger's Cap) when on set photos of their favorite heroes in full costume are revealed?

FOX should understand that if you treat your property as one that is less important than your competition in the growing superhero film market, moviegoers are likely to take the same approach.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Let's not forget "cocky, ladies man" Johnny Storm. Though Chris Evans gave a fine performance in the Story movies, the character has just as often been written in the comics as insecure and unlucky in love.

Yeah, Evan's performance was fun, but it was definitely a departure from the character. Johnny did have a lot of different girlfriends, but it seemed clear in the comics that he wasn't bouncing from super-model one-night-stand to super-model one-night-stand as much as he was always looking for 'Ms. Right' . . . but something always got in the way - like she came from a race of superpowered mutants that didn't take kindly to him or she turned out to be a Skrull or something.

But that's the kind of update that I think isn't such a big deal. He was confident in his powers and young and attractive, and he did have a number of girlfriends, so that was a reasonable update. Johnny's love-life isn't critical to the team. (Other elements - such as the relative ages of the characters and Reed's leadership are critical elements to the team dynamic. )

But people come in here and claim that MBJ is perfect because he can play the character Evans invented rather than talking about how he'll play Johnny.

And that touches on why I think it's always important to go back to the originals and consider how updates to the originals have affected (for better or worse) those characters. It's like making a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy. You need to go back to the original and make sure you're not losing things along the way.