The Dark Knight Rises TDKR SPOILERS (read at your own risk) - Part 4

[GalleryOfRogues]

So he just said...i dont care about my friends and the person that raised me for 20 years....let them go through suffering and mourning. Let them waste money with a plane ticket to Florence. A simple phone call would've been enough, right?

See what I mean?

I doubt Bruce would risk making a telephone call to Alfred - who knows who is listening in (remember the sonar machine from TDK?) i think Nolan's interpretation of how Bruce would've handled the situation is spot on - if you disagree that is your opinion. it may have taken you out of the movie, but you can't say it is illogical or forced. it is just Nolan's vision of the character.

i love how enigmatic all Bruce's clues were - except for with Alfred. Alfred, the person who took care of him for 20 years, is the only person who actually has real proof that Bruce is still alive. I'd say that would be a pretty fantastic way for Bruce to tell him that he was okay, and that Alfred's wish for Bruce to live a happy life had come true.

 

[UaalaDan]

The whole point is that he wanted Bruce Wayne to be dead so he could start a new life. Why is that so hard to understand? He could have called? "Oh hey guys I'm alive but keep it a secret. K thx bye never talking to you again. -Click- "

He still told them the truth 2 mins later in the movie. He told Fox the truth by telling him about the fixed auto-pilot, told Gordon by fixing the Signal, and Alfred saw him in Florence...It makes no sense when you think about it.

 

[UaalaDan]

I doubt Bruce would risk making a telephone call to Alfred - who knows who is listening in (remember the sonar machine from TDK?) i think Nolan's interpretation of how Bruce would've handled the situation is spot on - if you disagree that is your opinion. it may have taken you out of the movie, but you can't say it is illogical or forced. it is just Nolan's vision of the character.

i love how enigmatic all Bruce's clues were - except for with Alfred. Alfred, the person who took care of him for 20 years, is the only person who actually has real proof that Bruce is still alive. I'd say that would be a pretty fantastic way for Bruce to tell him that he was okay, and that Alfred's wish for Bruce to live a happy life had come true.

Fantastic in a cinematic way but it makes no sense when you think about it deeply like Nolan probably never did. He thought he was being smart by making Bruce fake his death and leave clues.

Great storytelling!

 

[GalleryOfRogues]

It makes perfect sense for a man who is as brilliant as Bruce to know that he cannot just tell people the truth and risk them letting others find out. He has to be subtle, and give them an indication that he is alive. Fox doesn't know if he was able to use the autopilot to escape the blast for sure and Gordon can't be sure that the Bat symbol was fixed by Bruce (perhaps it was this new masked vigilante who calls himself Nightwing...or Robin...or who looks a little bit smaller than Bruce did in the costume)

it's beautiful that Alfred, the only person Bruce ever really trusted, is the only one with clear evidence that Bruce is still alive.

 

[Broker]

He still told them the truth 2 mins later in the movie. He told Fox the truth by telling him about the fixed auto-pilot, told Gordon by fixing the Signal, and Alfred saw him in Florence...It makes no sense when you think about it.

You're argument is contradictory.

On the one hand you are saying it is inconsistant that he would leave them to mourn.

But on the other hand saying that he let them know he was alive almost immediately and that makes no sense.

Just what are you trying to say?

 

[GalleryOfRogues]

You're argument is contradictory.

On the one hand you are saying it is inconsistant that he would leave them to mourn.

But on the other hand saying that he let them know he was alive almost immediately and that makes no sense.

no, his argument is that he should've told them beforehand or right away - so that there was no need for them to mourn. but there was a need for them to mourn either way - Bruce Wayne the man is no more.

 

[RedIsNotBlue]

He still told them the truth 2 mins later in the movie. He told Fox the truth by telling him about the fixed auto-pilot, told Gordon by fixing the Signal, and Alfred saw him in Florence...It makes no sense when you think about it.

No you are the only one making no sense right now. I thought you were just complaining about how Bruce didn't tell them that he was still alive? Bruce wanted to die and be reborn with a clean slate. It really boils down to that. You are over complicating it.

 

[GalleryOfRogues]

at least that's how i took it, sorry to sound like i'm passing judgement or putting words in someone else's mouth, i just like to be fair... that is at least the way i interpreted the argument.

 

[Broker]

no, his argument is that he should've told them beforehand or right away - so that there was no need for them to mourn. but there was a need for them to mourn either way - Bruce Wayne the man is no more.

Indeed, and to a degree it was important that they believed this because their reaction would convince Gotham and the World of his death.

 

[GalleryOfRogues]

Indeed, and to a degree it was important that they believed this becaus etheir reaction would convince Gotham and the World of his death.

I agree you can look at it that way, but I don't think they're mourning was meant to be another element of theatricality, i think it was simply necessary for them go through a mourning process to bury the man they once knew. it's interesting, we don't know for sure when the burial scene with gordon and alfred speaking actually takes place. could've been after they had received their clues from that he was still alive.

it would give the scene a whole new meaning - that they were burying the spirit of Bruce Wayne, knowing that the man was still alive somewhere out in the world.

 

[GalleryOfRogues]

it's interesting, we don't know for sure when the burial scene with gordon and alfred speaking actually takes place. could've been after they had received their clues from that he was still alive.

it would give the scene a whole new meaning - that they were burying the spirit of Bruce Wayne, knowing that the man was still alive somewhere out in the world.

this is obviously wild speculation, but i just thought it could be interesting to think about

 

[GalleryOfRogues]

Fantastic in a cinematic way but it makes no sense when you think about it deeply like Nolan probably never did. He thought he was being smart by making Bruce fake his death and leave clues.

Great storytelling!

fantastic in a cinematic way...haha. sorry it just seems funny that you're criticizing a cinematic production for having a fantastic cinematic conclusion.

perhaps we should just agree to disagree about the logic behind the final scenes?

 

[Broker]

we don't know for sure when the burial scene with gordon and alfred speaking actually takes place. could've been after they had received their clues from that he was still alive.

I see the interpretation, but I think we are meant to witness Alfred genuinely distraught at the death of his 'son.'

 

[GalleryOfRogues]

agreed, but just something to think about

 

[GalleryOfRogues]

did anyone notice any other allusions to any other villains like the Mr. Reese -> Mysteries -> Riddler allusion in TDK?

 

[GalleryOfRogues]

i'd like to take a closer look at the crowds gathering at Crane's kangaroo court. wonder if there were any other villains hanging around to see the "good people" of Gotham condemned to death/death by exile

 

[Herolee10]

You know, the irony is that while the old man in the prison had told Bruce that the only way that he could survive his next encounter with Bane, let alone getting out of the pit, is by learning to have fear again and the will to live..it was because of him having no will to live that allowed him to survive his first encounter with Bane since Bane told Bruce that the only reason why Bane left him alive and didn't physically torture him was because there wasn't a hint or trace of Bruce caring about his body anymore.

 

[craigdbfan]

There is ironic isn't it?

Wayne in a way was asking for someone to end his life. He wanted a mercy killing and Bane saw through that. It would have been an empty victory for Bane had he killed him but by letting him live Wayne found the will to live and regain fear in the sense of having to let and live with knowing that his entire city fell to its knees and died in a purging fire. Killing his few allies and the people he fought so hard to protect.

I really liked how this movie showed us that having fear can sometimes be a useful tool.

 

[Havok83]

And how was Bruce's death explained?

Its not too hard to imagine that he was shot up or killed by any number of the various criminals that were let loose.

 

[spider-neil]

I'm listening to a podcast and apparantly in the comics there is an incarnation of Batman who is John Blake, okay, so why the heck did Nolan call him Robin?

 

[Reikowolf]

There is ironic isn't it?

Wayne in a way was asking for someone to end his life. He wanted a mercy killing and Bane saw through that. It would have been an empty victory for Bane had he killed him but by letting him live Wayne found the will to live and regain fear in the sense of having to let and live with knowing that his entire city fell to its knees and died in a purging fire. Killing his few allies and the people he fought so hard to protect.

I really liked how this movie showed us that having fear can sometimes be a useful tool.

agreed. especially for Batman.

Fear is his primary tool against his enemies.

 

[craigdbfan]

It's just funny how he needed to instill that fear into himself again. He had lost the will to live and found it again in wanting to save the people of Gotham. His approach was twisted.

He had the determination to save Gotham, but his feelings were misplaced by not caring if he lived or died. He needed to have the desire to live to be able to rise out of that pit and fear that he might die along the process. That "desire" to live and fear of dying is one of our most primal and instinctual forms of preservation.

Honestly the pit scenes with Tom Conti and the doctor might have been one of my favorite parts.

 

[Micromind]

There is ironic isn't it?

Wayne in a way was asking for someone to end his life. He wanted a mercy killing and Bane saw through that. It would have been an empty victory for Bane had he killed him

And when Bane fights with Batman second time where Batman beats Bane and cuts some pipes feeding anesthetic to his mask but then Taila comes and stabs Batman and then fixes Bane's mask which allows Bane to get up again to fight Batman, here Talia asks Bane not to Kill Batman but "let him face heat", but Bane says " You know that I have to kill you" to Bats.

This shows that now Bane fears Bats and letting him live as now Batman has a will to live, he is now different than the Batman Bane faced in the earlier encounter.

 

[kthevs]

Anyone have the official novel yet?

 

[Reikowolf]

And when Bane fights with Batman second time where Batman beats Bane and cuts some pipes feeding anesthetic to his mask but then Taila comes and stabs Batman and then fixes Bane's mask which allows Bane to get up again to fight Batman, here Talia asks Bane not to Kill Batman but "let him face heat", but Bane says " You know that I have to kill you" to Bats.

This shows that now Bane fears Bats and letting him live as now Batman has a will to live, he is now different than the Batman Bane faced in the earlier encounter.

I have mentioned this a few times already but the way the Pit was seen as an allegory to the Well young Bruce Wayne fell into in BB was well done

not to mention the way it also serves as an adaptation of the Lazarus Pit.

Ras Al Ghul was reborn in the pit through his heir, Talia

Batman was broken by Bane, which allowed for Bruce Wayne to be reborn in the pit.

incidentally, Bane never expected that Bruce would survive, in his own words "Impossible"

I feel that instilled the first signs of fear in Bane, as he realized that Bruce Wayne is more than just Batman. That and the knowledge that Bane needed the mask to function was what gave Batman the upper hand in their fight.