The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part 6

[starscream22]

I'll add another bit of news (that had slipped under my own radar, only read about it today tbh) that might be a factor in these new developments too (if any end up being true):

On 26th Sept, the last working day before the Supreme Court were gonna decide if they would hear the Kirby Estate appeal against Marvel, both parties agreed on a confidential settlement. It was thought the corporate might of the mouse would likely still win the case even if it went to the SC, though some doubt existed as the Kirby case had gained increasing support from other organisations. The Mouse, having far more to lose than the Kirby's (basically, billions Vs nothing), decided to settle rather than take a chance, however slim it may have been, so it's all done with now.

But the thing is had it gone to the SC and had Marvel lost, it's not just them who would have been buggered. Both of Fox's Marvel properties (FF and the expansive X-Men) would have been lost to Marvel which in turn would have rendered Fox's contracts fubared as well (the termination notices the Kirby's issued were to all the studios who held Marvel characters as well, even Sony with Spider-man, though Jack had bugger all to do with his creation).

Anyways, this would have meant everyone would have to make new deals with the Kirby Estate. There would no doubt have been further years of expensive litigation...it would have been a complete mess.

So why do I think this could have been a factor? Everyone had something to gain from the settlement. Marvel being the biggest settle any doubts, Fox's contracts hold, and the Kirby's presumably were given a sufficient reward for their efforts on the great man's behalf.

So fast forward a week and all this new stuff starts coming out. Fox actively looking at doing a live action TV Show, Disney apparently re-releasing all the Star Wars, and even the crossover talk has come back into town.

This seemed all out of bounds before now. Even those at Fox talking of such things backed down later, but now they are back on the table? A week after the settlement?

Can't help but wonder if Disney & Fox might well have quietly got into bed over this one. They were the 2 with the most to lose had the case gone ahead and was lost.

That is a very interesting point. If nothing else, the legal case may have required the involved parties to talk. And after they started talking maybe they started thinking about things they could do to help everybody work toward their goals more effectively - that could be part of the reason we had the other big story . . . rumored talks between Sony and Marvel with potential inclusion of Spider-Man in the Marvel Universe.

The Kirby case may very well have been a catalyst that got previously stalled talks moving.

. . . also . . . settling the Kirby case may have made Disney more willing to make deals they wouldn't have made previously. For example, they might have been reluctant to write a big, fat check to Fox for the FF rights prior to the settlement only to have a lien placed on those rights by the Kirby estate.

Once there was a settlement, they would know they stood on firm ground with any rights they did acquire.

Wow.................Do you guys ever stop to wonder if the execs, CEO's or other "Powers that be" are reading these forums at times shaking their heads at comments that are spot on or even close to the truth like, "Huh, if only you knew..."

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Wow.................Do you guys ever stop to wonder if the execs, CEO's or other "Powers that be" are reading these forums at times shaking their heads at comments that are spot on or even close to the truth like, "Huh, if only you knew..."

The company I work for is supplier to a motorcycle manufacturer and I have had inside information on upcoming models. It's a LOT of fun to read speculation on upcoming models on discussion forums when I know what's going on behind the scenes.t:

Some of it is crazy, but some of it hits pretty close - though often the closest speculation has wacky reasoning that arrives at a true conclusion via a false path.

But it's all fun - and the criticism is sometimes hurtful. I try to keep that in mind with my criticism, though I'm afraid I don't always control my emotions as well as I should.

 

[Iceman]

I know absolutely nothing but I can feel something big happening!

 

[starscream22]

Here's another off-the wall thought (and in the vacuum of information there are thousands of possibilities) what if Kirby's estate forced some kind of cooperation as part of the settlement?

These properties have more monetary value and value to Kirby's legacy if they are combined. Kirby's estate may have required some sharing of the properties with them getting some percentage of the fruits of that cooperation.

We're always talking about how Marvel's contracts created the problems Marvel now has to deal with. Kirby's estate may have re-opened those contracts because Marvel signed away rights they didn't solely own.

The possibilities are endless but intriguing.

HA!

It brings a whole knew respect to the overall situation. Who knew the comic book business could breed so much potential strife compounded with greed and power struggles that could rival the very comic books.

What would Kirby's estate gain having FOX, Sony and Disney play nice?

What is the Kirby's overall stance? You'd think it'd be with Disney-Marvel once the dust settled but who knows....

Are the Kirby's all just a bunch of spoiled, entitled "Hilton Sister" types who have no real loyalty except to the highest bidder?

Funny....the only stock we all have in this is simply being entertained for about 2hrs. Meanwhile there's possibly some really life Dallas/Dynasty/Scandal type drama going on behind the scenes. And with billions being on the table why not throw some Soprano's drama in there to!

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

how much exactly is the budget?

The highest number I heard tossed around was $100 million. That may sound like a lot but it's $30 million less than the last FF film from seven years ago and the typical budget for these kind of films these days is $170 million and up. And the way this thing was filmed sight unseen in front of a green screen in a warehouse with a small cast with no big names I'd be surprised to learn if it cost half that much. I imagine most of the money will probably go to post production but even on that front there have been articles about how Trank is cutting costs by not buying his own hardware but using the cloud to generate all their SFX. Chronicle's budget was only $12 million so it's obvious why Fox hired him. They certainly appear to be trying to invest as little money in this as possible.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

What if . . .


Disney gets Star Wars, Galactus and Surfer. Fox gets TV rights for X-Men and permission to cross-over?

As an FF fan, I wouldn't be thrilled with that, but based on what we know, it's a possibility.

Well that's what Marvel made a play for back in 2012 when they offered to extend the Daredevil rights so it wouldn't surprise me. It's better than nothing and as a Silver Surfer fan I'd be pleased. It would absolutely open up the cosmic possibilities in the MCU. I think Galactus is just going to rot at Fox. They had their chance to use him and they blew it. But not having Reed Richards and Ben Grimm in the MCU is a big disappointment - as they are two of my favorite Marvel characters. And Teller playing Reed just depresses me. But yeah it would still kind of suck but it would suck less than the current situation.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

With all this chatter, you guys are definitely keeping "hope alive" though.

 

[fantasticfan]

Ragnrockroll....C'mon, really?? I thought we were all getting along so well! Was starting to feel a little positivity! Do you have any basis for your "in front of a green screen, in a warehouse" allegation? Seriously? The good people of Baton Rouge would probably disagree with your description of their amazing film facilities (Celtic). And where exactly is the actual budget published? And the blurb I read recently, as you obviously did as well, about Trank's cost saving technology seemed cutting edge and just plain smart, not cheap! They have some of the best VFX and SFX people in the industry on board as well. Why bother hiring those people? They must be expensive! There are plenty of PR/marketing issues, I totally agree, but I really don't buy the cheaping out argument.

 

[Farren]

Ragnrockroll....C'mon, really?? I thought we were all getting along so well! Was starting to feel a little positivity! Do you have any basis for your "in front of a green screen, in a warehouse" allegation? Seriously? The good people of Baton Rouge would probably disagree with your description of their amazing film facilities (Celtic). And where exactly is the actual budget published? And the blurb I read recently, as you obviously did as well, about Trank's cost saving technology seemed cutting edge and just plain smart, not cheap! They have some of the best VFX and SFX people in the industry on board as well. Why bother hiring those people? They must be expensive! There are plenty of PR/marketing issues, I totally agree, but I really don't buy the cheaping out argument.

Just speaking for myself, but, with respect to the filming location, it's not that there's anything wrong with Baton Rouge itself, but the fact that:

1) Production seems to have ended up there because it was considered a cheap option (which just fuels the concern that this movie is being done cheaply and without any ambition),

and

2) We didn't get any paparazzi/fan/etc reports or candids of them filming outside, which suggests they didn't do a lot of it and certainly none of the kind that would attract attention (like action scenes). Shooting on location takes a lot more work (and AFAIK more $$$$), so again this may suggest a possible lack of ambition and a proper budget.

 

[RAE072]

Was starting to feel a little positivity!

Why do you need to feel positivity regarding this movie?

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

Just speaking for myself, but, with respect to the filming location, it's not that there's anything wrong with Baton Rouge itself, but the fact that:

1) Production seems to have ended up there because it was considered a cheap option (which just fuels the concern that this movie is being done cheaply and without any ambition),

and

2) We didn't get any paparazzi/fan/etc reports or candids of them filming outside, which suggests they didn't do a lot of it and certainly none of the kind that would attract attention (like action scenes). Shooting on location takes a lot more work (and AFAIK more $$$$), so again this may suggest a possible lack of ambition and a proper budget.

This pretty much sums up my feelings. It's not like there's anything wrong with these different things in and of themselves but taken all together it's just obvious to me that Fox is trying to produce this film as cheaply as possible. A bigger budget doesn't mean a better film of course but given the material we're dealing with and the amount of SFX a proper FF film requires it's a cause for concern and particularly when you compare it to other budgets for similar films it seems like the FF are absolutely getting slighted here. Combined with the secrecy surrounding this project as if Fox was ashamed of it or something I can't help but be cynical.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

What's crazy is that even if they Marvel didn't have any immediate plans for F4, having their characters in the MCU fold could make their MCU Cosmic-verse even bigger than Star Wars if done right.

+ Annihilation
+ War of Kings
+ Cancer-verse
+ Silver Surfer spin off
+ Annihilators spin off
+ Trial of Galactus
+ Skrull/Kree War
+ Korvac War
+ Nova Spin off

And on.... and on....and on!

Whereas Star Wars to me has always been kind of a one trick pony.

Well I think Star Wars has huge potential and understand why Disney would extend themselves for the property... but outside of that, yes I agree completely. I also shudder at the thought of Fox ever possibly segueing into the cosmic front leading up to two separate bastardized Marvel cosmic universes. It all seems highly redundant to me and severely dilutes the brand. Meanwhile DC will probably make an attempt at delivering their own "cosmic" aspect with Darkseid, the New Gods etc. so it gets even more crowded. So you'd basically have Star Wars, MCU cosmic, DC cosmic, "Fox cosmic" and heck throw Star Trek in there too while you're at it. I fail to see how they are all going to distinguish themselves enough to sustain sufficient audience demand.

 

[Orba]

2) We didn't get any paparazzi/fan/etc reports or candids of them filming outside, which suggests they didn't do a lot of it and certainly none of the kind that would attract attention (like action scenes). Shooting on location takes a lot more work (and AFAIK more $$$$), so again this may suggest a possible lack of ambition and a proper budget.

I've been trying to think of what we have so far. There was the candids of a bunch of the cast together in casual clothing and maybe a couple of photos of girls having their photos with Teller. Then there was the photo of the building with the "Baxter Institute" sign on it but none of the cast, which could mean that it was second unit work. I think there was one road closure but no photos ever came from it, not even the Baton Rouge press seemed to be interested in the film. Most likely it was just some outdoor street conversations, I do remember the call sheets at one point mentioning something about street racers during the shooting but the section of road closed off was not big enough for a street racing scene (unless the scene was just a bunch of racers hanging out together without the main characters being involved in the racing).

 

[starscream22]

Well I think Star Wars has huge potential and understand why Disney would extend themselves for the property... but outside of that, yes I agree completely. I also shudder at the thought of Fox ever possibly segueing into the cosmic front leading up to two separate bastardized Marvel cosmic universes. It all seems highly redundant to me and severely dilutes the brand. Meanwhile DC will probably make an attempt at delivering their own "cosmic" aspect with Darkseid, the New Gods etc. so it gets even more crowded. So you'd basically have Star Wars, MCU cosmic, DC cosmic, "Fox cosmic" and heck throw Star Trek in there too while you're at it. I fail to see how they are all going to distinguish themselves enough to sustain sufficient audience demand.

I don't see how they wouldn't if done right. "Fox-cosmic" I'm not too worried about. They're so many years behind Marvel it's pathetic! And we wont' likely being seeing Darksied on film this decade. Startrek comes out what every three or four years?

I retract the "one trick pony" line other than Fox, I'd support all the other ones you've mentioned.

No one's pushing out those "American Idol" copies or all those "Real House Wife/ Badgirls club" reality show that litter cable T.V. so why be against a few new "Quality" Comic franchises?

 

[Orba]

Yeah I'm not too worried about Fox trying to go cosmic, the X-Men films are too busy focusing on mutant vs human stories to be interested in going cosmic (if it would even fit with the FoX-Men universe). The Fantastic Four franchise is about the only one that might stand a chance of going cosmic but again I don't think that the cosmic side is something that Fox are interested in doing with the franchise if they are trying to stick with "grounded" since the Fantastic Four's adventures in the comics are more Jules Verne than 2001. The only way I could see Fox going cosmic would be through a separate Silver Surfer series, pretty much unconnected to the other films.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

DC has already 'gone cosmic' in a way with Zod and Superman, haven't they?

It might actually not be a bad strategy for Fox to stay more (I shudder at even saying this word and the broader implication) . . . grounded to set themselves apart from the others. A lot of cool, earth-imperiling stories can be told without bringing in aliens. As an FF fan, I don't like the idea of the property that was key in originating the idea of the cosmic comic-book being stifled by a studio like Fox - but I can understand the strategy in terms of differentiating themselves from the others. Some viewers probably like the idea of relatively simple heroes that don't get involved with space creatures and other worlds.

Of course one of the big problems with that is (unless some deal has been made that we don't know about yet), Fox owns two of the biggest cosmic characters out there.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

I guess I just worry about over saturation of the market to the point that audiences become burnt out on all this stuff and then the genre suffers as a whole.

If each of these things can find a specific niche then I can see it all working. I think part of the problem with Spider-Man is it feels like just another superhero flick which outside of the popularity of the character itself kind of pales in comparison to the more exciting things going on elsewhere. The MCU has this amazingly rich and realized tapestry of interwoven characters and storylines across different "genres within the genre", X-Men's got the whole social commentary thing going on (not to mention a massive back catalog of non-utilized characters and even several characters they have severely under-utilized) and DC is going dark with their supposed "no jokes" policy. Although after watching the Flash pilot I have to question that rumor but films like Man of Steel and from what I've seen and heard about the new BvS film all seem to point to a much more serious take on the superhero mythos than Marvel - and whenever DC tries to be like Marvel they kind of fall flat IMO.

But where does the FF fit into all of this? Do we need more dark and gritty like DC and X-Men and do you do it by twisting the source material beyond recognition? We already have two Quicksilvers. Do we really need two Marvel universes where one has the Skrulls, Silver Surfer, Galactus, Uatu, the Shi'ar and the Brood and the other has the Skrulls, the Kree, Captain Marvel, Guardians of the Galaxy, the Nova Corps, the Celestials, Ego the Living Planet, Adam Warlock, Eternity, the Living Tribunal, Master Order and Lord Chaos, the various pantheons (Greco, Norse), the Sakaarans, the Eternals etc. etc.? Marvel certainly has more than enough to work with but won't Fox's cosmic version seem like an also-ran? And if they opt to stay "grounded" with their brand of Fantastic Four then how sad is it that a character as awesome as Galactus has to sit this whole thing out?

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

DC has already 'gone cosmic' in a way with Zod and Superman, haven't they?

Yeah I guess you could say that but I don't see how you can have a Superman story without Krypton. And even so that's just aliens at this point. By bringing in things like Dr. Strange, Adam Warlock and the various pantheons, Marvel has the opportunity to take this into a whole other level of "weird". But good weird.

When DC brings in the New Gods I'll consider it official cosmic.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

I guess I just worry about over saturation of the market to the point that audiences become burnt out on all this stuff and then the genre suffers as a whole.

If each of these things can find a specific niche then I can see it all working. I think part of the problem with Spider-Man is it feels like just another superhero flick which outside of the popularity of the character itself kind of pales in comparison to the more exciting things going on elsewhere. The MCU has this amazingly rich and realized tapestry of interwoven characters and storylines across different "genres within the genre", X-Men's got the whole social commentary thing going on (not to mention a massive back catalog of non-utilized characters and even several characters they have severely under-utilized) and DC is going dark with their supposed "no jokes" policy. Although after watching the Flash pilot I have to question that rumor but films like Man of Steel and from what I've seen and heard about the new BvS film all seem to point to a much more serious take on the superhero mythos than Marvel - and whenever DC tries to be like Marvel they kind of fall flat IMO.

But where does the FF fit into all of this? Do we need more dark and gritty like DC and X-Men and do you do it by twisting the source material beyond recognition? We already have two Quicksilvers. Do we really need two Marvel universes where one has the Skrulls, Silver Surfer, Galactus, Uatu, the Shi'ar and the Brood and the other has the Skrulls, the Kree, Captain Marvel, Guardians of the Galaxy, the Nova Corps, the Celestials, Ego the Living Planet, Adam Warlock, Eternity, the Living Tribunal, Master Order and Lord Chaos, the various pantheons (Greco, Norse), the Sakaarans, the Eternals etc. etc.? Marvel certainly has more than enough to work with but won't Fox's cosmic version seem like an also-ran? And if they opt to stay "grounded" with their brand of Fantastic Four then how sad is it that a character as awesome as Galactus has to sit this whole thing out?

This is why the world would just be a better place with FF at Marvel. And I honestly think that if I were at Fox, I'd let them have all that freaky, space stuff (including FF and Galactus) and focus on building the X-Men as a very unique set of heroes.

FF doesn't add anything to the world Fox is creating and they just muddy the waters (and make Fox's world more like DC and Marvel's).

I just wish Marvel would give Fox Merchandising rights to X-Men and Fox would give FF back and everything would be better in every way.

. . . but I guess that's just beating a dead horse.

 

[Orba]

Hmm.

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/10...mutants-for-january-2015-where-now-the-x-men/

If this is happening as they think then this would definitely be a further escalation of things between Disney and Fox, and certainly would cast doubt over any deal having been made unless it is something extremely recent.

 

[Orba]

Just wondering is Quicksilver still a mutant? I thought I remembered him loosing his powers on M Day and eventually getting new ones from Terrigen crystals he stole from the Inhumans.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

This is why the world would just be a better place with FF at Marvel. And I honestly think that if I were at Fox, I'd let them have all that freaky, space stuff (including FF and Galactus) and focus on building the X-Men as a very unique set of heroes.

FF doesn't add anything to the world Fox is creating and they just muddy the waters (and make Fox's world more like DC and Marvel's).

Yeah I agree. The X-Men always kind of struck me as sort of a separate universe in the comics anyway. Fox should put all of their energy into that. Hopefully Marvel has demonstrated what an untapped gold mine the source material can be especially when translated with a powerful vision. The FF is really tangential to what the X-Men are all about and investing in that franchise only distracts Fox from what they should be focusing on IMO.

I just wish Marvel would give Fox Merchandising rights to X-Men and Fox would give FF back and everything would be better in every way.

As far as what to barter? I certainly think Marvel should put the X-Men live action TV rights on the table (they're never going to use them anyway) but I'm not sure about Marvel giving away the merchandising. I could see them handing over rights for X-Men film related merchandising only (NOT X-Men character merchandising) with some kind of profit sharing but not full control. I think those two things could be enticing for Fox - especially with the explosion of CBM themed television lately and the recent buzz about Fox wanting an X-Factor show.

In exchange, Marvel would get back FF, Galactus, Silver Surfer and maybe the Brood or Shi'ar. I just don't see Fox using those last two so why hold on to them?

Great for Marvel fans but the problem here is I don't think that's enough for mama Disney. They probably want full Star Wars control so as unhappy as I would be about it, I wouldn't be surprised if we discovered they allowed an FF/X-Men crossover in exchange for Episode IV rights.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

As far as what to barter? I certainly think Marvel should put the X-Men live action TV rights on the table (they're never going to use them anyway) but I'm not sure about Marvel giving away the merchandising. I could see them handing over rights for X-Men film related merchandising only (NOT X-Men character merchandising) with some kind of profit sharing but not full control. I think those two things could be enticing for Fox - especially with the explosion of CBM themed television lately and the recent buzz about Fox wanting an X-Factor show.

In exchange, Marvel would get back FF, Galactus, Silver Surfer and maybe the Brood or Shi'ar. I just don't see Fox using those last two so why hold on to them?

Great for Marvel fans but the problem here is I don't think that's enough for mama Disney. They probably want full Star Wars control so as unhappy as I would be about it, I wouldn't be surprised if we discovered they allowed an FF/X-Men crossover in exchange for Episode IV rights.

Let's start by defining my understanding of the current status and Marvel's philosophy (and I could be wrong on my assumptions, so that would change everything).

As I understand it, Marvel currently holds all the X-Men Merchandising rights, but they don't actually produce any X-Men products. That allows them to squeeze Fox and make the property less lucrative for them and fits my understanding of Marvel's philosophy - which is they want to do everything they can to get all their properties back.

If I were in charge, I think I'd start with the idea that X-Men probably isn't coming back until after I'm dead. With that in mind, I'd look at those merchandising rights and realize that, while they would be VERY valuable to Fox, they're currently worthless to me (Marvel). With that in mind combined with the idea that Fox is going to be making X-Men films for the next 20 years, I'd put them on the table. I'd let Fox make all the Toys, T-Shirts, coffee mugs etc. off of the film characters they want (with a small percentage coming back to Marvel) if I could, in return, get FF rights back.

Sure it would be giving Fox more control than the currently have, and that seems like a big no-no from Marvel's current philosophical viewpoint, but I'd seriously re-think that philosophy - particularly if it could help get the FF rights back. I would also (and this part would be very quiet) push the X-Men comics to a very low priority. I'd move my most talented artists and writers to books that are currently or will be soon in the MCU.

Who knows. Maybe Marvel has even offered that already, but if not, I would definitely put it on the table if I were them.

 

[Orba]

Let's start by defining my understanding of the current status and Marvel's philosophy (and I could be wrong on my assumptions, so that would change everything).

As I understand it, Marvel currently holds all the X-Men Merchandising rights, but they don't actually produce any X-Men products. That allows them to squeeze Fox and make the property less lucrative for them and fits my understanding of Marvel's philosophy - which is they want to do everything they can to get all their properties back.

If I were in charge, I think I'd start with the idea that X-Men probably isn't coming back until after I'm dead. With that in mind, I'd look at those merchandising rights and realize that, while they would be VERY valuable to Fox, they're currently worthless to me (Marvel). With that in mind combined with the idea that Fox is going to be making X-Men films for the next 20 years, I'd put them on the table. I'd let Fox make all the Toys, T-Shirts, coffee mugs etc. off of the film characters they want (with a small percentage coming back to Marvel) if I could, in return, get FF rights back.

Sure it would be giving Fox more control than the currently have, and that seems like a big no-no from Marvel's current philosophical viewpoint, but I'd seriously re-think that philosophy - particularly if it could help get the FF rights back. I would also (and this part would be very quiet) push the X-Men comics to a very low priority. I'd move my most talented artists and writers to books that are currently or will be soon in the MCU.

Who knows. Maybe Marvel has even offered that already, but if not, I would definitely put it on the table if I were them.

I'm not sure Marvel would want to hand all control over to Fox, I would think that they would want to retain some control over the merchandising. Otherwise there could be a chance of Fox pumping out a load of cheap crap or making things that marvel are already selling. But I could see them restarting merchandising based on the films and giving more control to Fox, with a veto option if they feel that the product could damage the brand.

 

[Dasher10]

What about Marvel agreeing to produce merch for Fox films in exchange for the Shi'Ar and Brood? The Guardians and Ms. Marvel get fleshed out more and both companies benefit from marketing the X-Men. If I were Marvel, I'd wait for FF to come out first, then bid for them instead and wait until Fox has something more to offer if FF is a hit, possibly a crossover agreement where the two universes collide in a crossover.