The Dark Knight So now that we have more info, what do you think of the Joker?

[sglass03]

I can understand some of the "outrage" on the level that it's a change to a longstanding character, but some of the claims that this is horrible or that people won't go see this film are just stupid- and no, I can't find a more decent phrase for it. It's completely illogical to make such a fuss over this. None of us know even the slightest thing about how Ledger's performance is yet outside of two lines of dialogue. While we don't have a lot of info to go by, it's silly to just cite change as the #1 source of ire.

Actually, from what I've seen, I think Ledger will be great as Joker. I like the voice, love the laugh, and from the marketing/quotes we've seen, it looks like they've gotten the character down pat.

If he's not all-white, I won't be outraged, but I just think it's an unecessary change that didn't need to be "real"-ified. I'm all for realism, but you don't have to go overboard in trying to explain/justify little details. If Joker is all-white, leave it be and let the audience decide why - maybe he's an albino, or was born with a skin defect, or got into some sort of accident, or maybe he does apply it? Chances are, they're in the theater to be entertained, so they won't care anyway. I just think it's fun to let the audience speculate, rather than suck all the air out of it and give us logical pieces and steps.

(By the way, I'd feel the same way if they actually showed us some sort of "chemical bath" origin. Just take a page from Batman #1 and let Joker - and Heath's characterization - speak for themselves.)

 

[Crook]

We've had

• a guy misappropriating military-created equipment in order to wage a vigilante's war on crime, in which he dresses like a flying mammal
• the police's inability to apprehend this vigilante
• a vehicular tank that practically flies across rooftops
• a centuries old cabal of terrorists, responsible for corrective disasters for perceived corrupt civilizations
• a created fear toxin that causes instantaneous mass hallucination and hysteria
• a microwave emitter that vaporizes a water supply, yet doesn't create resulting steam that would scald the skin
• and we're likely to see a dormant (or at least recessive) personality become dominant in a man when accompanying by the physical trauma of being scarred by acid

and you want to draw the line at the inherent realism of unknown chemicals on physical appearance, especially when its such a readily identifiable part of the character? Part of the enjoyment in this medium is things that aren't wholly realistic or don't fully make sense. It's part of the allure. Things can be grounded to an extent, but the bounds of reality need to be in some instances.

Quoted for truth.

 

[Tomar-Re]

We've had

• a guy misappropriating military-created equipment in order to wage a vigilante's war on crime, in which he dresses like a flying mammal
• the police's inability to apprehend this vigilante
• a vehicular tank that practically flies across rooftops
• a centuries old cabal of terrorists, responsible for corrective disasters for perceived corrupt civilizations
• a created fear toxin that causes instantaneous mass hallucination and hysteria
• a microwave emitter that vaporizes a water supply, yet doesn't create resulting steam that would scald the skin
• and we're likely to see a dormant (or at least recessive) personality become dominant in a man when accompanying by the physical trauma of being scarred by acid

and you want to draw the line at the inherent realism of unknown chemicals on physical appearance, especially when its such a readily identifiable part of the character? Part of the enjoyment in this medium is things that aren't wholly realistic or don't fully make sense. It's part of the allure. Things can be grounded to an extent, but the bounds of reality need to be in some instances.

yes.. what don't you understand about it?

 

[strider]

This version of Joker is PERFECT.

/thread

 

[The Dark Guybrush]

and you want to draw the line at the inherent realism of unknown chemicals on physical appearance, especially when its such a readily identifiable part of the character? Part of the enjoyment in this medium is things that aren't wholly realistic or don't fully make sense. It's part of the allure.

the allure of this franchise to me is how nolan digs a little deeper than most anyone else would, if given the chance, with these characters. if you were keep the joker permanently white, you're taking away the "masked" aspect of the character.. like bruce wayne chooses to put on his mask, the joker does the same. it's brilliant. and i'm almost positive that the harvey dent interplay with this will be amazing.... . ..

 

[sglass03]

I agree with Mr. J.

Nolan is attempting to ground these things, give them a little more logic, make them more serious - something Schumacher didn't do, and something that stands in direct contrast with the 60's Batman show.

But in no way is he trying to alter them to make them "real world" or entirely 100% plausible - a billionaire dressing like a bat, a clandestine crime organization with fear toxins and microwave emitters, a mask-wearing psychiatrist with a Scarecrow complex, Batarangs and the Tumbler - this is the stuff of comics, and Nolan didn't throw it away.

He's still being true to the characters - he's just trying to give them a more serious "gloss," if you will. Taking away the neon and adding substance. That's why I think they'll stay true to the Joker. It's obvious they have his personality down, and that someone's been reading the comics, because he is DEAD on. That's why I find Miranda and Anjow's spoiler to be plausible - I don't think they'd alter the character that much in favor of making him real-er.

In any case, it's been stated before, but we'll have to agree to disagree, because that's what these forums are here for.

 

[Mister J]

yes.. what don't you understand about it?

The whole choosing to ignore a distinguishing Joker trait in favor of 'realism' when there are far more glaring departures from reality.

 

[Spade]

I don't know about the "masked" aspect...what's always been the appeal for me is that the Joker isn't masked. That horror of a face is what he is both physically and on the inside- a twisted version of the humanity we all see in one another. I like that Nolan adapts these characters in befitting ways, but I wouldn't use that validation. That's sort of why I like the scarring- it's a similar concept but in a method that is both painful and a good way of seeding the hatred for Batman.

 

[sglass03]

To kind of develop what Chibi said, I think Nolan has already put his spin on Joker's whiteness by making him more "scarred" and raw, thereby making his bleaching more plausible. We're getting a gruesome, more urban Joker, there's no doubt about it - this isn't Ross' Joker, who looked like he walked off of Wall Street with perfectly-combed hair and pressed suits.

That would be interesting, but Nolan has still given us something to talk about - a modernized Joker who looks like some sort of city-based predator/serial killer, only still true to the original character. He's greasy, slimy, scarred, ugly, and a real nightmare, judging from the pics we've gotten. Maybe that's as far as Nolan is going to go in giving a new spin on the character?

 

[The Dark Guybrush]

I don't know about the "masked" aspect...what's always been the appeal for me is that the Joker isn't masked. That horror of a face is what he is both physically and on the inside- a twisted version of the humanity we all see in one another. I like that Nolan adapts these characters in befitting ways, but I wouldn't use that validation. That's sort of why I like the scarring- it's a similar concept but in a method that is both painful and a good way of seeding the hatred for Batman.

i think for this film, nolan & co. are using this to blur the line that batman sees between himself and the joker. they both wear masks, but they have different agendas.. just like alfred states in the teaser..

 

[Mister J]

the allure of this franchise to me is how nolan digs a little deeper than most anyone else would, if given the chance, with these characters. if you were keep the joker permanently white, you're taking away the "masked" aspect of the character.. like bruce wayne chooses to put on his mask, the joker does the same. it's brilliant. and i'm almost positive that the harvey dent interplay with this will be amazing.... . ..

Could you explain a bit more what you mean by 'masked' in relation to the Joker? Bruce needs to wear a mask; he operates in two different worlds. If he were to always act in the Batman persona, he'd lose himself ("in the monster" as Alfred alluded to. Joker's already there. He a bat**** crazy, attention ****e whose looking to 'perform'. He doesn't do anything else. There's certainly a duality to explore in the two theatrical personalities, but I've always liked that Bruce has managed to hold on to his humanity while Joker's just lost. I suppose I'd like to see that maintained in this adaptation.

 

[Carnotaur3]

We've had
a guy misappropriating military-created equipment in order to wage a vigilante's war on crime, in which he dresses like a flying mammal
the police's inability to apprehend this vigilante
a vehicular tank that practically flies across rooftops
a centuries old cabal of terrorists, responsible for corrective disasters for perceived corrupt civilizations
a created fear toxin that causes instantaneous mass hallucination and hysteria
a microwave emitter that vaporizes a water supply, yet doesn't create resulting steam that would scald the skin
and we're likely to see a dormant (or at least recessive) personality become dominant in a man when accompanying by the physical trauma of being scarred by acid
and you want to draw the line at the inherent realism of unknown chemicals on physical appearance, especially when its such a readily identifiable part of the character? Part of the enjoyment in this medium is things that aren't wholly realistic or don't fully make sense. It's part of the allure. Things can be grounded to an extent, but the bounds of reality need to be in some instances.

He's not making them realistic... he's making them believible. There's a difference between someone making a device that evaporates water (or a man who dresses up as a bat to fight crime) and a chemical bath. For one thing, to receive a face that looks exactly like a clown for bathing in unknown chemicals isn't believible in any sense of the word. As far away from plausible and the worst happenstance ever.

 

[Crook]

I'm just wondering, those explaining this "it's more realistic" angle....what will you say if Nolan does end up turning things around and have Joker be perma-white after all?

What then?

 

[The Dark Guybrush]

Could you explain a bit more what you mean by 'masked' in relation to the Joker? Bruce needs to wear a mask; he operates in two different worlds. If he were to always act in the Batman persona, he'd lose himself ("in the monster" as Alfred alluded to. Joker's already there. He a bat**** crazy, attention ****e whose looking to 'perform'. He doesn't do anything else. There's certainly a duality to explore in the two theatrical personalities, but I've always liked that Bruce has managed to hold on to his humanity while Joker's just lost. I suppose I'd like to see that maintained in this adaptation.

i think by batman seeing the joker go out of his way to make himself terrifying to others, "theatrical", if you will.. he'll see a little bit of himself in that, or at least what he could become if driven or pushed far enough... the limits to which the joker may very well take him by the end of the film.

 

[Juanigi]

I'm just wondering, those explaining this "it's more realistic" angle....what will you say if Nolan does end up turning things around and have Joker be perma-white after all?

What then?

then at least he'll have portrayed the effects of a chemical bath on a mouth realistically

 

[Carnotaur3]

I'm just wondering, those explaining this "it's more realistic" angle....what will you say if Nolan does end up turning things around and have Joker be perma-white after all?

What then?

I can still live with it. I've already lived with it for B89. But seeing as how he looks to have painted his face, it's not gonna happen.

 

[The Dark Guybrush]

I'm just wondering, those explaining this "it's more realistic" angle....what will you say if Nolan does end up turning things around and have Joker be perma-white after all?

What then?

i'm not gonna whine and moan about it.
but-
it's not gonna happen.
in the last official pic, with the knife- look at ledger's skin beneath and around his hairline, and on his eyelids, where the black has rubbed off.. all natural..
UNLESS-- he's got three coats (flesh, white/black/red, purple suit).

 

[Spade]

I don't know about "realistic"- I like the realism, but like some people I draw a line when it starts to inhibit the characters severely. But if he does have permanently white flesh, it won't matter to me. To me, his appearance as it is happens to be a minor detail to whether this is the kind of performance that makes me applaud or boo.

 

[coolhandluc]

From what ive seen it looks awesome. Still not sure about his voice. It is starting to grow alittle. The thing is the picture that was showen today with Rachel looks different from the spy pics and the one shot of nolan directing Ledger. In those pics his skin looks whiter and his lips look more red. Anyone else get that impression

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I am loving the Joker. He seems like the most fully realized comic villain by far.

 

[Crook]

i think by batman seeing the joker go out of his way to make himself terrifying to others, "theatrical", if you will.. he'll see a little bit of himself in that, or at least what he could become if driven or pushed far enough... the limits to which the joker may very well take him by the end of the film.

Have we forgotten how Joker is supposed to be Batman's antithesis? Literally in every form of the lore, it's always been that way. Never has it been a relationship regarding masks or identity, but a clash in goals and ideals.

Penguin said it best, and if it weren't for BR, this line would have been perfect for TDK:

"You're just jealous, because I'm a genuine freak, and you have to wear a mask"

 

[Tomar-Re]

To me, his appearance as it is happens to be a minor detail to whether this is the kind of performance that makes me applaud or boo.

In the end i feel the same way. I'm more interested in the nature of the beast.
I'm really stoked on this Joker

 

[sglass03]

I agree that Joker has looked different in almost every shot we've gotten. Sometimes he's whiter, sometimes his hair is greener, sometimes not. The spy reports have all been conflicting, no two really agreeing on every detail.

I guess we won't know the truth until the film comes out - which is why I can't see anyone banking on whether he's all-white or not. Sure he looks like he applies just a thin coat of white to his face in the official pics, but we've gotten reports from RELIABLE sources that he is, in fact, all-white. That he is, and I quote, "not what he seems." Then again, those sources could be mistaken. Let's just wait until the film hits.

 

[DSET]

He's not making them realistic... he's making them believible. There's a difference between someone making a device that evaporates water (or a man who dresses up as a bat to fight crime) and a chemical bath. For one thing, to receive a face that looks exactly like a clown for bathing in unknown chemicals isn't believible in any sense of the word. As far away from plausible and the worst happenstance ever.

I agree
This is a reason is a why I and most of you should: live with the fact that his skin is not bleached. If this was a b89 and BR type film I would be annoyed that they are not staying true to the fantasy elements.

 

[The Dark Guybrush]

Have we forgotten how Joker is supposed to be Batman's antithesis? Literally in every form of the lore, it's always been that way. Never has it been a relationship regarding masks or identity, but a clash in goals and ideals.

Penguin said it best, and if it weren't for BR, this line would have been perfect for TDK:

"You're just jealous, because I'm a genuine freak, and you have to wear a mask"

you're missing my point. i am fully aware of how their goals & ideals differ, that's a no-brainer.... my point is that the makers of this film are trying to show us that these two characters are not too different, with the exception of their ideals, their differing values. you've got two people that have each suffered a great deal, the difference being that one was genuinely a good person at heart, the other person- not so much.

i'm speaking in circles. does any of this make sense to you?